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  #201  
Old 24.05.2017, 12:10
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Re: Explosion at Manchester Arena

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For me is it pretty simple: Mosques are the places where all of those terrorists were radicalized. Mosques are full of young people these days, including the many refugees. It's important what is said there - so I think foreign funding should be not accepted and German state funding needs to come with some conditions in regards of the values that are taught. And the state should occasionally check those... same in CH or the UK.
So are mosques the problem or is the ideology being taught there the problem?
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  #202  
Old 24.05.2017, 12:16
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Re: Explosion at Manchester Arena

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When the people of Manchester say "We will not let anyone change our lifestyle, it's exactly what I expect from them. They're used to being bombed.

Stuff this...Let's get some perspective here... This is a list of terrorist attacks that took place on British soil during my childhood, from the ages of 5 and 18. 28 terrorist incidents and we didn't change our lifestyle.
Yeah, 30 years ago. Times change. 30 years prior to these IRA bombings you could get locked up for being gay and there was racial segregation in the States.

Looking back 30 years and saying it was normal back then isn't an answer to anything.
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  #203  
Old 24.05.2017, 12:21
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Re: Explosion at Manchester Arena

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Is there a reformation movement going on? Is it successful?
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No.
I know.

I don't think that, as it is, we have it thought out. The only thing I see is a constant outrage of dellusional libs.

It is not us making a difference in our own level of safety and security (which are the criteria for quality life...see the influx of regufees). It is the folks chosing the living rooms and chosing their imams.

Mosques are important symbols. So is a handshake with your teacher, in one's new country.
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  #204  
Old 24.05.2017, 12:26
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Re: Explosion at Manchester Arena

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So are mosques the problem or is the ideology being taught there the problem?
The spectre of radical imams in radical mosques is a tabloid myth. The situation today is near zero tolerance in both mosques and amongst attendees, and that is pretty well self policed. The mosque committees are usually run by retired Muslims who don't want the aggro or any risk of being shut down, so they simply don't allow any trouble makers or controversial imams to preach there.

Even jihadis moan that the mosques are full of spooks/informants so the last place you want to plan anything is at a mosque, they are far safer conducting their war councils at a local KFC.
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  #205  
Old 24.05.2017, 12:35
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Re: Explosion at Manchester Arena

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Is there a reformation movement going on? Is it successful?
Before we pat ourselves on the back too much for having had a reformation, there are some interesting points I think we need to consider.

The Magna Carta is considered one of the most important pieces of legislation ever. Even in the countries that don't base their legal system on it, it is seen as a landmark achievement in the transition from autocratic rule towards a system recognizing human rights, accountability and democracy.

Yet if you go back to the time, the people who drafted the document were not guided by such high purpose but were just angry at the king about immediate grievances such as taxation and hunting and fishing rights. They wanted those fixed then and there. The document is inconsistent, is tiresome to read, and was clobbered together in a hurry by multiple authors whose objectives were not fully coordinated. They were acting out of self interest and not concern for humanity. The document took on quite a different role than none of them could have foreseen.

Likewise, Henry VIII was never driven by a need to make great reformational changes to the church or to fix perceived errors in theological teaching. He was just angry that the pope wouldn't annul his marriage and saw breaking away as the best way to fix that. It was an immediate problem and he had an immediate solution. He wasn't thinking about what would happen centuries later. So again today we have something that wasn't designed by great minds but just happened ad hoc.

When it comes to people like Luther, Calvin and Zwingli, I think there was an element of doing this for eternity and a higher purpose. It gets more complicated there.

But at least some landmark changes do not hapen by design but occur ad hoc. So maybe we shouldn't be asking, where is the Muslim Calvin and the Muslim Luther, but where is the Muslim Simon de Montfort and the Muslim Henry VIII.

And because they don't have that plan or ideology, we won't see them until after the fact. You recognize a tree by its fruits and not by its roots.
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  #206  
Old 24.05.2017, 12:42
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Re: Explosion at Manchester Arena

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So are mosques the problem or is the ideology being taught there the problem?
All religion is the problem, but that's another discussion thread.
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  #207  
Old 24.05.2017, 13:00
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Re: Explosion at Manchester Arena

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All religion is the problem, but that's another discussion thread.
The first step in solving a problem is to recognize that it exists
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  #208  
Old 24.05.2017, 13:18
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Re: Explosion at Manchester Arena

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All religion is the problem, but that's another discussion thread.
I think it got deleted, I can't find it anymore.
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  #209  
Old 24.05.2017, 13:27
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Re: Explosion at Manchester Arena

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All religion is the problem, but that's another discussion thread.
I thought the problem was about there not being brown sugar. And that's another discussion thread too.

And there was something about staring and also something about homeopathy. Different threads again.

Why should we let the fact that we are discussing different topics divide us?

Now what we need is that great unifying thread to show that all threads are one.

That, and free beer.
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  #210  
Old 24.05.2017, 13:34
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Re: Explosion at Manchester Arena

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You may have noticed that (against quite a lot of local resistance) the University of Fribourg is running courses on Islam for social workers, police, imams, etc.

I'm sure the UK has stuff like that but if it's infected with "no Islamophobia/let's surrender to fundamentalists" then it's completely pointless. What's needed is a proper language of resistance to the lies and the ideology that is used against our countries.

Remember, unlike the IRA, these people want a complete change to our society. That kids get influenced into it is a complete failure of our culture.
The "Welcome refugees! No Islamiphobia!" liberals don't seem to see the irony in the fact that they are welcoming people coming from an ingrained culture/religion with an extremely intolerant, anti-liberal, right-wing base.

But yes, "re-education" of Muslim migrants is going to be a monumental task for EU countries, and looks like they are only starting to realize this (if it's even possible)
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  #211  
Old 24.05.2017, 13:43
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Re: Explosion at Manchester Arena

The problem we know about and one partial solution, maybe, would be to spend more money on domestic defenses, services, health and education to protect and appease the population.

As it is, we go building large and mainly useless warships which will serve nothing but will prevent funding of essential services to a standard becoming of a nation such as the UK.

A disgruntle and disillusioned populace will allow the breeding of radicalism as a form of hope and the consequential results. Many of these young people who have been radicalized are not the sharpest knives in the box, they are malleable and easily fooled leading to such attacks as Manchester, Lee Rigby, London, Berlin, Paris, Nice, Stockholm & the rest.

Fortunately for us, as they are not so sharp, they mainly get caught, but by sods' law alone, a few will get through. It seems these slightly more razor edged ones are already known to the police and security services who appear unable to do anything due to lack of funding.

With proper funding i think far more attacks would be thwarted in infancy before anything serious could happen.
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  #212  
Old 24.05.2017, 13:51
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Re: Explosion at Manchester Arena

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Yeah, 30 years ago. Times change. 30 years prior to these IRA bombings you could get locked up for being gay and there was racial segregation in the States.

Looking back 30 years and saying it was normal back then isn't an answer to anything.
“He who doesn't understand history is doomed to repeat it.”
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  #213  
Old 24.05.2017, 13:56
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Re: Explosion at Manchester Arena

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As it is, we go building large and mainly useless warships which will serve nothing but will prevent funding of essential services to a standard becoming of a nation such as the UK.
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  #214  
Old 24.05.2017, 14:13
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Re: Explosion at Manchester Arena

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You really think 2 aircraft carriers, one of which will be immediately mothballed, the other not having any aircraft with a very limited defensive force around the carrier, which lets be honest, all alone would be an easy target to sink will prevent Vladimir from anything ?

Armed forces and defensive, you either have to do properly or not at all, but half measures are total waste of money and this is what the UK is currently trying to do.

You cannot save money here, you either do it or you don't do it.
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  #215  
Old 24.05.2017, 15:17
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Re: Explosion at Manchester Arena

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You really think 2 aircraft carriers, one of which will be immediately mothballed, the other not having any aircraft with a very limited defensive force around the carrier, which lets be honest, all alone would be an easy target to sink will prevent Vladimir from anything ?

Armed forces and defensive, you either have to do properly or not at all, but half measures are total waste of money and this is what the UK is currently trying to do.

You cannot save money here, you either do it or you don't do it.
True but illustrating your post with a picture of Vladimir who has a grand total of one aircraft carrier gives a mixed message
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  #216  
Old 24.05.2017, 15:33
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Re: Explosion at Manchester Arena

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True but illustrating your post with a picture of Vladimir who has a grand total of one aircraft carrier gives a mixed message
He has one and it works (sometimes) he also has a big enough support fleet to defend it (and effect running repairs and tow it when necessary)

My point was the UK is trying to do this on a budget and it just won't work, the money would be better spent elsewhere rather than being wasted like this.

Until the UK realise the goal posts have changed, that they are no longer an international power as such, the next threat will almost certainly be cyber rather than lead i think.

It took a lot back in 1915 for the generals to embrace tanks and modern weapons, this is history repeating itself, we are not able to change and continue building obselete equipment.

Providing infrastructure, proper services, education to the populace provides hope and encouragement to advance and lead a better life, rather than being depressed, radicalised and eventually dead as a suicide bomber.
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  #217  
Old 24.05.2017, 15:44
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Re: Explosion at Manchester Arena

all armies are pretty redundant now unless you want to go raiding small weak countries, we (the uk) can quite easily defend itself from the comfort of an air conditioned bunker at the press of a button
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  #218  
Old 24.05.2017, 15:47
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Re: Explosion at Manchester Arena

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all armies are pretty redundant now unless you want to go raiding small weak countries,
We've been doing quite a lot of that, especially countries that won't sell us their oil for cheap suposedly have WMDs.
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  #219  
Old 24.05.2017, 16:13
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Re: Explosion at Manchester Arena

Question for you all...

If someone gave you 500,000 CHF per year on the proviso that he can beat you up 10 times a year, would you take that deal?
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  #220  
Old 24.05.2017, 16:14
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Re: Explosion at Manchester Arena

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True but illustrating your post with a picture of Vladimir who has a grand total of one aircraft carrier gives a mixed message
Fun fact: Carriers work when you use them against countries like Afghanistan or Syria without any serious airforce in place. Newer generation smart ammunitions simply destroy them... so fighting a country like Russia with a carrier fleet is a bad idea.
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