Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Off-Topic > Off-Topic > International affairs/politics  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #261  
Old 25.05.2017, 09:09
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: CH
Posts: 9,519
Groaned at 324 Times in 265 Posts
Thanked 13,788 Times in 7,116 Posts
greenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Explosion at Manchester Arena

Quote:
View Post
I'd agree with it if it:

- offered equal chance and not the opposite
- did not stigmatize the minority group that it is trying to "help"
Yes, sometimes it ends up like that - but hey ho...something must be done. The only thing that will stigmatise a minority group in such a situation will be their unwillingness to adapt. When you don't necessarily share the same values with the majority is hard. But there is some success rate, always.

Quote:
View Post
As per theological edu - why even assume our system has any resemblance to training of an imam. As per other edu, we used to go there for knowledge and wisdom. Now people from there send their kids to study (and be safe) here. How to change it...invite all here? Wait till matters deteorate to employ Geneva convention? Whatever is happening, our answer is late.
Yes, I do realise that's a sort of arrogance, isn't it. Expecting our values to be so "seductive" and to quickly become everybody else's values. Funny, it never even crossed my mind to doubt the Western civilisation up to some level (I used to quickly disregard the colonisations, the wars for oil etc), at least till some years ago when the terrorist attacks and everything revealed a can of warms I wasn't really aware of. And yes, probably you're right, it has 0 relevance for others for so many reasons...but of course, most important being the cultural one.

As for EE? It is a younger and somehow better version of WE from some points of view. Why not attractive hehe. People are smarter, have souls. Are not so easy to be fooled, have a freedom you don't find here. Why be so modest MC. But I hope we'll do our best to stay out of this mess, I'm not very optimistic about human nature lately, neither about the myths of shared interests and mutual respect.

Last edited by greenmount; 25.05.2017 at 09:31.
Reply With Quote
  #262  
Old 25.05.2017, 10:12
Blueangel's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Küsnacht, Switzerland
Posts: 3,888
Groaned at 105 Times in 96 Posts
Thanked 10,610 Times in 4,679 Posts
Blueangel has a reputation beyond reputeBlueangel has a reputation beyond reputeBlueangel has a reputation beyond reputeBlueangel has a reputation beyond reputeBlueangel has a reputation beyond reputeBlueangel has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Explosion at Manchester Arena

Quote:
View Post
yowzers, irish folk music in boston... i thought we were talking about bombings/shootings?
There's a very, very marked difference between Irish folk music and rebel songs. I can easily sing a few folk songs, seeing as it's a large part of my heritage, and my best mate can sing the rebel songs because she's 1st generation. One is lauded. The other gets you in shit with the parish priest.

What I'm finding disturbing, and said here a few days ago, is the continuing release of information to the US media, with newspapers publishing photos of the bomb scene that haven't been released in the UK. This is information that should only be shared with US intelligence, particularly during a live and fluid investigation, and not be being leaked to the media.
Quote:
The Home Secretary has criticised the US after confidential details about the Manchester Arena attack appeared to have been leaked to the media by American intelligence officers.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7752511.html
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Blueangel for this useful post:
  #263  
Old 25.05.2017, 10:42
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kt. Zürich
Posts: 9,611
Groaned at 404 Times in 348 Posts
Thanked 17,172 Times in 9,245 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Explosion at Manchester Arena

Quote:
View Post
There's a very, very marked difference between Irish folk music and rebel songs. I can easily sing a few folk songs, seeing as it's a large part of my heritage, and my best mate can sing the rebel songs because she's 1st generation. One is lauded. The other gets you in shit with the parish priest.

What I'm finding disturbing, and said here a few days ago, is the continuing release of information to the US media, with newspapers publishing photos of the bomb scene that haven't been released in the UK. This is information that should only be shared with US intelligence, particularly during a live and fluid investigation, and not be being leaked to the media.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7752511.html
Washington has turned into a very leaky ship!
Despite the severe penalties, leaking of confidential/classified information is no longer a rare event but a regular daily occurrence.

From the information seeping out this seems to have been a very powerful bomb to do such damage when it was light enough to be carried by one person!
If the bomber was not also the bomb maker then they need to locate that person fast.
Reply With Quote
  #264  
Old 25.05.2017, 11:13
Blueangel's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Küsnacht, Switzerland
Posts: 3,888
Groaned at 105 Times in 96 Posts
Thanked 10,610 Times in 4,679 Posts
Blueangel has a reputation beyond reputeBlueangel has a reputation beyond reputeBlueangel has a reputation beyond reputeBlueangel has a reputation beyond reputeBlueangel has a reputation beyond reputeBlueangel has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Explosion at Manchester Arena

Quote:
View Post
From the information seeping out this seems to have been a very powerful bomb to do such damage when it was light enough to be carried by one person!
If the bomber was not also the bomb maker then they need to locate that person fast.
There was even a slip up from the resident 'security expert' on 'This Morning' yesterday, but they glossed over it. She said "Every three feet that they moved away from that suitcase when he placed it down..." Apparently, some survivors saw a guy put a suitcase down in the foyer in the path of where people would be exiting the arena, and thought it was suspicious, so they backed away from him. US media are detailing the brand of rucksack he was wearing. That's what I'd take for a 2 week holiday, not to collect someone from a gig, but because of the location of the Arena entrance, nobody would see it as suspicious until he entered the foyer, and even then, he could cover by going to one of the food vendors open at the end of the gigs.

It's also being reported that the bomb maker's 'signature' has been identified and that's why the arrests happened yesterday. The bomber was a mule.

Now, I haven't been through Victoria station since it was refurbished last year, but even as it was, the place was riddled with CCTV. The Arena is riddled with CCTV. The police will have every detail of him arriving at the station from every direction, and going to the Arena.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Blueangel for this useful post:
  #265  
Old 25.05.2017, 11:59
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: -
Posts: 247
Groaned at 141 Times in 99 Posts
Thanked 2,085 Times in 996 Posts
kriss kross has earned some respectkriss kross has earned some respect
Re: Explosion at Manchester Arena

Mohammed Saeed El-Saeiti, the imam at the Didsbury Mosque, remembers Abedi as an dangerous extremist, the Daily Telegraph newspaper reports.
"Salman showed me the face of hate after my speech on Isis" said the imam. "He used to show me the face of hate and I could tell this person does not like me. It's not a surprise to me"


One would hope that the imam passed on this information to the authorities?

Source
Reply With Quote
  #266  
Old 25.05.2017, 12:01
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kt. Zürich
Posts: 9,611
Groaned at 404 Times in 348 Posts
Thanked 17,172 Times in 9,245 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Explosion at Manchester Arena

Quote:
View Post
Mohammed Saeed El-Saeiti, the imam at the Didsbury Mosque, remembers Abedi as an dangerous extremist, the Daily Telegraph newspaper reports.
"Salman showed me the face of hate after my speech on Isis" said the imam. "He used to show me the face of hate and I could tell this person does not like me. It's not a surprise to me"


One would hope that the imam passed on this information to the authorities?

Source
Quote:
The BBC understands that the public previously warned authorities about Abedi's extremism.
Source

A community support worker, who did not wish to be named, said several years ago members of the public called an anti-terrorism hotline about Abedi after he publicly said "he was supporting terrorism" and "being a suicide bomber is ok".

A trustee, Fawaz Haffar, of the Manchester Islamic Centre, also known as the Didsbury Mosque, described the mosque as moderate, modern and liberal, and said he was a member of an organisation liaising with police.

Last edited by marton; 25.05.2017 at 12:13.
Reply With Quote
  #267  
Old 25.05.2017, 12:08
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: -
Posts: 247
Groaned at 141 Times in 99 Posts
Thanked 2,085 Times in 996 Posts
kriss kross has earned some respectkriss kross has earned some respect
Re: Explosion at Manchester Arena

Quote:
View Post
Source

A community support worker, who did not wish to be named, said several years ago members of the public called an anti-terrorism hotline about Abedi after he publicly said "he was supporting terrorism" and "being a suicide bomber is ok".
Yes, several years ago some members of the public reported him for being an extremist.

But I would still expect the imam to have reported him as well considering that he 'remembers him as a dangerous extremist' and after the attack he said 'It's not a surprise to me'
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank kriss kross for this useful post:
  #268  
Old 25.05.2017, 12:21
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Explosion at Manchester Arena

Enough people must have reported him for this lunatic to have be known to the authorities. I suspect the Imam, or a representative, must have done so too under their duty of care. However there's no obligation for anyone to stand up and say "I reported him" is there. Nor should there be.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank for this useful post:
  #269  
Old 25.05.2017, 12:24
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Explosion at Manchester Arena

Quote:
View Post
Yes, several years ago some members of the public reported him for being an extremist.

But I would still expect the imam to have reported him as well considering that he 'remembers him as a dangerous extremist' and after the attack he said 'It's not a surprise to me'
Hindsight is always 20-20 as they say. reporting is part of it - what the authorities do and how they continue to interact with the community is another unkown. Follow up is important.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank for this useful post:
  #270  
Old 25.05.2017, 12:31
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: -
Posts: 247
Groaned at 141 Times in 99 Posts
Thanked 2,085 Times in 996 Posts
kriss kross has earned some respectkriss kross has earned some respect
Re: Explosion at Manchester Arena

Quote:
Enough people must have reported him for this lunatic to have be known to the authorities. I suspect the Imam, or a representative, must have done so too under their duty of care. However there's no obligation for anyone to stand up and say "I reported him" is there. Nor should there be.
Well it is possible he did. But I suspect had he reported him then he would've mentioned it by now - and the media would've been all over it.

Quote:
Hindsight is always 20-20 as they say. reporting is part of it - what the authorities do and how they continue to interact with the community is another unknown. Follow up is important.
I don't think the authorities would have done anything anyway.

Regardless I would still expect the imam to report him if he thought he was a dangerous extremist capable of an attack like this.
Reply With Quote
  #271  
Old 25.05.2017, 12:40
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Explosion at Manchester Arena

Quote:
View Post
Well it is possible he did. But I suspect had he reported him then he would've mentioned it by now - and the media would've been all over it.
Why "would" the reporting have been mentioned? For some "told you so" credit? Or as a stick to beat the security services with? The very fact that the media are salivating over every detail would make me keep my own counsel I reckon.


Quote:
Regardless I would still expect the imam to report him if he thought he was a dangerous extremist capable of an attack like this.
So you keep saying. As would I. But ultimately we will never know and that is the way it has to be. Just as we will never know all that has been disclosed to the authorities about this horrendous attack. Just as it should be to be honest.
Reply With Quote
  #272  
Old 25.05.2017, 12:40
Connor MacLeod's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: here
Posts: 778
Groaned at 92 Times in 61 Posts
Thanked 2,485 Times in 821 Posts
Connor MacLeod has a reputation beyond reputeConnor MacLeod has a reputation beyond reputeConnor MacLeod has a reputation beyond reputeConnor MacLeod has a reputation beyond reputeConnor MacLeod has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Explosion at Manchester Arena

Quote:
View Post
I'd rather live in a country where I know that when my kid goes out to a concert, she won't be picked up by government goons on the basis of shaky evidence, and imprisoned until she can prove her innocence. Buy hey, each to their own.

The laws about arbitrary detention are not their to protect the human rights of terrorists. They're in place to protect the human rights of the innocent. Of whom, there are rather more.
Quote:
View Post
Except, in a country where people can be detained at will and "in dubio pro reo" doesn't apply, it may no longer be your or your daughter's decision how or where she spends the night.
I have to say in the past 40 years, including Northern Ireland, I have never known any 100% completely innocent person being locked up on suspicion of terrorism, happy to be proved wrong. (UVF/IRA/ISIS sympathisers are not innocent)
I'm pretty sure my son or daughter or your children wont be locked up either.

If the tabloids are anything to go by today, it would appear that not only was this scum known to the authorities, his whole family maybe involved and part of a global group.

Known terrorist, living next door to 'you' and the authorities can do nothing about it.

Well that is until the next time one of that 'lone wolf' wants to blow up someones kids.

Innocent till proven guilty right, no point in trying to send a dead terrorist to court is there?

Last edited by Connor MacLeod; 25.05.2017 at 14:41.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Connor MacLeod for this useful post:
  #273  
Old 25.05.2017, 12:45
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kt. Zürich
Posts: 9,611
Groaned at 404 Times in 348 Posts
Thanked 17,172 Times in 9,245 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Explosion at Manchester Arena

Quote:
Hindsight is always 20-20 as they say. reporting is part of it - what the authorities do and how they continue to interact with the community is another unkown. Follow up is important.
How the authorities deal with a report "He showed me the face of hate" I have no clue.

The authorities also have to deal with a lot of reports that have no firm facts behind them and might be based on jealousy or spite especially as in the UK one can report anonymously

As an example of the volume, the UK national Counter Terrorism Internet Referral Unit (CTIRU), instigates the removal of over 1,000 pieces of online material per week, including terrorist propaganda videos, pictures of beheadings, bomb-making instructions and speeches calling for racial or religious violence..
__________________
It is naive to assume my posts are my own work
Reply With Quote
  #274  
Old 25.05.2017, 12:51
Blueangel's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Küsnacht, Switzerland
Posts: 3,888
Groaned at 105 Times in 96 Posts
Thanked 10,610 Times in 4,679 Posts
Blueangel has a reputation beyond reputeBlueangel has a reputation beyond reputeBlueangel has a reputation beyond reputeBlueangel has a reputation beyond reputeBlueangel has a reputation beyond reputeBlueangel has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Explosion at Manchester Arena

Quote:
View Post
Well it is possible he did. But I suspect had he reported him then he would've mentioned it by now - and the media would've been all over it.
The mosque reported him to Prevent, which is the anti-radicalisation programme in the UK. His own mother reported him to an anti-terror hotline. He was on the terror watchlist in the UK and US.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017...op-manchester/
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Blueangel for this useful post:
  #275  
Old 25.05.2017, 13:14
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Zurich
Posts: 982
Groaned at 249 Times in 178 Posts
Thanked 2,158 Times in 997 Posts
J2488 has a reputation beyond reputeJ2488 has a reputation beyond reputeJ2488 has a reputation beyond reputeJ2488 has a reputation beyond reputeJ2488 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Explosion at Manchester Arena

Quote:
View Post
Well it is possible he did. But I suspect had he reported him then he would've mentioned it by now - and the media would've been all over it.



I don't think the authorities would have done anything anyway.

Regardless I would still expect the imam to report him if he thought he was a dangerous extremist capable of an attack like this.
Its adorable that you think the media would go to great lengths to report that.

The authorities did do something - they evaluated the threat and deemed it not worthy enough of follow up. The authorities got it very, very wrong.
Reply With Quote
  #276  
Old 25.05.2017, 13:15
Medea Fleecestealer's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 21,477
Groaned at 371 Times in 286 Posts
Thanked 16,285 Times in 9,244 Posts
Medea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Explosion at Manchester Arena

Quote:
View Post
There's a very, very marked difference between Irish folk music and rebel songs. I can easily sing a few folk songs, seeing as it's a large part of my heritage, and my best mate can sing the rebel songs because she's 1st generation. One is lauded. The other gets you in shit with the parish priest.

What I'm finding disturbing, and said here a few days ago, is the continuing release of information to the US media, with newspapers publishing photos of the bomb scene that haven't been released in the UK. This is information that should only be shared with US intelligence, particularly during a live and fluid investigation, and not be being leaked to the media.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7752511.html
Manchester police to stop sharing info after a second leak - and Mrs May will raise the issue with Trump later today at the NATO meeting.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-40040210

Meanwhile a bomb disposal unit has been sent to a school in Hulme.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-40043864
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Medea Fleecestealer for this useful post:
  #277  
Old 25.05.2017, 13:33
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: -
Posts: 247
Groaned at 141 Times in 99 Posts
Thanked 2,085 Times in 996 Posts
kriss kross has earned some respectkriss kross has earned some respect
Re: Explosion at Manchester Arena

Quote:
View Post
The mosque reported him to Prevent, which is the anti-radicalisation programme in the UK. His own mother reported him to an anti-terror hotline. He was on the terror watchlist in the UK and US.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017...op-manchester/
The imam mentioned that Abedi 'showed him the face of hate' after he gave an anti-extremist sermon.

Now mosque member Akram Ramadam claims that Abedi confronted the imam during the anti-extremist sermon and was subsequently banned. He also then claims that the mosque reported him to the authorities.

Strange that the imam didn't mention any of that if it is true?
Reply With Quote
  #278  
Old 25.05.2017, 13:35
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kt. Zürich
Posts: 9,611
Groaned at 404 Times in 348 Posts
Thanked 17,172 Times in 9,245 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Explosion at Manchester Arena

Quote:
View Post
The imam mentioned that Abedi 'showed him the face of hate' after he gave an anti-extremist sermon.

Now a mosque member claims that Abedi confronted the imam during the anti-extremist sermon and was subsequently banned. He also then claims that the mosque reported him to the authorities.

Strange that the imam didn't mention any of that if it is true?
How do you claim to know that the imam didn't mention any of that?

Have you access to the reporters notes?
Reply With Quote
  #279  
Old 25.05.2017, 13:40
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: -
Posts: 247
Groaned at 141 Times in 99 Posts
Thanked 2,085 Times in 996 Posts
kriss kross has earned some respectkriss kross has earned some respect
Re: Explosion at Manchester Arena

Quote:
View Post
The imam mentioned that Abedi 'showed him the face of hate' after he gave an anti-extremist sermon.

Now mosque member Akram Ramadam claims that Abedi confronted the imam during the anti-extremist sermon and was subsequently banned. He also then claims that the mosque reported him to the authorities.
Yet here is an interview with Akram Ramadam where he states that Abadi simply gave the imam a ''killer look'' and didn't say anthing

Strange!
Reply With Quote
  #280  
Old 25.05.2017, 13:48
Blueangel's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Küsnacht, Switzerland
Posts: 3,888
Groaned at 105 Times in 96 Posts
Thanked 10,610 Times in 4,679 Posts
Blueangel has a reputation beyond reputeBlueangel has a reputation beyond reputeBlueangel has a reputation beyond reputeBlueangel has a reputation beyond reputeBlueangel has a reputation beyond reputeBlueangel has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Explosion at Manchester Arena

Quote:
View Post
Now mosque member Akram Ramadam claims that Abedi confronted the imam during the anti-extremist sermon and was subsequently banned. He also then claims that the mosque reported him to the authorities.

Strange that the imam didn't mention any of that if it is true?
I believe it was mentioned in the press call given by the mosque, yesterday or the day before. You should be able to view it on one of these sites.

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/

http://www.itv.com/news/granada/
Reply With Quote
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
One Dead After Explosion At German Restaurant Blueangel International affairs/politics 160 29.07.2016 12:09
Explosion at Novartis Village Idiot Swiss politics/news 4 03.04.2014 23:56
Explosion at Marcoule Nuclear reactor in South France, fear of leakage Mowvich International affairs/politics 22 21.09.2011 09:04
Faithless at Arena Geneva, 18.03.2011 Starbug Concerts 7 21.03.2011 18:25
Basel: Used Bicycle sale at St. Marg Arena? Biblioteca Transportation/driving 1 04.09.2008 12:40


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 22:12.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0