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  #161  
Old 23.05.2017, 23:22
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Re: Explosion at Manchester Arena

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You are of course totally correct, children can never be considered innocent go troll another thread
guilty of being non muslim. problem solved. go troll another thread yourself.
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  #162  
Old 23.05.2017, 23:28
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Re: Explosion at Manchester Arena

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If only there was some linkage between all these terror attacks...a clue...some overlap in the perpetrators of the terrorism...similarities...a belief system...something...oh well, the civilized world has to keep its antenna up and perhaps some data, some tendencies, some observable thru line will present itself but until then, what could it be?

...in unrelated news, it seems the bomber came from a nice Muslim family and his mom taught the Koran...
He was born in Manchester, so much for the masterminds who proposed banning immigrants from Muslim countries
Anyway Islam is a religion not a location, anybody can join no matter where they live.
BTW one of Trump's budget proposals published today is to cut funding to a program that helps immigrants integrate

I expect he did not see many Reaper drones in Manchester either.
His family come from Libya where the Reaper drones are authorised by the local Govt.
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  #163  
Old 23.05.2017, 23:35
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Re: Explosion at Manchester Arena

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He was born in Manchester, so much for the masterminds who proposed banning immigrants from Muslim countries

His family come from Libya
oh, you
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  #164  
Old 23.05.2017, 23:49
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Re: Explosion at Manchester Arena

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Er...no, it's not "trendy" to party like it's 632 AD...beards, bad haircuts and religious violence have been happening in Muslim lands for thousands of years. It needs to progress, like most other cultures and religions have...
It clearly is, otherwise explain to me how hundreds of young Europeans became radicals and decided to get up and go and fight for a caliphate in Syria...


I am for civil liberties and that includes freedom of religion, freedom of speech and many more. However, I think these rights need to be defended at times. Often from inside pressure where governments try to take them away from us. Less often from outside sources where other countries try to push an agenda that clashes with the basics that make our political systems. This is one of those cases... We need to do a couple of simple things:
- don't allow Middle Eastern countries, or in plain speech the Saudis, to finance and build mosques with radical agendas. (Same is true for Turkish mosques which actively undermine integration in CH as well as DE)
- don't allow "imported" Imams to preach hate, but set some basic standards that any imam needs to fulfill. I don't know Manchester, but in Germany do you have hundreds of them who live in the country for a decade and still don't speak the basics of German or know a thing about the German society. Just as any other teacher needs to pass some exams for quality control do I think the same should apply for Imams.


I could go on for another 20 points which would all be legal, all made sense and all cost time and effort which nobody ever wanted to invest on those bloody immigrants. Let's be honest: The reason we have radical mosques not just in the UK, but even in CH is that nobody ever cared...


But to be brutally honest: Did anyone watch what the orange gibbon said last night in Saudi Arabia? If that level of sucking up is going to be the standard will we never get there. Clearly is selling some billions in guns more important than those terrorists he kept on talking about during his campaign...
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  #165  
Old 24.05.2017, 00:10
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Re: Explosion at Manchester Arena

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But to be brutally honest: Did anyone watch what the orange gibbon said last night in Saudi Arabia? If that level of sucking up is going to be the standard will we never get there. Clearly is selling some billions in guns more important than those terrorists he kept on talking about during his campaign...
But it's all and only about the business of selling weapons and feeding the "defense"-sector.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Is_a_Racket

(the German wikipedia entry is longer and better, as often).


There is nothing else to it, simply.
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  #166  
Old 24.05.2017, 00:13
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Re: Explosion at Manchester Arena

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It clearly is, otherwise explain to me how hundreds of young Europeans became radicals and decided to get up and go and fight for a caliphate in Syria...


I am for civil liberties and that includes freedom of religion, freedom of speech and many more. However, I think these rights need to be defended at times. Often from inside pressure where governments try to take them away from us. Less often from outside sources where other countries try to push an agenda that clashes with the basics that make our political systems. This is one of those cases... We need to do a couple of simple things:
- don't allow Middle Eastern countries, or in plain speech the Saudis, to finance and build mosques with radical agendas. (Same is true for Turkish mosques which actively undermine integration in CH as well as DE)
- don't allow "imported" Imams to preach hate, but set some basic standards that any imam needs to fulfill. I don't know Manchester, but in Germany do you have hundreds of them who live in the country for a decade and still don't speak the basics of German or know a thing about the German society. Just as any other teacher needs to pass some exams for quality control do I think the same should apply for Imams.


I could go on for another 20 points which would all be legal, all made sense and all cost time and effort which nobody ever wanted to invest on those bloody immigrants. Let's be honest: The reason we have radical mosques not just in the UK, but even in CH is that nobody ever cared...


But to be brutally honest: Did anyone watch what the orange gibbon said last night in Saudi Arabia? If that level of sucking up is going to be the standard will we never get there. Clearly is selling some billions in guns more important than those terrorists he kept on talking about during his campaign...
Would it be practical to have a law that says all Church and Mosque services in a country must be in a local language?

In the Muslim countries, these positions are usually governed by endowments or religious ministry and the Imam needs to have a degree from an Islamic school.
In the West it seems to be more informal and anybody can be an Imam so long as their local mosque approves them which unfortunately can open the door to all sorts of extreme characters.
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  #167  
Old 24.05.2017, 00:13
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Re: Explosion at Manchester Arena

The UK terrorist threat level has been raised to the highest level: they are anticipating another attack. http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-40023488

My Dutch friend tells me they had a lot of problems with Indonesian immigrants in Holland. Not with the first wave, they could see that the European life was far more enjoyable, safer, and it was possible to progress up the food chain.

The problems were always with the second generation, the ones born in Europe. They had never been badly treated, never had to keep quiet while the police were pulling their property apart, always had more than one dictator to choose from at election times.

I have been watching the reults in the UK, & the same thing is happening there: the first arrivals settle down and are grateful for safety and a half decent job, but the second generation were given everything, and have grown up expecting jobs wihout actually studying for them. Consequently they are poorly skilled, poorly paid, and are jealous of their school friends who have studied and can afford a car and an apartment. Easy pickings when someone asks them what do they want in life.
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  #168  
Old 24.05.2017, 00:26
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Re: Explosion at Manchester Arena

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- don't allow "imported" Imams to preach hate, but set some basic standards that any imam needs to fulfill. I don't know Manchester, but in Germany do you have hundreds of them who live in the country for a decade and still don't speak the basics of German or know a thing about the German society. Just as any other teacher needs to pass some exams for quality control do I think the same should apply for Imams.
..
Shouldn't they graduate a theological institute as the priests have to? (something on par with this, of course)
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  #169  
Old 24.05.2017, 00:34
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Re: Explosion at Manchester Arena

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Shouldn't they graduate a theological institute as the priests have to? (something on par with this, of course)
Who will actually oversee that this "theological institute" is not schoolling them in radicalism? Pope?

It is not a bad idea but it fails when you realize how many minds interpret spiritual loyalty as fundamentism. What fundamentalism is for us, is pure faith for others. Institute might feed this.
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  #170  
Old 24.05.2017, 00:54
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Re: Explosion at Manchester Arena

Defiance personified, a beautiful ode to Manchester from poet Tony Walsh.

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  #171  
Old 24.05.2017, 01:00
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Re: Explosion at Manchester Arena

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Who will actually oversee that this "theological institute" is not schoolling them in radicalism? Pope?

It is not a bad idea but it fails when you realize how many minds interpret spiritual loyalty as fundamentism. What fundamentalism is for us, is pure faith for others. Institute might feed this.
Philosophy, history, (classical) languages, interdisciplinary studies and whatever else they also study in a theological institute should have better chances of curing fundamentalism. Or at least I like to believe so..
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  #172  
Old 24.05.2017, 01:24
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Re: Explosion at Manchester Arena

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It honestly pains me to read how this thread has degenerated to insults and vulgarity towards each other, it's a sad demonstration of how we have all been affected by what has happened back home. The many different approaches offered up by EF members of how to face the situation, reactions and solutions seem to cover the whole field, I for one would not know where to start.
It's the time to take a step back luv. Chucking your laptop at the wall can become an expensive response. Our nephew's having his last round of chemo tomorrow, but still went to the vigil in Albert Square with his mates...then I come here and read the thoughts of a couple of people who I wouldn't tire of slapping. Takes all sorts...

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Will we return to the days of the IRA attacks where everyone was physically searched whenever entering department stores, shops, cinemas and concerts?
And that's looking increasingly plausible with the threat rating being escalated.

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It would have made no difference in this instance, as the attacker was outside the venue & he chose his position to do the damage when the explosion happened.
Exactly.
When I worked in Manchester, me and my mates used to call into the Maccy D's (since closed) in the Arena's foyer for breakfast on Fridays. The entrance to the Arena is on the bridge which links several of the train platforms to the main concourse, so it's an integral part of the train station. Security would have to stretch to the station as a whole, which is possible, and I've been through the station when such security was in place, but it was a nightmare.

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Old 24.05.2017, 01:32
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Re: Explosion at Manchester Arena

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Just in time for the 25th anniversary of the Falcone bombing.

Tom
Remember that one very well.

Also just in time for the 21st anniversary of the last Manchester bombing on 15 June 1996 by the IRA. And no! The 'I' doesn't stand for 'Islam'.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996_Manchester_bombing
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  #174  
Old 24.05.2017, 01:42
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Re: Explosion at Manchester Arena

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It's the time to take a step back luv. Chucking your laptop at the wall can become an expensive response. Our nephew's having his last round of chemo tomorrow, but still went to the vigil in St Peter's Square with his mates...then I come here and read the thoughts of a couple of people who I wouldn't tire of slapping. Takes all sorts...
.
But don't you think that some criticism is rather justified in these circumstances?
Wouldn't you be scared if you lived in UK now? Or anywhere else, really.

Disclaimer: I didn't read all the posts and have no idea how offensive they got.
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  #175  
Old 24.05.2017, 01:42
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Re: Explosion at Manchester Arena

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Who will actually oversee that this "theological institute" is not schoolling them in radicalism? Pope?

It is not a bad idea but it fails when you realize how many minds interpret spiritual loyalty as fundamentism. What fundamentalism is for us, is pure faith for others. Institute might feed this.
You may have noticed that (against quite a lot of local resistance) the University of Fribourg is running courses on Islam for social workers, police, imams, etc.

I'm sure the UK has stuff like that but if it's infected with "no Islamophobia/let's surrender to fundamentalists" then it's completely pointless. What's needed is a proper language of resistance to the lies and the ideology that is used against our countries.

Remember, unlike the IRA, these people want a complete change to our society. That kids get influenced into it is a complete failure of our culture.
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  #176  
Old 24.05.2017, 01:57
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Re: Explosion at Manchester Arena

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You may have noticed that (against quite a lot of local resistance) the University of Fribourg is running courses on Islam for social workers, police, imams, etc.

.
That is not the same thing as a 4-6 years faculty where they are supposed to study many other things apart from religious dogma.
Of course, if there's no (reliable) authority to supervise the curriculum then the whole thing is pointless. But I don't see how progress can be made in the absence of serious education.
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Old 24.05.2017, 02:04
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Re: Explosion at Manchester Arena

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I have been watching the reults in the UK, & the same thing is happening there: the first arrivals settle down and are grateful for safety and a half decent job, but the second generation were given everything, and have grown up expecting jobs wihout actually studying for them....
Interesting theory, but seeing as considerably more than half of my family are 2nd generation, and more than 1/4 of my friends are also 2nd generation (just did a count down my fb friends list plus others), and every single one of their parents emigrated to escape some kind of political oppression yet took their faith with them, I'd have to say there are huge holes in this theory.
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  #178  
Old 24.05.2017, 03:29
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Re: Explosion at Manchester Arena

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But don't you think that some criticism is rather justified in these circumstances?
Criticism of who and what though? We have an enemy. You, me, Manchester, etc... We have a common enemy. Last night, all the long prepared and practised action plans to deal with such an incident fell into place. The people of Manchester showed charity, compassion and solidarity.

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Wouldn't you be scared if you lived in UK now? Or anywhere else, really.
Wouldn't be too happy living in North Korea, but the UK? Manchester? I lived my first 49yrs 18 miles from the scene of last night's atrocity. Spent 9 years working in the city centre, most of them passing through Victoria station twice a day. We've been to dozens of gigs at the Arena, from Pavarotti to Radiohead. I was in a bombing as a child in the 1970's. The details and sensations of that are crystal clear in my mind. Hearing the kids today saying how they saw a flash of white, felt a sudden gush of warm air, felt something hot fly over them, etc...that's upsetting because they'll remember that for the rest of their lives, and they're the 'lucky ones'.

So...scared? Not in this lifetime.
Angry? Hell yeah! The blue tooth headphones went straight across the room when the news broke (Cheaper than laptops ), the tears were of pure rage, and my neighbours will have heard a lot of words beginning with F, C and T.
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  #179  
Old 24.05.2017, 08:24
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Re: Explosion at Manchester Arena

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You may have noticed that (against quite a lot of local resistance) the University of Fribourg is running courses on Islam for social workers, police, imams, etc.

I'm sure the UK has stuff like that but if it's infected with "no Islamophobia/let's surrender to fundamentalists" then it's completely pointless. What's needed is a proper language of resistance to the lies and the ideology that is used against our countries.

Remember, unlike the IRA, these people want a complete change to our society. That kids get influenced into it is a complete failure of our culture.
I'd agree if I thought we had so much power and our culture mattered so much to radicalized kids.

Understanding might disarm some, and it would help where anger is caused by not being understood and not being accepted. We could infiltrate somebody's reasoning while they are infiltrating our safety procedures. Maybe. If we thought about it 10-15 years ago. But...time and volume are our enemies. Our cultures being manipulated by ourselves, into seeing some measures as mean. When they are just trying to be finally quickly responsive to the volume of our future problems.

If faith is used to justify liquidation of opponents, the only efficient way to fix it is by people of that faith, to not be associated. Is there a reformation movement going on? Is it successful?

GM - I wish edu was a magic quick fix. Why? Because it is fast and low investment/high return. But edu only helps where it is a priiority and where access is on an equal, earned basis. Quotas and positive discrimination destabilize this.
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Old 24.05.2017, 08:37
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Re: Explosion at Manchester Arena

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So...scared? Not in this lifetime.
Angry? Hell yeah! The blue tooth headphones went straight across the room when the news broke (Cheaper than laptops ), the tears were of pure rage, and my neighbours will have heard a lot of words beginning with F, C and T.
I am not angry, I am scared. And scared mostly because people refuse to see there is a big, big problem here for which the next generations will pay even harder than most of us.
The Western civilisation is enthusiatically killing itself (and not only, this cyclical destructiveness is everywhere in one form or another...). I would be tempted to say - let them, not my problem, but wait...I am part of that too (probably more than many other people who only feel they are unconditionally entitled to this title). I travel, my family travels, most people today travel, we are not living in a bubble. A life means nothing to other people, it means everything in the world to their families. Those people will never be able to recover. This is the sad truth.
The whole frenzy "We will not let anyone change our lifestyle" is scary. As if it will ever help with anything, the slogans. They are just slogans anyway - everything is changing. Some people are crushed and we are trying to make light of irreversible things such is the loss of a life. I'm out of this subject, it's pointless.

Last edited by greenmount; 24.05.2017 at 09:35.
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