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  #21  
Old 04.06.2017, 11:59
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Re: 'Van hits pedestrians' on London Bridge in 'major incident'

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Maybe one should stop exporting weapons and draining their financial system to start with, that would be more efficient? But till we do that, let's blame "them" instead of "us" instead, always easier
What will the excuse be if it turns out that these 3 murderers were 'homegrown' like the Manchester bomber?
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Old 04.06.2017, 12:01
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Re: 'Van hits pedestrians' on London Bridge in 'major incident'

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refugee 41 year old stabs 5 year old Russian boy to death in Bavaria, other 6 year old child in hospital (link in German only)
From that article:
Der 41jährige Angreifer wurde durch zu Hilfe eilende Polizeibeamte bei einem Schusswaffeneinsatz getötet.

The 41-year-old attacker was killed when a gun was used by a police officer who was rushing to help.
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Old 04.06.2017, 12:08
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Re: 'Van hits pedestrians' on London Bridge in 'major incident'

I know this is so controversial, and i dont really have an absolute opinion on the matter.
If one of the customers at the bar had a gun, could these killers have been stopped? Its a tough call to make, mainly because they had false sucide bomb vests on. But people could throw chairs and bottles at them, so a head shot theoretically be possible

I had a gun in my 20s, living alone in a city, which is known for its crime, and a person gets raped every 13minutes.......it made sense. I had to think though, last Friday night was a girls night out, what if that occurred here, could someone with a gun have stopped the carnage?
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Old 04.06.2017, 12:18
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Re: 'Van hits pedestrians' on London Bridge in 'major incident'

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What will the excuse be if it turns out that these 3 murderers were 'homegrown' like the Manchester bomber?
It's a good point, but i think the root cause is the same. He clearly had a weak mind and easy to convince doing something stupid. One should ask the question - Why would someone lead another person to commit something like this?

This is where my thoughts kick in - if the "mastermind" behind this had a good life in his home country, he would probably not lead other people to do stupid things.

And how we ensure the mastermind is having a good life is probably by letting him having financial security, no wars etc. in his own home region. The reason this is not happening, is very much because of "us" if you ask me.

Just as example, consider when IRA were bombing in UK, it was hardly so that all were judged or that people said that Christianity is to be blamed, but what did help was some serious humanitarian effort in educating, pumping in money in the system and ensuring their life is worth more living then dead. The same with ETA in Spain.

Cheers,
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Old 04.06.2017, 12:21
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Re: 'Van hits pedestrians' on London Bridge in 'major incident'

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I know this is so controversial, and i dont really have an absolute opinion on the matter.
If one of the customers at the bar had a gun, could these killers have been stopped? Its a tough call to make, mainly because they had false sucide bomb vests on. But people could throw chairs and bottles at them, so a head shot theoretically be possible

I had a gun in my 20s, living alone in a city, which is known for its crime, and a person gets raped every 13minutes.......it made sense. I had to think though, last Friday night was a girls night out, what if that occurred here, could someone with a gun have stopped the carnage?
Someones with a gun did - trained police.

Experience has repeatedly shown that the presence of others with guns results in more bystanders being killed.
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  #26  
Old 04.06.2017, 12:29
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Re: 'Van hits pedestrians' on London Bridge in 'major incident'

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Just as example, consider when IRA were bombing in UK, it was hardly so that all were judged or that people said that Christianity is to be blamed, but what did help was some serious humanitarian effort in educating, pumping in money in the system and ensuring their life is worth more living then dead. The same with ETA in Spain.
Because IRA and ETA, though they may have been terrorist organizations, made up with people who belong to religions, were not religious terrorists. Neither were claiming Christian jihad as a motivation, nor was religion the mobilizing factor behind their origins.

Quite a different cup of tea.
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Old 04.06.2017, 12:31
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Re: 'Van hits pedestrians' on London Bridge in 'major incident'

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I know this is so controversial, and i dont really have an absolute opinion on the matter.
If one of the customers at the bar had a gun, could these killers have been stopped?
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Experience has repeatedly shown that the presence of others with guns results in more bystanders being killed.
How about a conspicuous fire extinguisher (powder type) in every corner of rooms that may gather crowds? Dust them bastards. That will incapacitate them within seconds. Innocent bystanders affected by the blast won't suffer any serious damage.
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Old 04.06.2017, 12:31
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Re: 'Van hits pedestrians' on London Bridge in 'major incident'

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Better intelligence clearly needed.. not to mention increasing resources the police desperately need to strengthen investigations and gather/monitor new and ever-changing threats.
My question... Why weren't the temporary anti-terror barriers put into place along all London bridges within 48hrs of the Westminster attack, as was proposed at the time? They were put up around Buckingham Palace

http://metro.co.uk/2017/03/28/barrie...alace-6539707/
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Old 04.06.2017, 12:33
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Re: 'Van hits pedestrians' on London Bridge in 'major incident'

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I know this is so controversial, and i dont really have an absolute opinion on the matter.
If one of the customers at the bar had a gun, could these killers have been stopped? Its a tough call to make, mainly because they had false sucide bomb vests on. But people could throw chairs and bottles at them, so a head shot theoretically be possible

I had a gun in my 20s, living alone in a city, which is known for its crime, and a person gets raped every 13minutes.......it made sense. I had to think though, last Friday night was a girls night out, what if that occurred here, could someone with a gun have stopped the carnage?
If civilians carry guns, then the perpetrators do also! Guns are quite hard to get in the UK so these evil pricks find other methods. I dread to think how much worse things would be with guns in the UK.

This was awful news to wake up to this morning.
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  #30  
Old 04.06.2017, 12:34
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Re: 'Van hits pedestrians' on London Bridge in 'major incident'

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I know this is so controversial, and i dont really have an absolute opinion on the matter.
If one of the customers at the bar had a gun, could these killers have been stopped? Its a tough call to make, mainly because they had false sucide bomb vests on. But people could throw chairs and bottles at them, so a head shot theoretically be possible

I had a gun in my 20s, living alone in a city, which is known for its crime, and a person gets raped every 13minutes.......it made sense. I had to think though, last Friday night was a girls night out, what if that occurred here, could someone with a gun have stopped the carnage?
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Someones with a gun did - trained police.

Experience has repeatedly shown that the presence of others with guns results in more bystanders being killed.
That was one of my first thoughts... until it dawned on me that if guns were so easy to purchase in the United Kingdom, the attackers probably wouldn't have bothered with a van, knives and coffee tins in the first place.

I honestly don't see any solution to this. We are talking about a tiny number of people who are legally entitled to meet where they like and talk about what they like before going and murdering strangers. Sure, we can vet the imams and encourage people to grass up their brothers and sons, but there will always be someone who slips through the net because people cannot be monitored 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. And any solution to that problem will involve massive human rights abuses which would be simply intolerable to most British people (unless, of course, they're softened up enough first... but that's a whole nother rabbit hole).

And if the problem is Islam itself, as suggested by several people on EF and the internets in general, then what? There are nearly two billion of the buggers, and they're not going anywhere fast. Katie Hopkins might be in favour of a "final solution", but how would she carry it out? Any talk of "Islam being the problem" is as much pointless bullshit as tealights and vigils.

Do any of the brighter minds of EF have anything more constructive to say than "something should be done"? Because whatever that "something" should be utterly beats me.
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  #31  
Old 04.06.2017, 12:38
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Re: 'Van hits pedestrians' on London Bridge in 'major incident'

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It's a good point, but i think the root cause is the same. He clearly had a weak mind and easy to convince doing something stupid. One should ask the question - Why would someone lead another person to commit something like this?

This is where my thoughts kick in - if the "mastermind" behind this had a good life in his home country, he would probably not lead other people to do stupid things.

And how we ensure the mastermind is having a good life is probably by letting him having financial security, no wars etc. in his own home region. The reason this is not happening, is very much because of "us" if you ask me.

Just as example, consider when IRA were bombing in UK, it was hardly so that all were judged or that people said that Christianity is to be blamed, but what did help was some serious humanitarian effort in educating, pumping in money in the system and ensuring their life is worth more living then dead. The same with ETA in Spain.

Cheers,
"if the "mastermind" behind this had a good life in his home country" I am sure he does have a good life. Look at Bin Laden in Pakistan; large house with walled garden for family and the place full of servants and bodyguards.

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Because IRA and ETA, though they may have been terrorist organizations, made up with people who belong to religions, were not religious terrorists. Neither were claiming Christian jihad as a motivation, nor was religion the mobilizing factor behind their origins.

Quite a different cup of tea.
Different cup of tea? Dead is dead regardless of the motivation behind the attack?
Or do you think the injured sat in hospital thinking "I am glad it was not claimed religion was behind my attackers"
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  #32  
Old 04.06.2017, 12:40
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Re: 'Van hits pedestrians' on London Bridge in 'major incident'

I thought the most telling news last night was the downgrade of the Vauxhall incident from "a potential terror incident" to "oh, just another stabbing, nothing to see here".

In some ways that was more disturbing than the events on the bridge and at Borough market.
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  #33  
Old 04.06.2017, 12:52
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Re: 'Van hits pedestrians' on London Bridge in 'major incident'

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Different cup of tea? Dead is dead regardless of the motivation behind the attack?
Or do you think the injured sat in hospital thinking "I am glad it was not claimed religion was behind my attackers"
I hope you're not implying that I'm condoning terrorist activity or murder or violence in any form.

Understanding the motivation behind an attack can help in preventing similar attacks in the future, no? IRA negotiated a cease fire long ago. ETA officially disbanded a few months ago. Is it realistic to think that ISIS religious nutters will disband anytime before they achieve their goal - an apocalyptic battle to destroy the West and create a global caliphate?

Last edited by MusicChick; 04.06.2017 at 13:17. Reason: fixed quote
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Old 04.06.2017, 13:10
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Re: 'Van hits pedestrians' on London Bridge in 'major incident'

One thing is for sure: With Europe's current laissez-faire attitude and policies towards the problem, it will only get worse, much worse.
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Old 04.06.2017, 13:12
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Re: 'Van hits pedestrians' on London Bridge in 'major incident'

@ DB

I agree with you that there is no obvious solution to stop these attacks and currently no prospect of anybody coming up with a good solution.
Suppose as a fantasy solution we all became Muslims? It would not work simply because these extremists already kill many more from their own religion than from Western Europe.

Actually I am quite pessimistic about the future; as the world population grows so the number of extremist nutters will increase.
I believe Islamic extremism will slowly fade away like other fashions and crazes have but will be replaced by some other extreme ideas which people will use to falsely justify murdering their fellows.

Sadly we will all have to learn to live with terror well into the future.
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Old 04.06.2017, 13:16
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One thing is for sure: With Europe's current laissez-faire attitude and policies towards the problem, it will only get worse, much worse.
What do you suggest?

Le Pen?

Trump?

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blah blah, racist bigotry


It is interesting for me to read a lot of criticism of certain unpopular (or unpc) theories on how to solve the situation. Yet - no alternative efficient and implementable plans. Nada. I think people haven't fully realized that while these unpopular theories are in fact disliked by most since they are harsh...they actually want to act now. We are in a game of time and destabilization. If we have to wait for anything super smart and efficient that everybody will agree to, it will be too late. I think. I am not a right winger at all...yet acknowledge we are quite late as it is. I do not think that the measures viewed by the left as discriminatory are in fact more destabilizing than the time that the left is generously offering to those preparing other attacks. Yet we gotta get used to the world with discriminatory measures that we might not like but which are protecting our life in order to keep our fancy ideas on our ethics. When we stop being hypocrites, maybe there is a chance.
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Old 04.06.2017, 13:36
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Re: 'Van hits pedestrians' on London Bridge in 'major incident'

Death toll up to 7.
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  #38  
Old 04.06.2017, 13:43
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Re: 'Van hits pedestrians' on London Bridge in 'major incident'

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What do you suggest?
It's not really my job to make suggestions here.

We have plenty well-paid politicitians and "experts" to come up with feasible, effective and targeted solutions.

A closer look at Israeli policies and practices might give some valuable input.
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Old 04.06.2017, 13:44
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Re: 'Van hits pedestrians' on London Bridge in 'major incident'

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What do you suggest?

Le Pen?

Trump?





It is interesting for me to read a lot of criticism of certain unpopular (or unpc) theories on how to solve the situation. Yet - no alternative efficient and implementable plans. Nada. I think people haven't fully realized that while these unpopular theories are in fact disliked by most since they are harsh...they actually want to act now. We are in a game of time and destabilization. If we have to wait for anything super smart and efficient that everybody will agree to, it will be too late. I think. I am not a right winger at all...yet acknowledge we are quite late as it is. I do not think that the measures viewed by the left as discriminatory are in fact more destabilizing than the time that the left is generously offering to those preparing other attacks. Yet we gotta get used to the world with discriminatory measures that we might not like but which are protecting our life in order to keep our fancy ideas on our ethics. When we stop being hypocrites, maybe there is a chance.
What a central European calls "fancy ethics", English speakers call "hard won fundamental rights".

Just so we're clear.
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Old 04.06.2017, 13:45
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Re: 'Van hits pedestrians' on London Bridge in 'major incident'

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I know this is so controversial, and i dont really have an absolute opinion on the matter.
If one of the customers at the bar had a gun, could these killers have been stopped? Its a tough call to make, mainly because they had false sucide bomb vests on. But people could throw chairs and bottles at them, so a head shot theoretically be possible

I had a gun in my 20s, living alone in a city, which is known for its crime, and a person gets raped every 13minutes.......it made sense. I had to think though, last Friday night was a girls night out, what if that occurred here, could someone with a gun have stopped the carnage?
That question has actually been answered, "most" instances in the US where gun crime is endemic the "use `em or lose `em" gun right advocates are actually the first to scatter, those who actually use a gun to stop "the bad guy" usually end up with "collaterals" (note the use of air quotes) and only in a handful of incidents has a armed citizen been able to stop more carnage.
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