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  #101  
Old 04.06.2017, 19:02
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Re: 'Van hits pedestrians' on London Bridge in 'major incident'

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doesn't that depend whether the Christian claimed to be killing in the name of Christianity? The church would then certainly insist the perpetrators were not Christian! It's a null argument.

These acts are carried out for one sole purpose, and that is to create a division between western liberal thinking and the Islamic world. The people carrying out or instructing these acts, do not see Islam as compatible with western values and they want people to think exactly as some of the commentators on this forum think and feel, with those people they have already won!
Islam isn't compatible with liberal values. There's nothing controversial about that.

Grumpy old conservatives like me, on the other hand, get on perfectly well with Muslims as we actually have quite a lot in common.
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  #102  
Old 04.06.2017, 19:19
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Re: 'Van hits pedestrians' on London Bridge in 'major incident'

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The notion of a Christian state is very well established, but isn't actually what Christianity is supposed to be about.
now you are right here for sure.

Who are you to say to the vast majority of Muslims in the UK and around the world, what Islam is supposed to be about? Because murdering innocent civilians just is NOT what must Muslims consider what it is supposed to be about.

Is Christianity supposed to be about seeling vast amounts of arms to Saudis? Really.

Out of here- not a day for scoring points
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  #103  
Old 04.06.2017, 19:36
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Re: 'Van hits pedestrians' on London Bridge in 'major incident'

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now you are right here for sure.

Who are you to say to the vast majority of Muslims in the UK and around the world, what Islam is supposed to be about? Because murdering innocent civilians just is NOT what must Muslims consider what it is supposed to be about.

Is Christianity supposed to be about seeling vast amounts of arms to Saudis? Really.

Out of here- not a day for scoring points
Are you drunk?
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  #104  
Old 04.06.2017, 20:16
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Re: 'Van hits pedestrians' on London Bridge in 'major incident'

http://www.forum-islam.ch/de/ueber-u...ionspapier.php
is an Islam organisation in Switzerland, which is about more liberal values.
Contains info and links about Reform.
Website in German only, unfortunately.
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  #105  
Old 04.06.2017, 20:53
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Re: 'Van hits pedestrians' on London Bridge in 'major incident'

quickly popping in here to throw in a link with a convenient overview of stats.

https://www.reddit.com/r/The_Donald/...nt_you_to_see/

carry on (with daily life and all that jazz)
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  #106  
Old 04.06.2017, 21:00
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Re: 'Van hits pedestrians' on London Bridge in 'major incident'

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There's a fundamental difference between Islam and Christianity that is relevant here: Christianity is, at heart, a personal religion. The only Christian state which is supposed to exist is that which will be established by Christ upon His return. Before that time, we're supposed to pay our taxes, try to be useful, but otherwise give our allegiance to Christ and Christ alone.

The notion of a Christian state is very well established, but isn't actually what Christianity is supposed to be about. Nor is Holy War, lopping off heathens' heads or any of the other stuff that comes with honouring Christ by completely ignoring his instructions.

Islam, on the other hand, is both personal and political. Muhammad himself established a Muslim state with laws and all the paraphernalia of government. Sure, there's only supposed to be one Muslim state (which is supposed to encompass the entire planet one day), but the idea of Islam being a political movement as well as a means of personal salvation is certainly not new, nor is the idea of jihad being about big swords and conquest as well as the inner struggle with sin.

It's a bit disingenuous, therefore, to suggest that the aims of ISIS and their fellow travellers are un-islamic. They're totally in keeping with the acts and instructions of the prophet himself.

What is un-islamic about these wankers are their methods. The murder of non-combatants, especially children, is not considered acceptable by most Muslims. Nor are things like burning down churches and monasteries - Muhammad was pretty clear on this subject (just ask the monks of the monastery of St Catherine on Sinai).

Again, though, just because the prophet said one thing doesn't mean that Muslims haven't spent the last millennium and a half doing the exact opposite.

So, yeah, islamists are Muslims, with clear islamic intentions. They're just really nasty ones who don't really represent the mindset of most of the rest of their coreligionists (even if many of them agree with the end result: the restoration of the Caliphate).
"many of them agree with the end result: the restoration of the Caliphate" from a very high helicopter view maybe?

But as soon as you get even a little bit closer then there are major irreconcilable differences

The Sunni branch of Islam stipulates that, as a head of state, a Caliph should be elected by Muslims or their representatives.
The Shia branch of Islam believe a Caliph should be an Imam chosen by God from Muhammad's direct descendants.

The chances of these two major groups being able to work together to produce a Caliphate are close to zero.

Anyway the the second of the four major caliphates established after the death of Muhammad was the Umayyad Caliphate.
This covered 11,100,000 km2 and containing 62 million people (29% of the world's population) was one of the largest empires in history in both area and proportion of the world's population, however it was secular in nature!

So DB maybe you and I should get together and form our own secular Caliphate?
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  #107  
Old 04.06.2017, 21:27
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Re: 'Van hits pedestrians' on London Bridge in 'major incident'

Ah, but it doesn't seem to have been a "proper" caliphate. From further down the Wiki page:

"According to one common view, the Umayyads transformed the caliphate from a religious institution (during the rashidun) to a dynastic one.[70] However, the Umayyad caliphs do seem to have understood themselves as the representatives of God on earth, and to have been responsible for the "definition and elaboration of God's ordinances, or in other words the definition or elaboration of Islamic law."[71]

The Umayyads have met with a largely negative reception from later Islamic historians, who have accused them of promoting a kingship (mulk, a term with connotations of tyranny) instead of a true caliphate (khilafa). In this respect it is notable that the Umayyad caliphs referred to themselves not as khalifat rasul Allah ("successor of the messenger of God", the title preferred by the tradition), but rather as khalifat Allah ("deputy of God"). The distinction seems to indicate that the Umayyads "regarded themselves as God's representatives at the head of the community and saw no need to share their religious power with, or delegate it to, the emergent class of religious scholars."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umayyad_Caliphate
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  #108  
Old 04.06.2017, 21:31
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Re: 'Van hits pedestrians' on London Bridge in 'major incident'

Fascinating, as history can be. That's not sarcastic. Even so, I'm fairly sure that the majority of the Moslems I know wouldn't know much about all that, or if so, not think it to have any or much relevance in their lives, now. Perhaps, though, such influences from the past feel relevant to others.
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  #109  
Old 04.06.2017, 21:39
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Re: 'Van hits pedestrians' on London Bridge in 'major incident'

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That question has actually been answered, "most" instances in the US where gun crime is endemic the "use `em or lose `em" gun right advocates are actually the first to scatter, those who actually use a gun to stop "the bad guy" usually end up with "collaterals" (note the use of air quotes) and only in a handful of incidents has a armed citizen been able to stop more carnage.
Nonsense, there have been many times, where a gun owner has stopped carnage, robbery, home invasions, etc.. The difference is, those stories usually don't make the news.
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  #110  
Old 04.06.2017, 21:47
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Re: 'Van hits pedestrians' on London Bridge in 'major incident'

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Ah so if maybe they stopped giving away citzenship like confetti and , oh I don't know make it revocable then hey presto - we're all David Copperfield!
Is it very easy to get UK citizenship?
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  #111  
Old 04.06.2017, 22:03
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Re: 'Van hits pedestrians' on London Bridge in 'major incident'

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Theresa May: London Bridge attack shows 'we are too tolerant of extremism'
http://news.sky.com/story/theresa-ma...emism-10903867

Yea, it's been getting a little out of hand lately, I think she needs to write them a letter and tell them to "tone it down a bit"
I was hoping the UK would have a zero-tolerance approach to Islamic jihadists, but I guess being a little less tolerant would be a step in the right direction. Maybe take away their PlayStation's if they don't behave a little better...
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  #112  
Old 04.06.2017, 22:04
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Re: 'Van hits pedestrians' on London Bridge in 'major incident'

So, did Blair or Bush go to jail for their unfounded invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan?
It is an asymmetrical warfare. The West overthrown all the non-islamic regimes in ME. It is a complete blindness not to relate the ME mayhem with what happens in Europe. Seeing it only as some religious extremism split from ME and Pakistan/Afghanistan wars is missing most of the background. That people feel more loyalty to their own ethnicity, language and habits is no surprise to anyone who saw peoples without their own statehood survive centuries if not millennia.
There is such an outcry when a few civilians were lost in the warfare, but general cheering for "love from Manchester" painted bombs from RAF, and no picture at all of RAF bombings victims shows the general hypocrisies about the bigger picture.
We bomb them - justice served, peace mission, whatever. They bomb us - radicals, fanatics, cruel animals.
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  #113  
Old 04.06.2017, 22:16
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Re: 'Van hits pedestrians' on London Bridge in 'major incident'

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So, did Blair or Bush go to jail for their unfounded invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan?
It is an asymmetrical warfare. The West overthrown all the non-islamic regimes in ME. It is a complete blindness not to relate the ME mayhem with what happens in Europe. Seeing it only as some religious extremism split from ME and Pakistan/Afghanistan wars is missing most of the background. That people feel more loyalty to their own ethnicity, language and habits is no surprise to anyone who saw peoples without their own statehood survive centuries if not millennia.
There is such an outcry when a few civilians were lost in the warfare, but general cheering for "love from Manchester" painted bombs from RAF, and no picture at all of RAF bombings victims shows the general hypocrisies about the bigger picture.
We bomb them - justice served, peace mission, whatever. They bomb us - radicals, fanatics, cruel animals.
Do the USAF and RAF deliberately target little girls at concerts and young women enjoying a night out?
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  #114  
Old 04.06.2017, 22:21
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Re: 'Van hits pedestrians' on London Bridge in 'major incident'

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http://news.sky.com/story/theresa-ma...emism-10903867

Yea, it's been getting a little out of hand lately, I think she needs to write them a letter and tell them to "tone it down a bit"
I was hoping the UK would have a zero-tolerance approach to Islamic jihadists, but I guess being a little less tolerant would be a step in the right direction. Maybe take away their PlayStation's if they don't behave a little better...
I love this post...it's satirical and on point!
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  #115  
Old 04.06.2017, 22:58
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Re: 'Van hits pedestrians' on London Bridge in 'major incident'

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Do the USAF and RAF deliberately target little girls at concerts and young women enjoying a night out?
I hope you know that they're factoring it into the sorties flown. Since when are bombs as precise as a bullets?
There are just no news media outlets that would flood the public consciousness with massacred babies bodies, not even the sacred Charlie Hebdo gutter called heroes will risk loosing French state subvention or who knows what blessing to show the croissant-eaters pictures that they would make them vomit. And they could flood the TV news with with 24 hours a day, there would have been enough.
But I know that these these pictures circulate in news outlets, social networks and in private emails, also between non-muslims from ME, and the anger and hatred it causes.
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  #116  
Old 04.06.2017, 23:27
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Re: 'Van hits pedestrians' on London Bridge in 'major incident'

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Is it very easy to get UK citizenship?
No
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  #117  
Old 04.06.2017, 23:30
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Re: 'Van hits pedestrians' on London Bridge in 'major incident'

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Ah, but it doesn't seem to have been a "proper" caliphate. From further down the Wiki page:

"According to one common view, the Umayyads transformed the caliphate from a religious institution (during the rashidun) to a dynastic one.[70] However, the Umayyad caliphs do seem to have understood themselves as the representatives of God on earth, and to have been responsible for the "definition and elaboration of God's ordinances, or in other words the definition or elaboration of Islamic law."[71]

The Umayyads have met with a largely negative reception from later Islamic historians, who have accused them of promoting a kingship (mulk, a term with connotations of tyranny) instead of a true caliphate (khilafa). In this respect it is notable that the Umayyad caliphs referred to themselves not as khalifat rasul Allah ("successor of the messenger of God", the title preferred by the tradition), but rather as khalifat Allah ("deputy of God"). The distinction seems to indicate that the Umayyads "regarded themselves as God's representatives at the head of the community and saw no need to share their religious power with, or delegate it to, the emergent class of religious scholars."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umayyad_Caliphate
Bin to the Umayyad mosque in Damascus, absolutely beautiful, pity it´s now just a hole in the middle of the city.
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  #118  
Old 05.06.2017, 01:01
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Re: 'Van hits pedestrians' on London Bridge in 'major incident'

Seems carrying on as normal didn't work.

These attacks will not stop, they will only get worse.
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  #119  
Old 05.06.2017, 01:45
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Re: 'Van hits pedestrians' on London Bridge in 'major incident'

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A system which encourages would be immigrants to burn their papers in order to have a better chance at immigration isn't helping at all. Surely ISIS are sending their best and brightest.

Reminds me of when the US was accepting any Cubans who made it to US soil as instant citizens, so Castro sent all the criminals he could. A win-win for Cuba...
"Surely ISIS are sending their best and brightest." Those will be the ones wearing fake suicide vests made of coffee tins?
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  #120  
Old 05.06.2017, 02:49
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Re: 'Van hits pedestrians' on London Bridge in 'major incident'

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Seems carrying on as normal didn't work.

These attacks will not stop, they will only get worse.
You appear to think there's an alternative to carrying on as normal. Did NYC stop being NYC? No it didn't, so Manchester and London will remain the same.

What does add insult to injury however, is a PM saying that the UK hasn't done enough to prevent attacks when it was her job...her actual job...as Home Secretary, yet police numbers were cut on her watch. In any other field of employment, she'd have been sacked by now.
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