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View Poll Results: My view on the election is:
Vote CON; Expect CON; Wish for CON 13 36.11%
Vote CON; Expect CON; Wish for LAB 1 2.78%
Vote CON; Expect LAB; Wish for CON 0 0%
Vote CON; Expect LAB; Wish for LAB 0 0%
Vote LAB; Expect LAB; Wish for LAB 2 5.56%
Vote LAB; Expect LAB; Wish for CON 0 0%
Vote LAB; Expect CON; Wish for LAB 17 47.22%
Vote LAB; Expect CON; Wish for CON 3 8.33%
Voters: 36. You may not vote on this poll

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  #121  
Old 09.06.2017, 21:36
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Re: UK Election 2017 - Results Thread

Astonishing thing is LP+SNP+LD isn't enough

Too bad really.

Labour needs an absolute majority in the next election.
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  #122  
Old 09.06.2017, 21:41
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Re: UK Election 2017 - Results Thread

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Why? It's alien to British political culture, would open the door to some very dodgy parties and nobody wants it except a few whiny Lib Dems.
Totally agree. And if you think a hung Parliament means nothing will get done, try proportion representation. Even more haggling and back scratching to get anything passed. No thanks.
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  #123  
Old 09.06.2017, 21:42
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Re: UK Election 2017 - Results Thread

It is a huge disincentive for people to vote, again and again, in areas which are polarised, and have been for centuries, on 'class' lines.

We lived between 2 large council estates- where if anyone was not Labour, be they Greens, Tories, Lib Dems or Ukip (as you say so often, democracy) - knew that it was not worth getting to the Polling station- just as I knew it too.

I have never missed a vote - in now 44 years - but every time I knew it would go straight in the bin- same for OH. How democratic is that?

Then we wonder why British society is still so polarised, from generation, to generation and some more.

Medea- what about Switzerland. Everything is done as a coalition.

We now have a coalition in the UK - WITH THE D U P ! No?

https://www.facebook.com/Channel4New...4921679231939/

Last edited by Odile; 09.06.2017 at 22:23.
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  #124  
Old 09.06.2017, 21:49
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Re: UK Election 2017 - Results Thread

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Nope. 43.3%.
Ah, I get you now. But that has nothing to do with FPTP vs PR voting. The UK is divided into constituencies, each of which is represented by one MP, and s/he is the one boy person the voters in each constituency can vote for. It wouldn't matter which system of voting was used, you're still left with requiring a majority of seats. If one party won the magic 326 seats with wafer-thin majorities in each seat, and lost everybody other seat in a landslide—regardless of the voting system—they'd be in government having won as little as 26% of the popular vote. It sounds like you want direct election of the PM, but as we've seen in the US, even then, winning the popular vote doesn't guarantee that you win the race. And unchecked popular voting in the UK would simply ensure that whatever London and the Home Counties want, they get.
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  #125  
Old 09.06.2017, 21:50
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Re: UK Election 2017 - Results Thread

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Why? It's alien to British political culture, would open the door to some very dodgy parties and nobody wants it except a few whiny Lib Dems.
Alien to the UK but practiced in most of Europe quite successfully. Including the one you seem to ge happy to live in.

A small threshold of maybe 3% would keep the real loonies out. More than that and they're entitled to have their voice heard
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  #126  
Old 09.06.2017, 21:54
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Re: UK Election 2017 - Results Thread

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...It sounds like you want direct election of the PM, but as we've seen in the US, even then, winning the popular vote doesn't guarantee that you win the race...
No. I want proper proportional representation. Should still be with a strong regional component but PR. Something like NR votes here.
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  #127  
Old 09.06.2017, 21:56
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Re: UK Election 2017 - Results Thread

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I have never missed a vote - in now 44 years - but every time I knew it would go straight in the bin- same for OH. How democratic is that?
Ummmmm... 100%. The people speak, the majority or largest group get their way. That's exactly democratic.

It's not as though you all take turns to get what you want. "My party lost the last four elections so it's their turn this time." No, it doesn't work like that.
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  #128  
Old 09.06.2017, 21:59
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Re: UK Election 2017 - Results Thread

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Alien to the UK but practiced in most of Europe quite successfully. Including the one you seem to ge happy to live in.

A small threshold of maybe 3% would keep the real loonies out. More than that and they're entitled to have their voice heard
Is that the "most of Europe" that has come within a whisker of electing several fascists to high office in the last couple of years?

Sounds great!
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  #129  
Old 09.06.2017, 22:07
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Re: UK Election 2017 - Results Thread

I favor German style.

First of all they have a very strong Chancellor and that's a good thing.

Coalition or majority parliament works just fine.

They don't even have a constitution just basic law.

So Germans know stuff
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  #130  
Old 09.06.2017, 22:11
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Re: UK Election 2017 - Results Thread

Switzerland also works from the bottom up to a great extent - 3-4 referedums voted on by the people several times a year with the vote being binding on the government to act upon those decisions. That wouldn't work in the UK either because we're not used to it.

If people feel strongly enough about a party and its policies then they should vote for that party whether it gets anywhere or not. That's how things change, not fiddling around with the system to make disgruntled minority voters feel better. Not enough people feel strongly enough about LibDem, Greens, UKIP or the others to make a difference so why should the system be changed to pander to their bleating about how unfair it all is? I can guarantee they wouldn't be saying that if any of them were the party in power.

Coalition governments aren't that unusual in UK politics, though the 2010 one was the first for 36 years. Not all last for very long though and except for the 2010 one they've all been when the UK has been at war.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United...ion_government
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  #131  
Old 09.06.2017, 22:16
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Re: UK Election 2017 - Results Thread

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No. I want proper proportional representation. Should still be with a strong regional component but PR. Something like NR votes here.
Precisely.

Just going off 2010 parliamentary constituency electorate figures:
Isle of Wight 110,924
Wigan 76,799
Manchester Gorton 74,681
Windsor 70,633
Islington North 68,777
Kensington 62,784
Liverpool Wavertree 61,679
Bridgend 59,533
Na h-Eileanan an Iar 21,837.

How can that be seen as fair when I believe the average number of voters per constituency is 70,000?
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  #132  
Old 09.06.2017, 22:27
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Re: UK Election 2017 - Results Thread

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Switzerland also works from the bottom up to a great extent - 3-4 referedums voted on by the people several times a year with the vote being binding on the government to act upon those decisions. That wouldn't work in the UK either because we're not used to it.
I think the biggest strength of the Swiss system is that precisely because the referendums get the voters out to the polls so often the politicians don't get a chance to make politics into a game for themselves. The passing around of roles, and the rules for allocating the seats at the top is another balance, but the main mechanism which keeps the politicians in check is the fact that they get feedback more often than every 4th year.

EDIT: And the feedback doesn't come from strategists, pollsters, the press, beltway bandits or any other pundit at the trough, but directly from the punters who's lives they influence.
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  #133  
Old 09.06.2017, 22:27
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Re: UK Election 2017 - Results Thread

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Is that the "most of Europe" that has come within a whisker of electing several fascists to high office in the last couple of years?

Sounds great!
Under the UK electoral system they would have been elected.
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  #134  
Old 09.06.2017, 22:29
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Re: UK Election 2017 - Results Thread

You always go on and on about Democracy...So do you want it- or not- Ukip or no Ukip - which as you know I despise.


North East Fife - 3 votes

Newcastle-u-Lyme - 30

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017...htest-results/
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  #135  
Old 09.06.2017, 22:33
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Re: UK Election 2017 - Results Thread

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The passing around of roles, and the rules for allocating the seats at the top is another balance, but the main mechanism which keeps the politicians in check is the fact that they get feedback more often than every 4th year.
I put this forward to a friend yesterday as a possible different method of government, in a "What if..." format. He said it was a utopian idea that could never work in the UK, and several other friends chipped in to say it could never work in practice.
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  #136  
Old 09.06.2017, 22:36
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Re: UK Election 2017 - Results Thread

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I put this forward to a friend yesterday as a possible different method of government, in a "What if..." format. He said it was a utopian idea that could never work in the UK, and several other friends chipped in to say it could never work in practice.
Ah yes... "It wasn't invented here". Did they also say "There's a war on, don't you know."?
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  #137  
Old 09.06.2017, 22:50
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Re: UK Election 2017 - Results Thread

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Why? It's alien to British political culture, would open the door to some very dodgy parties and nobody wants it except a few whiny Lib Dems.
The DUP!? Dodgy indeed:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...2016916&type=3
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  #138  
Old 09.06.2017, 22:51
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Re: UK Election 2017 - Results Thread

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Under the UK electoral system they would have been elected.
But we've never had a fascist sit in Parliament in living memory, let alone get a sniff of government, so we must be doing something right.
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  #139  
Old 09.06.2017, 22:53
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Re: UK Election 2017 - Results Thread

Indeed. They got in because of a hung parliament, which is very rare in British politics under the FPP system.

I think that proves my point beautifully. Thank you.

(By the way, your link is inaccessible, so I have no idea what it says. Could you provide a summary, please?)
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  #140  
Old 09.06.2017, 22:57
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Re: UK Election 2017 - Results Thread

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I think the biggest strength of the Swiss system is that precisely because the referendums get the voters out to the polls so often the politicians don't get a chance to make politics into a game for themselves. The passing around of roles, and the rules for allocating the seats at the top is another balance, but the main mechanism which keeps the politicians in check is the fact that they get feedback more often than every 4th year.

EDIT: And the feedback doesn't come from strategists, pollsters, the press, beltway bandits or any other pundit at the trough, but directly from the punters who's lives they influence.
I agree JagWaugh, it works very well - for the Swiss. How well it would work for any other country is another question. If it was adopted I can see a deluge of (mostly spurious/irrelevant) initiatives to be voted on plus problems in how to actually persuade the various parties to share things out amongst themselves. In the UK coalitions sort of work because they have to, not because they want to. Changing that mindset would take a awful lot of work.

I still find it odd that any Irish and qualifying Commonwealth citizens resident in the UK at the time of an election can vote.

http://www.electoralcommission.org.u...neral-election

I doubt any British nationals resident in those countries are allowed to vote in their general elections so why do we allow it in ours.
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