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  #221  
Old 17.06.2017, 14:39
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

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I do not at all like where this train of thought is heading.

Is the death of a brilliant architect more tragic than the death of an unemployed layabout?

What does it matter how brilliant the individuals were. Any death is equally tragic.
One person contributes meaningfully to society - the other does not - so given the information provided I consider the loss of the architect as being much greater.
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  #222  
Old 17.06.2017, 14:50
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

This thread really is bringing out the best and worst of people
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  #223  
Old 17.06.2017, 14:53
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

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One person contributes meaningfully to society - the other does not - so given the information provided I consider the loss of the architect as being much greater.
So, by that logic the loss of children, and especially babies, is what exactly?
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  #224  
Old 17.06.2017, 15:01
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

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One person contributes meaningfully to society - the other does not - so given the information provided I consider the loss of the architect as being much greater.
Except for perhaps, the architect who helped plan the renovations of the building...

This line of logic is pathetic.
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  #225  
Old 17.06.2017, 15:03
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

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Except for perhaps, the architect who helped plan the renovations of the building...
or Albert Speer
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Old 17.06.2017, 15:51
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

I'm skimming through this thread, as I make it a policy to avoid any potentially political topics. However:

I'm shocked at some of the reactions here.

There are at least two separate issues: The lack of government regulation on housing standards, and the implementation of these standards.

Based on what is known so far I personally believe that there is a criminal offence, at the above level, that will be made transparent during the relevant investigations.

I do not see why race should impact any discussion on this topic.

The likely-hood of such a horrific incident are greatly reduced in countries such as Switzerland, and others, who have clear building regulations.
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  #227  
Old 17.06.2017, 15:56
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

The UK does have clear building regs - the issue is that some of these appear to have been "circumvented" on cost grounds, hence the potential criminal charges.
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Old 17.06.2017, 16:36
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

Nick Paget-Brown head of Kensington Council said they didn't put sprinklers in because the residents didn't want the disruption.

Is there no end to the BS councils throw out at the public? It's no wonder they are all in hiding.

Like saying we didn't fix the traffic lights at a dangerous busy junction because car drivers didn't want the disruption.

Has anyone been fired yet?
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Old 17.06.2017, 16:49
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

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Nick Paget-Brown head of Kensington Council said they didn't put sprinklers in because the residents didn't want the disruption.

Is there no end to the BS councils throw out at the public?
Particularly seeing as it would have been less disruption than having new windows and heating fitted, which apparently, was part of the work recently done. In fact, the work could probably have been done alongside the heating system.
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Old 17.06.2017, 17:03
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

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I do not at all like where this train of thought is heading.

Is the death of a brilliant architect more tragic than the death of an unemployed layabout?

What does it matter how brilliant the individuals were. Any death is equally tragic.
No not at all, that's completely not the point I'm making. The post is in response to the disgraceful posting earlier implying that social housing residents are all layabout illegal spongers who should be deported. Given such a judgement that such people are worthless I am highlighting that you can shouldn't criticize anyone regardless of their status or style and showing that in life you will always have people more talented than yourself so it's idiotic to criticize people because of their social status.
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  #231  
Old 17.06.2017, 17:05
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

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Has anyone been fired yet?

I imagine it's only a matter of time. I suspect there will also be a flurry of well-timed resignations on "personal grounds" as people are told to fall on their swords. Arrests will probably follow - how quietly this is done will likely depend upon how high up the food chain the person is.

It's a nasty business, no doubt. I hope the nice people of Kensington and Chelsea who wanted the "eyesore" building beautifying are enjoying their new view.
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  #232  
Old 17.06.2017, 17:09
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

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Nick Paget-Brown head of Kensington Council said they didn't put sprinklers in because the residents didn't want the disruption.

Is there no end to the BS councils throw out at the public? It's no wonder they are all in hiding.

Like saying we didn't fix the traffic lights at a dangerous busy junction because car drivers didn't want the disruption.

Has anyone been fired yet?

Well, I can see how sprinklers could get in the way of somebody smoking - or frying a large turkey... or lighting a christmas tree with actual candles.

Maybe this was discussed on the previous pages - but how exactly does such a sprinkler-system work in preventing false positives?

Do you only have sprinklers outside the flats, in the common areas or also inside?

Each time, the fire brigade has to come, you have to pay for it (AFAIK).
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  #233  
Old 17.06.2017, 17:24
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

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The post is in response to the disgraceful posting earlier implying that social housing residents are all layabout illegal spongers who should be deported.
Precisely.
I was a social housing / council flat tenant for 8yrs from the age of 23-31. When I got a job, I worked 60hrs a week on rotating 12hrs shifts to save up the deposit for a house. In the end, I didn't need it due to an inheritance. Most of my neighbours worked at the same factory as me, all of us saving up for the day when we could buy one of the new houses a few streets away.
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  #234  
Old 17.06.2017, 17:27
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

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I imagine it's only a matter of time. I suspect there will also be a flurry of well-timed resignations on "personal grounds" as people are told to fall on their swords. Arrests will probably follow - how quietly this is done will likely depend upon how high up the food chain the person is.

It's a nasty business, no doubt. I hope the nice people of Kensington and Chelsea who wanted the "eyesore" building beautifying are enjoying their new view.
The person that made the decision on the building re-structuring should be made accountable for the loss of all these lives
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  #235  
Old 17.06.2017, 17:29
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

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Well, I can see how sprinklers could get in the way of somebody smoking - or frying a large turkey... or lighting a christmas tree with actual candles.
Sprinklers respond to an intense, localised heat source. They only activate in that vacinity to contain the fire. Frying whole turkeys is an American thing, and largely unheard of in the UK, as is using real candles to light a Christmas tree.
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  #236  
Old 17.06.2017, 17:30
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

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The person that made the decision on the re-structuring should be made accountable for the loss of all these lives


No argument here. The problem will be in locating that person. If I was a betting woman, I'll bet that the person(s) eventually convicted didn't have the "buck stops here" final say. That person will probably have "retired" by then. Unless this time public outrage actually manages to pierce the collective arse-covering hide and the actual person is actually charged.




Totally frivolous OT question and I feel a bit bad for asking - but why fry a whole turkey? How long does it take? Wow.
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Old 17.06.2017, 17:35
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

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I imagine it's only a matter of time. I suspect there will also be a flurry of well-timed resignations on "personal grounds" as people are told to fall on their swords. Arrests will probably follow - how quietly this is done will likely depend upon how high up the food chain the person is.

It's a nasty business, no doubt. I hope the nice people of Kensington and Chelsea who wanted the "eyesore" building beautifying are enjoying their new view.
I thought it was unreal that May hired the unseated Croydon MP, only for him to come into the firing line for his involvement in the delayed fire safety review.

The default language in local councils/government for years was not to spend any money if at all possible, avoid all costly policies or any reviews resulting in expensive action.

Guess May will end up unhiring Barwell some day soon.

Something feels really rotten about all this.
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  #238  
Old 17.06.2017, 17:51
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

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No argument here. The problem will be in locating that person. If I was a betting woman, I'll bet that the person(s) eventually convicted didn't have the "buck stops here" final say. That person will probably have "retired" by then. Unless this time public outrage actually manages to pierce the collective arse-covering hide and the actual person is actually charged.




Totally frivolous OT question and I feel a bit bad for asking - but why fry a whole turkey? How long does it take? Wow.
It will be the person who signed the contract to install the inflammable material - knowing the risks of taking this cheap alternative who is accountable.
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  #239  
Old 17.06.2017, 18:12
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

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It will be the person who signed the contract to install the inflammable material - knowing the risks of taking this cheap alternative who is accountable.
There was a guy on reddit who claimed that all what was done was within legal limits and it could well be that everybody involved could walk at the end - because nobody really broke the law.

He claimed to be a fire suppression engineer or some sort of.

Furthermore, he says he has various buildings under his regime where conditions are basically as dire as in that block. Landlords have been informed multiple times, but nothing has happened so far.

From the people in that thread, I got the understanding that due to supply and demand, it's usually not necessary to invest a lot in a building to get renters.
Laws and regulations also give a lot of leeway.

So, the (so far) 58 victims are likely not the last to die from a building fire.
As buildings age and the electrical installations age with them (and more consumers drawing from them), we can expect more fires, more victims and more funerals.

When I was in Copenhagen almost 10 years ago for a conference, I stayed on level 16 of a 20-ish story youth-hostel (great view, BTW).

I walked down those stairs once or twice (saw a documentary many years back, have been doing this at every place since then).

Walking down that many flights is really quite a thing, even when the light is on and no smoke at all.


BTW: this interview with the chief of the Frankfurt Fire Brigade (the same guy as in the beginning of above video) is very interesting:

http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/gesel...a-1152148.html

Germany apparently has a lot more regulations and the fire brigades actually have a lot of say in the design and construction of buildings.
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  #240  
Old 17.06.2017, 18:20
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

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is there anybody here who actually knows the location.

I'm confused by rather contradictory information. On the one hand this is supposed to be a rubbish building, provided by the Tories to to put away the poor in squalid sub-human conditions. On the other hand there appear to have been appartments like this, which maybe shout chavvish and poor taste, but don't exactly say poor or squalid. That doesn't exactly correlate with the narrative.

What sort of place was it really?
I know the area well, or used to. I've not actually been to the block, or those round about, like Trellick Tower, for many years. They were built as social housing, or 'council flats' as we would say -- and many still are. But Thatcher brought in the law that gave long-term council tenants the right to buy, so some of the tenants here took advantage of that, and either rented them out or sold them on.

So the answer is that it was a mixture of many things -- long-term council renters, short-term emergency housing, and privately owned. I strongly suspect that anyone who claimed the right to buy will have fairly quickly sold up and moved on, as it's a bit grim. Or certainly used to be.

Anyone who's ever driven into London on the elevated A40, or Westway, will have seen Grenfell and the other blocks and probably thought they were a bit of an eyesore.
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