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  #261  
Old 17.06.2017, 21:41
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

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Are you saying that no migrants are unemployed layabouts ???

See what I did there ? Kindly argue with facts rather than your beating heart , if possible.
I don't see how migrants, unwed mothers, school leavers, unemployed, layabouts, criminals, illegal immigrants, legal immigrants, foreign students, or any other human being somehow "deserves" to die in a building fire, or that the loss of any life through corporate, municipal, federal, or man with a van negligence, greed, lack of foresight, or any other preventable cause is somehow acceptable.

Perhaps I'm too much of an engineer to understand how a machine like a building would not be built, maintained, or renovated to ensure that the people who live within are not at mortal risk from the building itself.

Perhaps I'm too much of a humanist to let go of the fundamental truth that every single human life is as valuable as the next.
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  #262  
Old 17.06.2017, 21:53
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

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Are you saying that no migrants are unemployed layabouts ???

See what I did there ? Kindly argue with facts rather than your beating heart , if possible.
Are you saying that none of the children and babies that are missing and dead are migrants? (Nope, I will let my heart bleed, because
I have one)
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  #263  
Old 17.06.2017, 21:58
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

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Are you saying that no migrants are unemployed layabouts ???

See what I did there ? Kindly argue with facts rather than your beating heart , if possible.
No-one has said that, have they?

However I can say that I do know many Brits who are indeed such - and the fact they are Brits makes no difference to me at all- for sure. Irrelevant, totally irrelevant - but had to be said in response to your champion twattish post.
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Old 17.06.2017, 22:09
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

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I don't see how migrants, unwed mothers, school leavers, unemployed, layabouts, criminals, illegal immigrants, legal immigrants, foreign students, or any other human being somehow "deserves" to die in a building fire, or that the loss of any life through corporate, municipal, federal, or man with a van negligence, greed, lack of foresight, or any other preventable cause is somehow acceptable.
I'm sorry to say it, because I obviously agree 100% with your comment as a general truth, but that is a really quite unfair thing to say in the context of this thread. Yes, one or two people have made rash statements but unless posts have been deleted that I've not seen, no one has come close to saying the things you're tub-thumping about here.

Come on all, let's keep a sense of proportion. Every one here is dismayed and upset about the Grenfell tragedy. Let's not turn our emotions on each other.
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  #265  
Old 17.06.2017, 22:34
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

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No-one has said that, have they?

However I can say that I do know many Brits who are indeed such - and the fact they are Brits makes no difference to me at all- for sure. Irrelevant, totally irrelevant - but had to be said in response to your champion twattish post.
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  #266  
Old 17.06.2017, 22:40
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

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I don't see how migrants, unwed mothers, school leavers, unemployed, layabouts, criminals, illegal immigrants, legal immigrants, foreign students, or any other human being somehow "deserves" to die in a building fire, or that the loss of any life through corporate, municipal, federal, or man with a van negligence, greed, lack of foresight, or any other preventable cause is somehow acceptable.



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Perhaps I'm too much of a humanist to let go of the fundamental truth that every single human life is as valuable as the next.
You might be - and that's your right - but I don't recall you holding to this argument after the three terrorists were shot dead (within 8 minutes) recently.
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  #267  
Old 17.06.2017, 22:43
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

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I'm sorry to say it, because I obviously agree 100% with your comment as a general truth, but that is a really quite unfair thing to say in the context of this thread. Yes, one or two people have made rash statements but unless posts have been deleted that I've not seen, no one has come close to saying the things you're tub-thumping about here.

Come on all, let's keep a sense of proportion. Every one here is dismayed and upset about the Grenfell tragedy. Let's not turn our emotions on each other.
Wait for the enquiry (hopefully it won't get tweaked). My bet is that it will turn out that at various times, multiple decisions will have been taken, knowingly or unknowingly which boil down to little other than "The people within didn't deserve my/our utmost care and attention."

Nobody will actually come out and say that. But that will be the underlying fault.

There will be many interest groups who will tub thump (it's already starting), but much of that will also not be for the sake of anything other than that group making a power grab.

Here is the rough form "It's not my fault that the inspectors didn't notice that my subcontractors or suppliers delivered substandard work, I have contracts, drawings, and standards documents to prove that I fulfilled my legal obligations."

Upset? Mad hoppingly so.

The world slowly goes to hell in a handbasket because everyone thinks that their handbasket is only their concern, and if it happens to be someone else's disadvantage then that's just the luck of the draw. And if anyone dares to question the almighty self interest, then they are seen to be tub thumping, virtue signaling, moralizing, economically naive, or idealistic.

Think back to Philip Green's testimony after the BHS debacle. The twat was so hopelessly distanced from being a human being that at one point he thought the big issue was how people should control their facial expression while questioning him about his involvement in something which deproved a great many people of livelihoods and pensions.

Mine is a small tub, not very flashy, and not particularly loud. I'll keep thumping it, if it's all the same to you.
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  #268  
Old 17.06.2017, 22:49
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

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You might be - and that's your right - but I don't recall you holding to this argument after the three terrorists were shot dead (within 8 minutes) recently.
The fact he wrote "every human life" in his post answers your comment.
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  #269  
Old 17.06.2017, 22:56
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

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You might be - and that's your right - but I don't recall you holding to this argument after the three terrorists were shot dead (within 8 minutes) recently.
Well, seeing as there haven't been any press reports (yet) which indicate that any of the fire victims were engaged in, or contemplating, taking up arms, then you're failing to make an important distinction.

If you take up armed struggle, then conventional morality gets put aside (by both sides). If this isn't acceptable to you, then don't take up arms.

If you're a burden on the state, does your life become worthless, or worth less to the state?

I personally think that the mark of a good state is how it treats it's weakest. I don't think they need to have every wish fulfilled, but I do think they should be able to go to bed without fearing that the building they live in will kill them.

Perhaps you don't see a difference between going to bed, and taking up an armed struggle. I do.
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  #270  
Old 17.06.2017, 23:00
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

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The fact he wrote "every human life" in his post answers your comment.
On the contrary terrorists do not cease to be human when they decide to enter into armed struggle.

The later caveats JagWaugh now brings into the argument demonstrate the falsity of the original statement.

He clearly values terrorists lives less than that of non terrorists - therefore his statement "Perhaps I'm too much of a humanist to let go of the fundamental truth that every single human life is as valuable as the next." is false - even for him.
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  #271  
Old 17.06.2017, 23:03
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

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Wait for the enquiry (hopefully it won't get tweaked). My bet is that it will turn out that at various times, multiple decisions will have been taken, knowingly or unknowingly which boil down to little other than "The people within didn't deserve my/our utmost care and attention."

Nobody will actually come out and say that. But that will be the underlying fault.

There will be many interest groups who will tub thump (it's already starting), but much of that will also not be for the sake of anything other than that group making a power grab.

Here is the rough form "It's not my fault that the inspectors didn't notice that my subcontractors or suppliers delivered substandard work, I have contracts, drawings, and standards documents to prove that I fulfilled my legal obligations."

Upset? Mad hoppingly so.

The world slowly goes to hell in a handbasket because everyone thinks that their handbasket is only their concern, and if it happens to be someone else's disadvantage then that's just the luck of the draw. And if anyone dares to question the almighty self interest, then they are seen to be tub thumping, virtue signaling, moralizing, economically naive, or idealistic.

Think back to Philip Green's testimony after the BHS debacle. The twat was so hopelessly distanced from being a human being that at one point he thought the big issue was how people should control their facial expression while questioning him about his involvement in something which deproved a great many people of livelihoods and pensions.

Mine is a small tub, not very flashy, and not particularly loud. I'll keep thumping it, if it's all the same to you.
No, it's not all the same to me. You're being irrational, lining up more straw man arguments than I've witnessed since my days in the students union. And now you've turned your fire on me, despite me trying to reassure you that the EF community certainly agrees with you. You have an unusual way of preaching your message of brotherly love and social justice.

Tip: Before you fire off your next salvo, make sure you're facing your enemy.
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  #272  
Old 17.06.2017, 23:05
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

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On the contrary terrorists do not cease to be human when they decide to enter into armed struggle.

The later caveats JagWaugh now brings into the argument demonstrate the falsity of the original statement.

He clearly values terrorists lives less than that of non terrorists - therefore his statement "Perhaps I'm too much of a humanist to let go of the fundamental truth that every single human life is as valuable as the next." is false - even for him.
Linguistically, I'll give you the point.

Let's put it this way. I find it regrettable that the police need to shoot to kill when some wacko goes on a shooting, knifing, bombing, or hit and run spree, but it can hardly be a surprise that anyone who wishes to kill someone else meets the same level of response.

How many of the dead and missing do you think were engaged in killing someone else?
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  #273  
Old 17.06.2017, 23:08
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

JagWaugh is a good guy - with excellent taste in literature - and a decent mind.
I definitely have no beef with him - but witness the mob who violently protested after the fire , they weren't interested in waiting until the truth came out - they were interested in more benefits - and could care less for the damage they caused.

I will not cheerlead for mob rule - because that rarely works out for anyone and least well for the society that allows it.
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  #274  
Old 17.06.2017, 23:10
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

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terrorists do not cease to be human when they decide to enter into armed struggle.
Yes, they certainly do!

An armed terrorist is at the level of a cockroach as far as I am concerned, and need to be dealt with as such.

Tom
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  #275  
Old 17.06.2017, 23:11
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

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Linguistically, I'll give you the point.
Respect

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Let's put it this way. I find it regrettable that the police need to shoot to kill when some wacko goes on a shooting, knifing, bombing, or hit and run spree, but it can hardly be a surprise that anyone who wishes to kill someone else meets the same level of response.
Fine with your view - but I find it MORE regrettable that the state cannot deal effectively a la Israel with combatants and their families imposing effective financial disincentives on shitty behaviour.

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How many of the dead and missing do you think were engaged in killing someone else?
I'd like to think none but I have the same knowledge of their engagement as you do - what i read in the press.
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  #276  
Old 17.06.2017, 23:12
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

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No, it's not all the same to me. You're being irrational, lining up more straw man arguments than I've witnessed since my days in the students union. And now you've turned your fire on me, despite me trying to reassure you that the EF community certainly agrees with you. You have an unusual way of preaching your message of brotherly love and social justice.

Tip: Before you fire off your next salvo, make sure you're facing your enemy.
Here's my next salvo:

Why do you feel it necessary to bring value laden terms to bear on me personally?

I don't see you as an enemy.

I can disagree with you without seeing you as an enemy, or throwing value laden terms about your posts.

Where did I mention brotherly love, or social justice? If you're going to take issue with what I wrote, then have the decency (every 1st year undergrad knows this) to take issue with what I wrote.

Even Parnell does this, and he spends most of his time chasing mice (and finding completely irrelevant gifs which he thinks makes me look silly).
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  #277  
Old 17.06.2017, 23:17
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

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Where did I mention brotherly love, or social justice? If you're going to take issue with what I wrote, then have the decency (every 1st year undergrad knows this) to take issue with what I wrote.
Oh come on - I am sure you have surely met some 1st year undergrads who could barely hold ANY argument - you've got a few extra years of maturity on me but they were still some there when even i was at Uni.

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Even Parnell does this, and he spends most of his time chasing mice (and finding completely irrelevant gifs which he thinks makes me look silly).
You do me too much credit sir ! I never intend to make you look silly - my intent was to point to the rather obvious flaw in your argument.
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  #278  
Old 17.06.2017, 23:20
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

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JagWaugh is a good guy - with excellent taste in literature - and a decent mind.
I definitely have no beef with him - but witness the mob who violently protested after the fire , they weren't interested in waiting until the truth came out - they were interested in more benefits - and could care less for the damage they caused.

I will not cheerlead for mob rule - because that rarely works out for anyone and least well for the society that allows it.
Yes, some of the clips and interviews of the protest struck me as little other than manifestations of a political power struggle which has nothing whatsoever to do with the fire and the human suffering it has caused.

I don't see a problem with wealthier neighbours wanting the building to be less of an eyesore - my problem is with the beautification making the building into a death trap.

Democracy is bad enough, mob rule is worse.
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Old 17.06.2017, 23:22
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

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Yes, they certainly do!

An armed terrorist is at the level of a cockroach as far as I am concerned, and need to be dealt with as such.

Tom
Even I do not think that they should be exterminated - why make martyrs of them ?? No - send them back to wherever they came from - with their families and associates and preferably to serve jailtime there - it is a lot less glorious ,a lot more punitive and a hell of a lot cheaper for society.
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Old 17.06.2017, 23:22
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

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If you're going to take issue with what I wrote, then have the decency (every 1st year undergrad knows this) to take issue with what I wrote.
Physician, heal thyself.
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