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  #321  
Old 18.06.2017, 17:41
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

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Phillip Hammond has just got in on the act on the BBC news website. Hat. Ring. Throw. Anyone?




Zuri - the UK is not going down the plughole. It makes me really sad (and not a little angry) at these kinds of comments. It is still a fabulous place to live. But then I don't live in a city high rise and I count myself very fortunate, every day.


You're right, of course, that this "should" never have happened. But it did. And somehow everyone has to move forward whilst firmly remembering what happened before so that it is never repeated.
The problem is that this has happened before in the U.K., and no action was taken then either
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  #322  
Old 18.06.2017, 17:49
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

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I must say I am very disappointed when I read back 2 posts from just 2 posters who in my opinion, should apologize for what they wrote. That's all it would take, a short apology to make most of us feel a whole lot better about who we mix with on this forum...
Yes, an apology can help others feel better if it is truly heart-felt. People who stand by what they wrote, said or did, however, be it here on this forum or out in Real Life, feel no need to apologise.
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  #323  
Old 18.06.2017, 18:59
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

Corbyn rabbiting on about confiscating other people's properties again.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-40319515

Funny how he's fixated on the luxury ones. What about all the lower end empty housing as well which would probably be more suitable? Won't mention those because it would upset his supporters I guess.

He really doesn't have a clue re compulsory purchase. Almost certain to be challenged in various courtrooms so wouldn't speed up anything and again you can get a lot more for your money compensating for several lower end properties than one luxury flat.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compulsory_purchase_order
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  #324  
Old 18.06.2017, 19:05
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

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Corbyn rabbiting on about confiscating other people's properties again.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-40319515

Funny how he's fixated on the luxury ones. What about all the lower end empty housing as well which would probably be more suitable? Won't mention those because it would upset his supporters I guess.

He really doesn't have a clue re compulsory purchase. Almost certain to be challenged in various courtrooms so wouldn't speed up anything and again you can get a lot more for your money compensating for several lower end properties than one luxury flat.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compulsory_purchase_order

You're an intelligent woman. You know that's not all that article says. It's quite balanced, all in all. You neglected to mention the bit where he actually seemed to support May's recent behaviour. Or at least offer a plausible excuse for it. He's certainly not put the boot in as he well could have. How about we all rise above the politics of it, eh?


He's right - not necessarily about compulsory purchases as that would set a worrying precedent about home ownership full stop - but the remark about hundreds of grounded travellers being found emergency accommodation at the drop of a hat. There is a housing crisis in London - has been for years. This has just brought it to a head.
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  #325  
Old 18.06.2017, 19:36
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

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C
He really doesn't have a clue re compulsory purchase. Almost certain to be challenged in various courtrooms so wouldn't speed up
He's probably dreaming of Soviet style kangaroo courts, able to rule on the basis of political expediency without having to consider the facts.
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  #326  
Old 18.06.2017, 19:39
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

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He's probably dreaming of Soviet style kangaroo courts, able to rule on the basis of political expediency without having to consider the facts.

Doubtful. Whatever your political leanings, "left wing" is not synonymous with "moron" any more that "right wing" is synonymous with "money-grabbing weasel."



It's Sunday. He's probably dreaming of a lie in and a fry up in the near future.
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  #327  
Old 18.06.2017, 19:40
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

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I think it's more than just housing, planning, and legislation and loopholes that need addressing. It's the "I'm alright Jack" stuff that lies at the root of the problem.
I never understand how entire nations can be accused of something -- or praised for something. The UK doesn't have any particular human characteristic. Politically, we are more divided at the moment than I've known in many years -- probably since Thatcher. The current hung parliament and the narrow EU referendum result illustrate this.

But are we inward-looking as a nation? I don't think so. In fact, the UK is one of the few who pay the requested 0.7% of national income into overseas development aid. Last time I looked we were in the top 5 in the world in terms of support. We are also one of the very few NATO members who pay their 2% into the NATO budget. We are home to nearly 4 million EU citizens and millions of ex-Commonwealth citizens. We are a leading supporter of global environmental initiatives. The UK has a pivotal role at the UN, and in driving the need for security intelligence sharing.

These are just a few things off the top of my head, but they all show that the UK is not an "I'm alright Jack" nation. And even internally, I'm always surprised and impressed at the abiding sense of community and generosity of people. Everywhere I've lived in the UK I've seen a strong voluntary sector. The one partial exception is London. With such a shifting population, communities are less cohesive, but they are still there, as we've seen from the events of the last week.

I'm not adopting a Panglossian attitude here -- we all know that things are far from perfect in the UK, but we are really not that bad. Apart from nations with far smaller populations where it's easier to create and maintain a flatter socio-economic class system, I'd say that the UK compares pretty well.

All that said, things at the moment seem bad, but we have short memories. It was only very recently with the Charlie Hebdo / Bataclan / Nice attacks that we thought France was falling apart, and congratulating ourselves on having had no big terrorism incidents for 12 years. Now, with the 3 UK attacks and recent election results in both countries, these positions seem to have reversed. But it's cyclical, and things will change again.

Time for a nice cup of tea, I think.
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  #328  
Old 18.06.2017, 19:44
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

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Read Tolkien LOTR numerous times as a teenager.. but then I do live in Hobbiton and put funny stuff in my pipe.

Yes absolutely, stretch young minds with a range of texts/books, but also allow them plenty elbow room to have an insight into writers' thinking/ideas to develop keen critical awareness.
Been reading and re-reading that since my teenage years and I shamefully admit that I even have a costume in my wardrobe that I wear to LOTR dos, and that I first met my OH at such an event, and that I can recite chunks of the poetry off the cuff.

Despite the fluffy hobbity appearance, and the movies have maybe strengthened that side, there is a lot of deep stuff in Tolkien's words and thinking, including political thoughts.

But each unto his own and others reading the words of other authors may eventually read broadly the same conclusions.
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  #329  
Old 18.06.2017, 19:49
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

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These are just a few things off the top of my head, but they all show that the UK is not an "I'm alright Jack" nation. And even internally, I'm always surprised and impressed at the abiding sense of community and generosity of people. Everywhere I've lived in the UK I've seen a strong voluntary sector. The one partial exception is London. With such a shifting population, communities are less cohesive, but they are still there, as we've seen from the events of the last week.
Yeah, compare the prevalence of charity shops in the Uk to their comparable rarity in Switzerland, an arguably much richer nation, or also the contribution of private donations to projects such as renovating a school building or a university. In the Uk the normal thing to do is to reach out to the alumnii and appeal to their generosity. Here the normal thing is to turn to the government.
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  #330  
Old 18.06.2017, 20:21
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

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You're an intelligent woman. You know that's not all that article says. It's quite balanced, all in all. You neglected to mention the bit where he actually seemed to support May's recent behaviour. Or at least offer a plausible excuse for it. He's certainly not put the boot in as he well could have. How about we all rise above the politics of it, eh?


He's right - not necessarily about compulsory purchases as that would set a worrying precedent about home ownership full stop - but the remark about hundreds of grounded travellers being found emergency accommodation at the drop of a hat. There is a housing crisis in London - has been for years. This has just brought it to a head.
Funny, I read a report the other day that said everyone who'd been made homeless in the fire had been found temporary accommodation. So who's lying?
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  #331  
Old 18.06.2017, 20:27
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

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But are we inward-looking as a nation? I don't think so. In fact, the UK is one of the few who pay the requested 0.7% of national income into overseas development aid. Last time I looked we were in the top 5 in the world in terms of support. We are also one of the very few NATO members who pay their 2% into the NATO budget. We are home to nearly 4 million EU citizens and millions of ex-Commonwealth citizens. We are a leading supporter of global environmental initiatives. The UK has a pivotal role at the UN, and in driving the need for security intelligence sharing.

These are just a few things off the top of my head, but they all show that the UK is not an "I'm alright Jack" nation. And even internally, I'm always surprised and impressed at the abiding sense of community and generosity of people. Everywhere I've lived in the UK I've seen a strong voluntary sector. The one partial exception is London. With such a shifting population, communities are less cohesive, but they are still there, as we've seen from the events of the last week.
You have just reminded me, Pachyderm, of Louis de Bernières - one of my fav quotes of his from Captain C. Mandolin when he sums up the British and their help after the earthquake in Cephallonia

"Accordingly, the British were the first to arrive, the ones to stay the longest, the ones to do the most and the last to leave. Overnight HMS Daring loaded with water, food, medicines, spare doctors and rescue equipment, sailed from Malta to be there the following morning"

Speaking of books, must get around to reading that one again.
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  #332  
Old 18.06.2017, 20:34
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

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Funny, I read a report the other day that said everyone who'd been made homeless in the fire had been found temporary accommodation. So who's lying?


Eh?


They don't need temporary, they need a new home.
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  #333  
Old 18.06.2017, 20:46
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

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Been reading and re-reading that since my teenage years and I shamefully admit that I even have a costume in my wardrobe that I wear to LOTR dos, and that I first met my OH at such an event, and that I can recite chunks of the poetry off the cuff.

Despite the fluffy hobbity appearance, and the movies have maybe strengthened that side, there is a lot of deep stuff in Tolkien's words and thinking, including political thoughts.

But each unto his own and others reading the words of other authors may eventually read broadly the same conclusions.
The trees are coming.. in the Two Towers is Shakespeare's Malcolm and the Forest of Birnam uprooted to do battle with Macbeth.

I absolutely love Tolkien. TFOTR is the one I read when I am feeling down. The movies don't do the books justice, totally agree.. even the subtle wit of Tolkien is completely missed.
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  #334  
Old 18.06.2017, 20:54
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

He swears, he rants - he hits it ... on the nail:

https://www.facebook.com/JonathanPie...1661464956744/
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  #335  
Old 18.06.2017, 21:04
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

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I never understand how entire nations can be accused of something -- or praised for something.
I agree, and what I wrote above wasn't meant as a blanket condemnation of the UK.

The "I'm alright Jack" problem isn't just limited to the UK.

It's every individual or corporation (or government) which chooses to do at most the least required by the law, often in full knowledge that it isn't the right thing to do, and that harm will come to others by choosing that course. That with enough skill and cunning you can manipulate the loopholes and "game" the system and make it look like it's someone else's fault when things go wrong is something that we've all mostly figured out by the time we reach the 2nd or 3rd grade - that still doesn't make it the right thing to do.
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  #336  
Old 18.06.2017, 21:11
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

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Eh?


They don't need temporary, they need a new home.
Unsurprisingly the ones offered temporary accommodation in high rises are somewhat reticent...
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  #337  
Old 18.06.2017, 21:29
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

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Eh?


They don't need temporary, they need a new home.
So did many people who suffered during the Buncefield explosion back in 2005.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buncefield_fire

2,000 affected by that disaster.

As well as having to spend several months in hotels and temp accommodation most had to wait years to be compensated as well.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...n-6101856.html

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-b...herts-34919922

Just in case you've forgotten how bad it really was.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FlJQWewjTc

I used to live in that area and husband's workplace was on that site. Thankfully we'd sold up and moved north for his new job before the explosion happened.

Why does anyone expect things to be different now? It still takes time to sort things out for the longer term.
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  #338  
Old 18.06.2017, 21:37
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

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Despite the fluffy hobbity appearance, and the movies have maybe strengthened that side, there is a lot of deep stuff in Tolkien's words and thinking, including political thoughts.

But each unto his own and others reading the words of other authors may eventually read broadly the same conclusions.
But if you look at the works of The Inklings as a whole, baring in mind how they critiqued each other's work at fledgling stages, they managed to cover so many political, social and theological issues.
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  #339  
Old 18.06.2017, 21:41
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

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Corbyn rabbiting on about confiscating other people's properties again.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-40319515

Funny how he's fixated on the luxury ones. What about all the lower end empty housing as well which would probably be more suitable? Won't mention those because it would upset his supporters I guess.

He really doesn't have a clue re compulsory purchase. Almost certain to be challenged in various courtrooms so wouldn't speed up anything and again you can get a lot more for your money compensating for several lower end properties than one luxury flat.
He is quite right to suggest that local vacant properties should be used by whatever means is possible, either on a temporary or permanent basis. I think this is borne out of the frustration that people have not been rehoused after several days.

Kensington and Chelsea has more vacant property than any other local authority in London

http://metro.co.uk/2017/05/11/map-re...ondon-6630121/


I saw some local residents on TV suggesting that the final death toll will be 160. I'm sure that the authorities should be able to give a figure close to the final one
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  #340  
Old 18.06.2017, 22:00
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

Theft of property by the state is still theft.
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