Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Off-Topic > Off-Topic > International affairs/politics  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #441  
Old 24.06.2017, 15:13
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Zurich
Posts: 5,650
Groaned at 405 Times in 223 Posts
Thanked 6,465 Times in 2,971 Posts
ZuriRollt has a reputation beyond reputeZuriRollt has a reputation beyond reputeZuriRollt has a reputation beyond reputeZuriRollt has a reputation beyond reputeZuriRollt has a reputation beyond reputeZuriRollt has a reputation beyond repute
Re: London Tower Block Fire

Quote:
View Post


18 months ago
, I registered my tumble dryer in the UK for the Hotpoint modification. It was bought new, was only used for 6mths, but the next time I'm back in the UK, the damned thing is going to the tip and this is why. The extract below, is from an email I received from them on 11 May this year...

[/FONT][/COLOR]



Blueangel,

I didn't read any of this thread, as all the details of what's happened in the U.K.
are only not-bearable enough based on media coverage (yes, interpret this confussion).

Find it interesting that you're blaming it on the lack of response / regulation from the fridge manufacturer, and fully agree that it was a chain of many such lack of regulations that led to this incompetence and subsequence and loss of lives.

When Efers complain about regulations here in Switzerland, it might be worth considering the outside World perspective.
Reply With Quote
  #442  
Old 24.06.2017, 15:54
JagWaugh's Avatar
RIP
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Eglisau
Posts: 7,248
Groaned at 46 Times in 45 Posts
Thanked 14,131 Times in 5,506 Posts
JagWaugh has a reputation beyond reputeJagWaugh has a reputation beyond reputeJagWaugh has a reputation beyond reputeJagWaugh has a reputation beyond reputeJagWaugh has a reputation beyond reputeJagWaugh has a reputation beyond repute
Re: London Tower Block Fire

Quote:
View Post
I would also add that 'elf and safety PAT testers should go in and check all terrorist appliances
Given how extensive the checks are in the UK there will probably be calls for them to start testing appliances too.

Just recording the serial numbers would add significantly to the cost or the test. Where do you stop: major appliances, kettles, lamps, wall warts?
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank JagWaugh for this useful post:
  #443  
Old 24.06.2017, 16:14
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: London Tower Block Fire

Quote:
View Post
Given how extensive the checks are in the UK there will probably be calls for them to start testing appliances too.

Just recording the serial numbers would add significantly to the cost or the test. Where do you stop: major appliances, kettles, lamps, wall warts?
There seemed to be reports of Grenfell residents experiencing regular power surges within the building which, at the time, probably caused minor inconvenience with blown fuses or computers having a blip, for example.

Taking that scenario, the authorities should be also checking the power supply and transformers (no idea if this is the right eleccy thingy but you know what I mean ) in other tower blocks for faults and reliability. Might be a starting place to protect any potentially dodgy appliances from going rogue.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank for this useful post:
  #444  
Old 24.06.2017, 16:16
JagWaugh's Avatar
RIP
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Eglisau
Posts: 7,248
Groaned at 46 Times in 45 Posts
Thanked 14,131 Times in 5,506 Posts
JagWaugh has a reputation beyond reputeJagWaugh has a reputation beyond reputeJagWaugh has a reputation beyond reputeJagWaugh has a reputation beyond reputeJagWaugh has a reputation beyond reputeJagWaugh has a reputation beyond repute
Re: London Tower Block Fire

Quote:
Hotpoint also had a fire issue with their tumble dryers a couple of years ago and had to recall several models and retrofit safety parts for others. Their organisation was shambolic, too. It took them almost 2 years to send an engineer out to my mum's machine.
The media is carrying stories about how Hotpoint is urging customers to check their appliances as one was the cause of the Grenfell fire. According to the Guardian

“Words cannot express our sorrow at this terrible tragedy,” the spokesman said. “We offer our most profound condolences to the victims, those who have lost loved ones, homes, and possessions, and to their friends and families. Our thoughts and prayers are with all those involved, including the emergency services who risked their lives to extinguish the blaze and rescue those in the building.
“We are working with the authorities to obtain access to the appliance so that we can assist with the ongoing investigations. Under these circumstances, we are unable to speculate on further details at this time. We are addressing this as a matter of utmost urgency and assisting the authorities in any way we can. We will provide additional updates as our investigations progress.”

Here is the Hotpoint website: http://www.hotpoint.co.uk/

Sure, the warning triangles are there, spread amongst the advertising.

If it really were all that urgent, then why not show any visitor a popup, with pictures? "Do you own either of these appliances?"

But then again, if it takes them 2 years to send out a tech to fix a known problem even when the customer checks their site and fills their info in, then
I guess consumer safety isn't as much of a priority as they'd like us to think.
__________________
If everyone you know agrees with you consistently, they are either not listening, or not capable of critical thought.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank JagWaugh for this useful post:
  #445  
Old 24.06.2017, 16:18
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 219
Groaned at 81 Times in 40 Posts
Thanked 102 Times in 70 Posts
koblenz is considered unworthykoblenz is considered unworthykoblenz is considered unworthykoblenz is considered unworthy
Re: London Tower Block Fire

Quote:
View Post
sure, the warning triangles are there, spread amongst Jamie Oliver
ftfy
Reply With Quote
  #446  
Old 24.06.2017, 16:22
JagWaugh's Avatar
RIP
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Eglisau
Posts: 7,248
Groaned at 46 Times in 45 Posts
Thanked 14,131 Times in 5,506 Posts
JagWaugh has a reputation beyond reputeJagWaugh has a reputation beyond reputeJagWaugh has a reputation beyond reputeJagWaugh has a reputation beyond reputeJagWaugh has a reputation beyond reputeJagWaugh has a reputation beyond repute
Re: London Tower Block Fire

Quote:
View Post
ftfy
If it turns out that Hotpoint were negligent, then I'm guessing that Jamie's face won't be appearing on that site much longer.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank JagWaugh for this useful post:
  #447  
Old 24.06.2017, 17:44
xynth's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Zurich
Posts: 823
Groaned at 35 Times in 22 Posts
Thanked 1,956 Times in 565 Posts
xynth has a reputation beyond reputexynth has a reputation beyond reputexynth has a reputation beyond reputexynth has a reputation beyond reputexynth has a reputation beyond reputexynth has a reputation beyond repute
Re: London Tower Block Fire

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-br...-idUSKBN19F05M

I like how every link in the supply chain washes their hands with "We were not in a position to advise/consider the fire risk of the building" even though they pretty much all knew exactly what building is going to be covered with the panels. Alright, even if there is no law that mandates any of those companies to raise flags about fire risks, the very basic human decency would have meant at least someone asking: "Woah, woah, woah! That building is 60 meters tall and they are buying panels for which we explicitly warn that they are unsuitable for buildings more than 10 meters tall!".

People were outraged that the evil bankers caused the 2007 crash, but at least nobody died there (well, not directly). This is a very clear trail of decisions that directly caused the death of 79 people. This is not a case of negligence, in that someone didn't do their due diligence, this is people being aware that they are turning a building into a furnace and going ahead anyway.
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank xynth for this useful post:
  #448  
Old 24.06.2017, 19:16
Deep Purple's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: England
Posts: 5,264
Groaned at 15 Times in 14 Posts
Thanked 5,273 Times in 2,563 Posts
Deep Purple has a reputation beyond reputeDeep Purple has a reputation beyond reputeDeep Purple has a reputation beyond reputeDeep Purple has a reputation beyond reputeDeep Purple has a reputation beyond reputeDeep Purple has a reputation beyond repute
Re: London Tower Block Fire

Quote:
View Post
Given how extensive the checks are in the UK there will probably be calls for them to start testing appliances too.

Just recording the serial numbers would add significantly to the cost or the test. Where do you stop: major appliances, kettles, lamps, wall warts?
PAT testing every appliance may have shown a problem but wouldn't be much use in general terms. It is only an indication on that day. Residents are likely to be getting further appliances on a regular basis.

What if an appliance fails the test? Who is going to pay for repair or disposal and replacement?
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Deep Purple for this useful post:
  #449  
Old 24.06.2017, 19:24
JagWaugh's Avatar
RIP
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Eglisau
Posts: 7,248
Groaned at 46 Times in 45 Posts
Thanked 14,131 Times in 5,506 Posts
JagWaugh has a reputation beyond reputeJagWaugh has a reputation beyond reputeJagWaugh has a reputation beyond reputeJagWaugh has a reputation beyond reputeJagWaugh has a reputation beyond reputeJagWaugh has a reputation beyond repute
Re: London Tower Block Fire

Quote:
View Post
PAT testing every appliance may have shown a problem but wouldn't be much use in general terms. It is only an indication on that day. Residents are likely to be getting further appliances on a regular basis.

What if an appliance fails the test? Who is going to pay for repair or disposal and replacement?
What would I do, or what would a govt. inspector do?

I would explain that the appliance was dangerous, and that that was why I have disconnected the appliance and removed the power cord so that they cannot plug it back in once I'd left.

Mass testing would at least provide data about how good the standards are. As good as a standard is, it is a point in time test on a new device. Even the ones that simulate misuse don't really simulate real world conditions after a long service period.

The reason you don't see many junk cars here is that the MFK filters them out before they get close enough to being downright dangerous.
__________________
If everyone you know agrees with you consistently, they are either not listening, or not capable of critical thought.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank JagWaugh for this useful post:
  #450  
Old 24.06.2017, 19:43
Deep Purple's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: England
Posts: 5,264
Groaned at 15 Times in 14 Posts
Thanked 5,273 Times in 2,563 Posts
Deep Purple has a reputation beyond reputeDeep Purple has a reputation beyond reputeDeep Purple has a reputation beyond reputeDeep Purple has a reputation beyond reputeDeep Purple has a reputation beyond reputeDeep Purple has a reputation beyond repute
Re: London Tower Block Fire

Quote:
View Post
What would I do, or what would a govt. inspector do?

I would explain that the appliance was dangerous, and that that was why I have disconnected the appliance and removed the power cord so that they cannot plug it back in once I'd left.

Mass testing would at least provide data about how good the standards are. As good as a standard is, it is a point in time test on a new device. Even the ones that simulate misuse don't really simulate real world conditions after a long service period.

The reason you don't see many junk cars here is that the MFK filters them out before they get close enough to being downright dangerous.
Great in theory but what if it was the fridge freezer or cooker of a vulnerable adult, and it only had a potentially minor fault?
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Deep Purple for this useful post:
  #451  
Old 24.06.2017, 19:51
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Zurich
Posts: 5,650
Groaned at 405 Times in 223 Posts
Thanked 6,465 Times in 2,971 Posts
ZuriRollt has a reputation beyond reputeZuriRollt has a reputation beyond reputeZuriRollt has a reputation beyond reputeZuriRollt has a reputation beyond reputeZuriRollt has a reputation beyond reputeZuriRollt has a reputation beyond repute
Re: London Tower Block Fire

Quote:
View Post
Great in theory but what if it was the fridge freezer or cooker of a vulnerable adult, and it only had a potentially minor fault?
Switzerland does tend to think of these things in advance, making mass evacuations of existing housing schemes not an issue (yet).
Reply With Quote
  #452  
Old 24.06.2017, 19:54
JagWaugh's Avatar
RIP
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Eglisau
Posts: 7,248
Groaned at 46 Times in 45 Posts
Thanked 14,131 Times in 5,506 Posts
JagWaugh has a reputation beyond reputeJagWaugh has a reputation beyond reputeJagWaugh has a reputation beyond reputeJagWaugh has a reputation beyond reputeJagWaugh has a reputation beyond reputeJagWaugh has a reputation beyond repute
Re: London Tower Block Fire

Quote:
View Post
Great in theory but what if it was the fridge freezer or cooker of a vulnerable adult, and it only had a potentially minor fault?
Edge case: I would fix it.

The loss of life in the tower was preventable:

A freezer not catching fire would have prevented it.
Installing sprinklers would have prevented it.
Not having such flammable materials in the cladding would have prevented it.
A proper installation would have prevented it.
An inspection of the renovations should have prevented it.

Those things all cost money. Not that I want to say that money is the root of all evil, but an endless spiral of naive belief that everything will get better if we just spend less money is dangerous - that is what caused the deaths in that fire.
__________________
If everyone you know agrees with you consistently, they are either not listening, or not capable of critical thought.
Reply With Quote
The following 8 users would like to thank JagWaugh for this useful post:
  #453  
Old 25.06.2017, 01:53
MsWorWoo's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Winti
Posts: 1,933
Groaned at 57 Times in 37 Posts
Thanked 3,161 Times in 1,187 Posts
MsWorWoo has a reputation beyond reputeMsWorWoo has a reputation beyond reputeMsWorWoo has a reputation beyond reputeMsWorWoo has a reputation beyond reputeMsWorWoo has a reputation beyond reputeMsWorWoo has a reputation beyond repute
Re: London Tower Block Fire

Quote:
View Post
Given how extensive the checks are in the UK there will probably be calls for them to start testing appliances too.

Just recording the serial numbers would add significantly to the cost or the test. Where do you stop: major appliances, kettles, lamps, wall warts?
I let my house in the UK as furnished. I have to have PAT testing of evrything I provide every two years( and always add it to my gas testing so I get it done every year) I don't think my tenants electrics are included.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank MsWorWoo for this useful post:
  #454  
Old 25.06.2017, 08:58
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: CH
Posts: 10,970
Groaned at 2,032 Times in 1,120 Posts
Thanked 5,139 Times in 3,246 Posts
omtatsat omtatsat omtatsat omtatsat omtatsat
Re: London Tower Block Fire

Get May out! In UK they spend 370 million pounds to renovate the Buckingham Palace . And 5 million for the survivors of the fire.
Reply With Quote
  #455  
Old 25.06.2017, 09:07
JagWaugh's Avatar
RIP
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Eglisau
Posts: 7,248
Groaned at 46 Times in 45 Posts
Thanked 14,131 Times in 5,506 Posts
JagWaugh has a reputation beyond reputeJagWaugh has a reputation beyond reputeJagWaugh has a reputation beyond reputeJagWaugh has a reputation beyond reputeJagWaugh has a reputation beyond reputeJagWaugh has a reputation beyond repute
Re: London Tower Block Fire

Quote:
View Post
I let my house in the UK as furnished. I have to have PAT testing of evrything I provide every two years( and always add it to my gas testing so I get it done every year) I don't think my tenants electrics are included.
Just out of interest, what do the two tests cost?
Reply With Quote
  #456  
Old 25.06.2017, 09:38
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: London Tower Block Fire

Quote:
View Post
Get May out! In UK they spend 370 million pounds to renovate the Buckingham Palace . And 5 million for the survivors of the fire.
This whole sorry affair is going to cost them millions more than just the survivors' current payout. The immediate rehousing of 4000 tenants, the testing of the current safety standards of all the affected accommodation, including outside materials as well as the sprinkler systems and general fire-worthiness. Then there will be all the retro-fitting of whatever they have to install, change, make good.

Although presumably there will be some cash raised from litigation which hits any of the companies involved who cut corners in the first place.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank for this useful post:
  #457  
Old 25.06.2017, 11:03
Deep Purple's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: England
Posts: 5,264
Groaned at 15 Times in 14 Posts
Thanked 5,273 Times in 2,563 Posts
Deep Purple has a reputation beyond reputeDeep Purple has a reputation beyond reputeDeep Purple has a reputation beyond reputeDeep Purple has a reputation beyond reputeDeep Purple has a reputation beyond reputeDeep Purple has a reputation beyond repute
Re: London Tower Block Fire

Quote:
This whole sorry affair is going to cost them millions more than just the survivors' current payout. The immediate rehousing of 4000 tenants, the testing of the current safety standards of all the affected accommodation, including outside materials as well as the sprinkler systems and general fire-worthiness. Then there will be all the retro-fitting of whatever they have to install, change, make good.

Although presumably there will be some cash raised from litigation which hits any of the companies involved who cut corners in the first place.
The numbers to be rehoused could easily run into tens of thousands if all the affected tower blocks are emptied.

At present, there is no evidence that the contractors cut corners. It may be that the regulations were not sufficient
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Deep Purple for this useful post:
  #458  
Old 25.06.2017, 11:10
JagWaugh's Avatar
RIP
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Eglisau
Posts: 7,248
Groaned at 46 Times in 45 Posts
Thanked 14,131 Times in 5,506 Posts
JagWaugh has a reputation beyond reputeJagWaugh has a reputation beyond reputeJagWaugh has a reputation beyond reputeJagWaugh has a reputation beyond reputeJagWaugh has a reputation beyond reputeJagWaugh has a reputation beyond repute
Re: London Tower Block Fire

Quote:
View Post
At present, there is no evidence that the contractors cut corners. It may be that the regulations were not sufficient
My gut instinct tells me that it is a combination of the two.

Almost every pic I've seen showing them removing cladding reveals that the panels are fixed to a wood batten. My medulla tells my upper brain to wonder what on earth wood is doing on the outside of a high rise.

(Nothing against wood, it's a great material for constructing houses with... as long as the stream from a regular garden hose can reach it...)
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank JagWaugh for this useful post:
  #459  
Old 25.06.2017, 13:04
Blueangel's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Küsnacht, Switzerland
Posts: 4,263
Groaned at 129 Times in 113 Posts
Thanked 11,415 Times in 4,982 Posts
Blueangel has a reputation beyond reputeBlueangel has a reputation beyond reputeBlueangel has a reputation beyond reputeBlueangel has a reputation beyond reputeBlueangel has a reputation beyond reputeBlueangel has a reputation beyond repute
Re: London Tower Block Fire

Quote:
View Post
Almost every pic I've seen showing them removing cladding reveals that the panels are fixed to a wood batten. My medulla tells my upper brain to wonder what on earth wood is doing on the outside of a high rise.
Which brings me back to... https://www.englishforum.ch/internat...ml#post2801395
In that instance, the cladding was fire retardent, and the problem that the fire fighters had was that the fire was inside the walls.
Quote:
After the fire broke out around 4am on Monday morning, it spread from a balcony to the roof and then down inside the walls.
http://www.manchestereveningnews.co....-wigan-9461570
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Blueangel for this useful post:
  #460  
Old 25.06.2017, 13:28
JagWaugh's Avatar
RIP
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Eglisau
Posts: 7,248
Groaned at 46 Times in 45 Posts
Thanked 14,131 Times in 5,506 Posts
JagWaugh has a reputation beyond reputeJagWaugh has a reputation beyond reputeJagWaugh has a reputation beyond reputeJagWaugh has a reputation beyond reputeJagWaugh has a reputation beyond reputeJagWaugh has a reputation beyond repute
Re: London Tower Block Fire

Quote:
View Post
...
In that instance, the cladding was fire retardent, and the problem that the fire fighters had was that the fire was inside the walls.
...
A building is just a machine for living in. Most engineers strive for safety margins, "intrinsically safe", in the sense that a single point of failure will remain localized to a component or enclosure of components, and a "Fail Safe" mode where the whole machine fails to work in the event of a fault, but doesn't self destruct. The next level of defense is redundancy - airliners have 3 separate hydraulic systems to operate the control surfaces, (most) Oil tankers have double hulls.

Buildings are very complex machines, although we don't normally think of them as such. In the case of this fire:

Safety margins are fire breaks in the structure, and low flammable materials.
Intrinsically safe would be safety margins and sprinklers.
Fail safe would have been fire breaks in the cladding at every floor or sprinklers on the outside.
Redundancy is hard with a building's safety system... you can't switch to a second exterior if the first one catches fire, but functioning dry risers might be thought of as a form of redundancy (adding water to a flammable material reduces it's flammability).

And... once the fire started it escalated far too fast... the building might have been a writeoff after all, but the rate at which each aspect contributed to the conflagration, rather than slowing it down is the root of the problem. A slow progressive failure would have saved lives by giving people time to react.
__________________
If everyone you know agrees with you consistently, they are either not listening, or not capable of critical thought.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank JagWaugh for this useful post:
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Fire safety regulations & law in apartment block? bmflex Housing in general 26 01.04.2019 20:58
Protesters block London City airport Dack Rambo International affairs/politics 33 07.09.2016 18:03
Uetliberg tower turnstile SouthMtn Travel/day trips/free time 24 11.04.2016 01:12
Help needed re; Flights: Block booking to London (50-80) Hausamsee Transportation/driving 19 02.10.2009 16:03


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 08:43.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0