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  #461  
Old 25.06.2017, 13:33
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

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Blueangel,

I didn't read any of this thread, as all the details of what's happened in the U.K.
are only not-bearable enough based on media coverage (yes, interpret this confussion).

Find it interesting that you're blaming it on the lack of response / regulation from the fridge manufacturer, and fully agree that it was a chain of many such lack of regulations that led to this incompetence and subsequence and loss of lives.

When Efers complain about regulations here in Switzerland, it might be worth considering the outside World perspective.
ZuriRollt, I'm pedantic about keeping manufacturers instruction manuals, safety swing tags, etc. The all go into my filing cabinet.

I find it ironic / disturbing that the manufacturer of a range of products that has recently been blamed by the fire service for a number of house fires, is now also being implicated in this disaster. The way they have behaved in response to the tumble dryer issues has been nothing short of despicable. The first batch of emails from them were to advise that customers can either 'wait a very long time for the modification to be made to their machine' or 'pay a few hundred quid to buy a more recent model from them'.

Now...if you upgrade to a newer machine, you could have the replacement within a few weeks, but the modification, which takes 30-60 minutes to complete, would take over a year. No matter how they dress this up, that's a mercinary response to an emergency situation. There should have been a full product recall and cash compensation.

I had two of their machines, one in Datchet and one in Wigan. So they've had about £700 of my money, and I'm a long way past dancing to their tune. It goes to the tip and I'll never buy any of their products again. What makes it worse is, I viewed an apartment in Zurich Enge about 16mths ago, and one of the things that put me off applying was that they had 7 Hotpoint / Whirlpool dryers in the keller.

This is worth reading for anyone interested. And did you know, Whirlpool make the Ikea own brand appliances and some Proline appliances? This is the World's biggest manufacturer of domestic appliances. They can easily absorb the cost of a product recall and purchase price compensation, but refuse to.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whirlp...ush_tower_fire
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  #462  
Old 25.06.2017, 13:59
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

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Buildings are very complex machines, although we don't normally think of them as such. In the case of this fire:
Absolutely agree. The fire I evacuated was caused by new bitumen being laid on a bakery roof during work production time. Some complete numpty neglected to mention that the product cooling system drew cooler air from ventilation shafts in the roof, and that these were lined with wooden batoning. So, besides the wonderful aroma of bitumen flooding into the production area, we very soon had a fire lapping across the ceiling.

What I'm more familiar with these days, is my brother-outlaws place in Evia, an island cursed by bush fires in Summer. He's planted several sections of firebreaks on the plot, including large borders of hottentots, agave and aloe.
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  #463  
Old 25.06.2017, 15:34
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

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Just out of interest, what do the two tests cost?
Oh, I don't know of hand, around £70-100 I think...
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  #464  
Old 25.06.2017, 15:47
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

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Oh, I don't know off hand, around £70-100 I think...
So... end cost to you is probably about 50% of the actual cost (by the time you include the training, the kit, the kit and training to test the kit, and the back office, and the van to transport the tester and the kit, and the maintenance and financing on the van, and the employment and training costs of the tester etc., etc.).

Not singling you out as being cheap, not by any means. The point is... this stuff costs money.

The UK is (by some accounts) the 5th largest economy in the world. People shouldn't die for the sake of money at the top of the pile. They shouldn't die at the bottom of the pile either, but that's a different mechanism.
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Old 25.06.2017, 17:58
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

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So... end cost to you is probably about 50% of the actual cost (by the time you include the training, the kit, the kit and training to test the kit, and the back office, and the van to transport the tester and the kit, and the maintenance and financing on the van, and the employment and training costs of the tester etc., etc.).

Not singling you out as being cheap, not by any means. The point is... this stuff costs money.

The UK is (by some accounts) the 5th largest economy in the world. People shouldn't die for the sake of money at the top of the pile. They shouldn't die at the bottom of the pile either, but that's a different mechanism.
Maybe it's more, I treat it like a car MOT, I'm sure costs of training etc are more, but them I also assume that that is all sorted out when they price.
Yes, these tests cost mosey, but i'd rather that than cost lives. (Or, at least having my house burn down but then the insurence refusing to pay out because of it)
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  #466  
Old 26.06.2017, 12:24
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

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I have house insurance. I have savings to cover unexpected circumstances. I do my utmost to look after myself my dependents, without being a burden on anyone else. This is called taking responsibility for yourself.
Loz, this is a game changer...
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The Association of British Insurers (ABI) said in a statement on Sunday it had been calling on the government to review building fire-safety regulations since 2009 and warned in May that combustible external cladding on high rises could cause fire to spread.
The Financial Times first reported ABI's warning.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-b...-idUSKBN19G0X6

For the ABI to have taken this action, the knock on effect would likely be 1) refusing insurance 2) refusing insurance claims.

It really makes me wonder if any of the people in the 60 tower blocks so far found to have a 100% fire safety failure, are also finding that their contents insurance is invalid through no fault of their own.

When we lived between Wraysbury and Datchet, we were refused contents insurance by the majority of lenders because it was a known flood risk area. We made the choice to live there because it was 10mins from our workplaces at Heathrow. We found an insurer and paid over the odds for insurance. We weighed up the risks and took our chances.

When you put too much faith in insurance and insurers, you might as well put your salary on the next horse race this afternoon, because insurance is nothing more than glorified betting.
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  #467  
Old 26.06.2017, 17:31
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

Just because we've discussed it before, this clip from 'This Morning' shows how the differences between US and UK manufactured fridge freezers.

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  #468  
Old 26.06.2017, 18:28
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

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Loz, this is a game changer...


https://www.reuters.com/article/us-b...-idUSKBN19G0X6

For the ABI to have taken this action, the knock on effect would likely be 1) refusing insurance 2) refusing insurance claims.

It really makes me wonder if any of the people in the 60 tower blocks so far found to have a 100% fire safety failure, are also finding that their contents insurance is invalid through no fault of their own.
I would say that under "ordinary" circumstances (i.e. did not make international headlines) you'd be right. I "bet" that those with up to date insurances do get payouts however, albeit ones that come with NDAs. I'd hope so, anyway, or the world is indeed populated with more shysters than we need.
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  #469  
Old 27.06.2017, 11:28
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

The Scottish angle, why no Scottish blocks have failed. A good bit of background by the BBC.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-40406057

It does beg the question as to why Westminster didn't follow suit.
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  #470  
Old 27.06.2017, 21:12
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

And now Germany is also checking and evacuating tenants.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-40420954
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Old 28.06.2017, 00:33
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

David Lammy, MP for Tottenham believes that the number of dead is much higher that the official figure of 79. That is very likely. I heard a local resident on TV suggesting a figure of 160.

I understand that the official figure can only be given once all the formal identification procedures have been completed, and this may take weeks, or even months.

I'm sure that it would be possible to give a reasonably accurate figure for those 'missing, presumed dead'. This could be compiled from official residency lists, National Insurance and benefit records, survivors details, phone usage records at the time of the fire, persons missing from employment or schools etc. and probably other sources.

The authorities must have the majority of this information. I can't see why this isn't released publicly.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7809911.html
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  #472  
Old 28.06.2017, 09:27
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

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I'm sure that it would be possible to give a reasonably accurate figure for those 'missing, presumed dead'. This could be compiled from official residency lists, National Insurance and benefit records, survivors details, phone usage records at the time of the fire, persons missing from employment or schools etc. and probably other sources.

The authorities must have the majority of this information. I can't see why this isn't released publicly.
If illegal immigrants are living in illegally sublet council flats then the authorities will have nothing.

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And now Germany is also checking and evacuating tenants.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-40420954
I thought Germany was perfect and something like this could never happen there
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  #473  
Old 28.06.2017, 09:31
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

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I thought Germany was perfect and something like this could never happen there
Loz, you're not keeping up. Germany is nearly perfect. Free tapwater and parking, combined with used cars in near perfect condition for less than a tire costs here in Switzerland are the proof of that.
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  #474  
Old 28.06.2017, 19:05
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

The Police are saying that they may not have all the details of the dead this year

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40434741
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  #475  
Old 28.06.2017, 21:35
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

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The Police are saying that they may not have all the details of the dead this year

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40434741
Someone in the comment-section of that independent-article pointed it out:

If this was a terrorist-attack, the government would have no problem coming up with a number. A pretty high number, most likely.
They wouldn't drag their feet until the media-circus has moved on twice or trice already.

Bigotry like that makes me nauseous.
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Old 28.06.2017, 21:56
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

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Someone in the comment-section of that independent-article pointed it out:

If this was a terrorist-attack, the government would have no problem coming up with a number. A pretty high number, most likely.
They wouldn't drag their feet until the media-circus has moved on twice or trice already.

Bigotry like that makes me nauseous.
It's one thing to admit that you've been unable to protect a certain number of people from a terrorist attack. It's a different matter to admit that you can't protect them from the council, government inspectors, builders and entrepreneurs. Not to mention admitting that you don't know the exact toll because there was subletting going on.

To admit that... shamboliciousness... would be tantamount to admitting that leadership and responsibility has been missing for so long that the words have completely lost their meaning, which would make uplifting speeches about the way forward to a bright and shining future...

oh never mind... I just caught myself trying to make it seem almost funny.
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Old 28.06.2017, 22:10
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

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Someone in the comment-section of that independent-article pointed it out:

If this was a terrorist-attack, the government would have no problem coming up with a number. A pretty high number, most likely.
They wouldn't drag their feet until the media-circus has moved on twice or trice already.

Bigotry like that makes me nauseous.
Sounds more like an idiot. Should a terrorist attack result in the same thing I defy anyone to identify bodies any quicker since we've no idea how many people were in the building, whether there were any visitors, etc. We may eventually end up with a number, but as for identifying them all - I think it will be a miracle if they do.

And where does bigotry come into this?

"Bigotry: Intolerance towards those who hold different opinions from oneself."

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/bigotry
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  #478  
Old 28.06.2017, 22:16
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

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Sounds more like an idiot. Should a terrorist attack result in the same thing I defy anyone to identify bodies any quicker since we've no idea how many people were in the building, whether there were any visitors, etc. We may eventually end up with a number, but as for identifying them all - I think it will be a miracle if they do.

And where does bigotry come into this?

"Bigotry: Intolerance towards those who hold different opinions from oneself."

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/bigotry

They wouldn't identify the bodies quicker - but they'd come up with some number anyway.

As for the bigotry - it wasn't quite the correct word.
Maybe hypocrisy?
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Old 28.06.2017, 22:27
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

They already have - 80. They said that some time ago and reiterated it in the article.

"What I can say is that we believe that around 80 people are either dead or sadly missing and I must presume that they are dead," the officer said.

She added: "I don't want there to be any hidden victims. We want to understand the true human cost of this tragedy."

The previously given death toll from the fire was 79."

"Police said "it would have been impossible for anyone to produce a list before that showed exactly who was in Grenfell Tower that night - that includes those people living there but also those visiting".

"What I can tell you is there are 129 flats inside Grenfell Tower. We, the police, have spoken to at least one occupant of 106 of those 129 flats," Det Supt McCormack said.

"These people have been able to tell us not just who lived in those flats, but importantly who was in those flats on the night."

The officer said 18 people connected to those 106 flats are dead or missing presumed dead but "it is a terrible reality that there are 23 flats where despite huge investigative efforts, we have been unable to trace anyone alive who lived there.

"At this stage, we must presume, that no-one in those 23 flats survived, that includes anyone who lived there or was visiting them."

Det Supt McCormack said officers were having to prepare some families for the reality that their relatives' remains may never be recovered."
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Old 28.06.2017, 22:42
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

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They wouldn't identify the bodies quicker - but they'd come up with some number anyway.

As for the bigotry - it wasn't quite the correct word.
Maybe hypocrisy?
Sorry but I don't understand.
It's far easier to identify victims when you have physical DNA, no matter how small, combined with circumstantial evidence and other family members to match the DNA to. In this case, that may not be possible for all the victims. I'm not sure if it's still the same, but it used to be the case that someone had to be missing for seven years to be legally presumed dead. I believe the end of the year is optimistic considering the amount of forensic process involved.

All of this is horribly sad, heart-breaking and infuriating for all concerned, but I would prefer procedures to be completed correctly to minimise any chance of error.
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