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  #501  
Old 04.07.2017, 00:12
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

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Just been watching a video about New Orleans- and how the 'poor' who lost their homes were sent to cheaper areas further away- and how it was a fabulous opportunity to gentrify the area and make megga bucks on property...
The city's still below sea level, and water doesn't care if the rich live there now. I have a hard time believing they built strong enough levees, or enough levees to begin with, to withstand the water when it will come.
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  #502  
Old 04.07.2017, 08:19
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

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I wasn't aware of any others which had incinerated its residents?
Subletters are not victims. They are the people who are covering up the number of dead. Not the government, not the police. Hope this helps.
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  #503  
Old 04.07.2017, 08:22
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

Scores dead and David Lammy is concerned that the judge leading the inquiry isn't black or a woman.

Grenfell row as Labour MP suggests 'white, upper-middle class man' should not have been hired to lead inquiry
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  #504  
Old 04.07.2017, 08:23
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

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Forgive me for being cynical. The press and the Govt. have already determined who the bad guy is. One is enough. The thing that's most important now is to be seen to be doing something about it to give the viewers/voters the impression that something is being done.

Besides... certification labs are about quality assurance. Have you looked at the warrington homepage? What a bunch of marketing blabla!

"By combining cutting-edge science and technology, intelligent thinking and experience, we work in partnership with you to identify opportunities and find solutions to make you more competitive."

Not just thinking... intelligent thinking.

Not even a hint of "We help you be sure that your products won't kill people."
Wrong link on my part then. I was looking for the Fire Research Station that used to be based in Warrington which was an independent organisation that did nothing but test materials in the UK and elsewhere in Europe. Seems that has been closed so now all we have is private companies doing the work. There used to be two research stations, one in Warrington and the other down in the south somewhere. Any company dealing with fire resistant materials would work closely with these to make sure their products met whatever the standard was for the market they were aiming at. If it was certified by the station then you knew the product was good.
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  #505  
Old 04.07.2017, 08:50
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

The poduct might have been acceptable, but it was probably installed in a poor manner, with no fire breaks on the exterior walls around each apartment.

With longer ladders the fire service could have directed more water onto the outside of the building in a better manner. There are ladders for sale that would reach the top of Grenfell building, but the ones in service only reach halfway.

One victim interviewed on TV, and who had survived the fire for 6 hours, had experienced smoke coming into his apartment, through the walls, just beneath the windows. No product fire testing will avoid bad design or wrong installation.
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  #506  
Old 04.07.2017, 11:30
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

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The city's still below sea level, and water doesn't care if the rich live there now. I have a hard time believing they built strong enough levees, or enough levees to begin with, to withstand the water when it will come.
Yeah, and you can only gentrify a place if people actually want to live there and are prepared to fork out cash for it. Overall, New Orleans is a shrinking city. If they didn't have the tourism, there wouldn't be very much left at all. And tourists generally like to see the nice bits. If you think fixing up decrepit areas so tourists have some extra stuf to do and see and can sit down and listen to fake jazz is actually a form of gentrification, so be it. The alternative is to let it rot until it's beyond salvage. That doesn't benefit anyone.

As for the levees, apparently it wasn't the Mississippi levees that broke but those on the drainage canals coming in from Lake Ponchartrain. Thus being below sea level wasn't really the problem but being below lake level was.
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  #507  
Old 04.07.2017, 11:40
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

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Subletters are not victims. They are the people who are covering up the number of dead. Not the government, not the police. Hope this helps.
No, it doesn't really help. Your comment isn't particularly relevant (or you missed the point). The point is, in this case, the people subletting out their flats won't be prosecuted for divulging the identities of their tenants who may or may not have perished in the fire.

The fact that the practice of subletting might be going on elsewhere around the UK has no bearing on this particular situation and presumably the law, as it stands will apply to those people.
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  #508  
Old 04.07.2017, 11:52
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

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The city's still below sea level, and water doesn't care if the rich live there now. I have a hard time believing they built strong enough levees, or enough levees to begin with, to withstand the water when it will come.
City will probably be alright, it's Essex, Kent, etc, that'll be hit as the Thames Barrier is designed to stop the water getting as far as London.
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  #509  
Old 04.07.2017, 12:45
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

If there were illegal tenants living there then wouldn't it be possible that they overpopulated the flats to the point that it made egress a hazard?

When the building is designed it is normally determined how many occupants can safely stay in the building - this is calculated by the amount and types of exits as well as the distances that must be travelled to escape in an emergency.
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  #510  
Old 04.07.2017, 12:50
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

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If there were illegal tenants living there then wouldn't it be possible that they overpopulated the flats to the point that it made egress a hazard?

When the building is designed it is normally determined how many occupants can safely stay in the building - this is calculated by the amount and types of exits as well as the distances that must be travelled to escape in an emergency.
Yes, but there are huge safety margins (or at least in theory) to account for overnight guests, workmen, disabled, elderly, children. Plus the standard procedure was for residents to remain in their flat because (again, in theory) each flat would self-contain a fire.
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  #511  
Old 04.07.2017, 13:14
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

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Yes, but there are huge safety margins (or at least in theory) to account for overnight guests, workmen, disabled, elderly, children.
Yeah they are over engineered in this aspect. But they can only anticipate so much. If there were multiple one bedroom flats being occupied by two families and the like then they would be quickly over the maximum occupancy that the building was designed for - making the escape rather difficult in the event of an emergency.


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Plus the standard procedure was for residents to remain in their flat because (again, in theory) each flat would self-contain a fire.
Do you have any evidence that the procedure is for the residents to remain in their flats?
I know that the walls/floor/roof are generally constructed to a certain fire rated level to contain a fire for a certain amount of time. My understanding was that this time is used to provide a safe escape from the building - never for the people to stay in the building.
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Old 04.07.2017, 13:22
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

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Yeah they are over engineered in this aspect. But they can only anticipate so much. If there were multiple one bedroom flats being occupied by two families and the like then they would be quickly over the maximum occupancy that the building was designed for - making the escape rather difficult in the event of an emergency.
From the survivors' stories it doesn't seem that there was a stampede leaving the building. Yes, they were impeded by bodies on the stairways but that was due to smoke inhalation or other injuries but not due to excessive numbers clamouring to get out.

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Do you have any evidence that the procedure is for the residents to remain in their flats?
I know that the walls/floor/roof are generally constructed to a certain fire rated level to contain a fire for a certain amount of time. My understanding was that this time is used to provide a safe escape from the building for all the occupants - never for the occupants to stay in the building.

There were posters all over the communal areas with "stay put" instructions. It has become a major part of the investigation. Many other blocks have the same policy.

The fire in the original flat was contained and extinguished by the fire brigade but it escaped out of an open window, touched the cladding and the rest is history.
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  #513  
Old 04.07.2017, 13:30
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

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There were posters all over the communal areas with "stay put" instructions. It has become a major part of the investigation. Many other blocks have the same policy.

The fire in the original flat was contained and extinguished by the fire brigade but it escaped out of an open window, touched the cladding and the rest is history.
Crazy.

I've worked in construction is Australia and the reasons for fire rated buildings was always to provide ample time to escape.

(Interestingly i'm pretty sure fire safety was first implemented in construction after the Great Fire of London - maybe time for a reassessment)
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  #514  
Old 05.07.2017, 15:31
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

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  #515  
Old 05.07.2017, 23:24
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

All the visible remains of bodies have now been recovered

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7824411.html
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  #516  
Old 06.07.2017, 09:14
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

What I really don't understand is why the council doesn't now cover the building up?

I'm sure the sight of this burnt out building isn't making anyone who lives or works locally very happy. At least with it covered, it would contain the building given that directly through the open spaces where the open windows were (and you can see clearly) where many people died, it's such a macabre scene and in my opinion, covering it would give more respect to the dead and make it easier for the local people.
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Old 06.07.2017, 09:31
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

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What I really don't understand is why the council doesn't now cover the building up?

I'm sure the sight of this burnt out building isn't making anyone who lives or works locally very happy. At least with it covered, it would contain the building given that directly through the open spaces where the open windows were (and you can see clearly) where many people died, it's such a macabre scene and in my opinion, covering it would give more respect to the dead and make it easier for the local people.
The forensics people only just finished. Having builders tromping about the site with tarps etc. while there is an active search for bodies going on would be a non starter. The building will presumably be demolished, so they'll cover it for that, but there hasn't been much time for that kind of stuff (depending on how badly damaged the exterior of the building is it may be non trivial to get anchors in to tie the tarps to).

And... just imagine the headlines if they start a "cover up".
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  #518  
Old 06.07.2017, 09:52
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

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The forensics people only just finished. Having builders tromping about the site with tarps etc. while there is an active search for bodies going on would be a non starter. The building will presumably be demolished, so they'll cover it for that, but there hasn't been much time for that kind of stuff (depending on how badly damaged the exterior of the building is it may be non trivial to get anchors in to tie the tarps to).

And... just imagine the headlines if they start a "cover up".
I was thinking more on the lines of having scaffold built up from the outside which would then only need anchor points... ...you can then feasibly cover the scaffold with tarps except the entry points and no builders need to enter the building at all...
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Old 06.07.2017, 11:19
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

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I was thinking more on the lines of having scaffold built up from the outside which would then only need anchor points... ...you can then feasibly cover the scaffold with tarps except the entry points and no builders need to enter the building at all...
I guess primarily the recovery operation was a priority but, the other consideration would be the cost. Those tarps they stretch around buildings for renovation (or in this case to cover the horror) cost 10s of thousands and I imagine the council would come in for some heavy criticism if they are seen to be spending even a pound which isn't strictly necessary at any given stage. The spotlight of scrutiny is particularly strong on this.
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Old 06.07.2017, 12:54
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

Safety

As it is, it creates relatively little resistance to the wind. Once covered the resistance will be much bigger and thereby the forces working on it.

The building may be structurally damaged (dunno, but it seems a virtual given after it's burned out completely). In such a case you want to avoid increasing the forces working on the remains.
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