Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Off-Topic > Off-Topic > International affairs/politics  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #61  
Old 14.06.2017, 18:33
JagWaugh's Avatar
RIP
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Eglisau
Posts: 7,248
Groaned at 46 Times in 45 Posts
Thanked 14,131 Times in 5,506 Posts
JagWaugh has a reputation beyond reputeJagWaugh has a reputation beyond reputeJagWaugh has a reputation beyond reputeJagWaugh has a reputation beyond reputeJagWaugh has a reputation beyond reputeJagWaugh has a reputation beyond repute
Re: London Tower Block Fire

Quote:
View Post
Actually no, ammo without a barrel will go of with the same velocity as ammo in a barrel, only with the difference that the target is anywhere and instead of just one bit of metal to contend with you get two.
Without the chamber and barrel, the force of the charge will not impart that much motion to the slug.

It will go "Bang" and the slug will move, and you're right that it's anybody's guess as to which direction, but the slug will NOT move with anything like the speed it would exit even a very short barrel.

Not that it's harmless, but it's not the same thing as firing a round from a weapon, not even close.

But don't believe me:

https://mythresults.com/episode85
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank JagWaugh for this useful post:
  #62  
Old 14.06.2017, 18:50
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: London Tower Block Fire

Re: reports of explosions.

Lots of things explode in a fire: bottles of pop, cans of beans, all sorts of stuff.

There was a house fire down our street a couple of years ago and it was all the little explosions that alerted us to it. I say "little", but... you should have been there.

Terrifying stuff. And I cannot shift the morbid thought that it was set deliberately.

I certainly think there are going to be enormous consequences.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank for this useful post:
  #63  
Old 14.06.2017, 20:24
Medea Fleecestealer's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 22,536
Groaned at 424 Times in 327 Posts
Thanked 17,601 Times in 9,860 Posts
Medea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond repute
Re: London Tower Block Fire

12 confirmed dead. 18 still critical in hospitals.

Evidently the fire brigade were at the building on Saturday checking things like fire alarms and giving out advice on what to do if there was ever a fire.

http://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-englan...-says-resident

Last edited by Medea Fleecestealer; 14.06.2017 at 20:58.
Reply With Quote
  #64  
Old 14.06.2017, 21:04
Blueangel's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Küsnacht, Switzerland
Posts: 4,263
Groaned at 129 Times in 113 Posts
Thanked 11,415 Times in 4,982 Posts
Blueangel has a reputation beyond reputeBlueangel has a reputation beyond reputeBlueangel has a reputation beyond reputeBlueangel has a reputation beyond reputeBlueangel has a reputation beyond reputeBlueangel has a reputation beyond repute
Re: London Tower Block Fire

Quote:
View Post
I have but then I am mortally afraid of fire. I am also one of those persons who always will check the emergency exits in hotels and so on.
And I wish everyone was as diligent as you in that respect.
Quote:
View Post
You only need to be inside a burning building once, and thereafter your brainstem scans for Alarms, extinguishers and exits in every single space you enter from that moment on.

I also read the fire instructions with a grain of salt.
Exactly. It becomes second nature.

My mum burned out the kitchen 2 or 3 times when I was a kid (she was a terrible cook) and my bedroom was above the kitchen, so every year, I asked for a chain ladder on my Christmas list. I've evacuated one work building where the roof was on fire, and been evacuated another 8 or 9 times, all of them very minor and 4 occasions were in hotels.

Going back to the reports of a fridge being the cause, and my OH also mentioned Freon same as Jag, it appears that residents had repeatedly reported severe power surges in the building. Added to that, my initial thought was maybe there was one of the condemned Hotpoint Creda Indesit tumble dryers next to the fridge in this guys flat. They've been found to be the cause of several house fires in the UK even when just plugged in and not in use.

Way back in the late 80s, I found blue smoke coming out of the back of my fridge and immediately unplugged it and scrapped it. It didn't catch fire, but can a power surge make fridge catch fire, or appear to?
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Blueangel for this useful post:
  #65  
Old 14.06.2017, 21:19
3Wishes's Avatar
Moderately Amused
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Bern area
Posts: 11,353
Groaned at 90 Times in 86 Posts
Thanked 19,666 Times in 8,702 Posts
3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute
Re: London Tower Block Fire

Quote:
View Post
Has anyone seen a fire alarm in Swiss apartment buildings? Do they exist?
Quote:
View Post
None in ours, or smoke alarms.
Same here, and the only fire extinguishers are in the garage and by the entrance doors. None on any floors. And allegedly we're in a newer build.

Quote:
View Post
...

How many have a rope in their living space to get to the ground floor with?
How many have figured out where to tie that rope on the balcony AND a window ahead of time?
How many have explained this to their partner, children?
How many have practiced it?
Maybe not to that extent but I've thought about it and evaluate everywhere I stay, thanks to an experience at uni. I was in a rather tall "towers" dorm, where the two towers were separated by a walkway. The only way out of my tower was to cross the walkway to the other to get to the stairs. No stairs in my tower. Also no way to jump out the window, because it was fixed to prevent drunk students from jumping or falling out. The best you could do was open it a few inches to get some fresh air.

One night the fire alarm went off, and we went out to the walkway and saw smoke coming up from the lower floors. We knew the only way out was across and down the stairs so we had to take the chance. It turned out fine (rather spectacular kitchen mishap on the first floor) but it gave us all a scare, especially as we were in our pajamas and there had never been a fire drill or anything.

In the case of our flat it's not a super tall building. Even from the top floor one could probably jump into the gardens below and not do anything worse than break an arm or leg. I looked over and weighed it up when we considered moving to the top floor.
Reply With Quote
  #66  
Old 14.06.2017, 21:37
JagWaugh's Avatar
RIP
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Eglisau
Posts: 7,248
Groaned at 46 Times in 45 Posts
Thanked 14,131 Times in 5,506 Posts
JagWaugh has a reputation beyond reputeJagWaugh has a reputation beyond reputeJagWaugh has a reputation beyond reputeJagWaugh has a reputation beyond reputeJagWaugh has a reputation beyond reputeJagWaugh has a reputation beyond repute
Re: London Tower Block Fire

Quote:
View Post
Going back to the reports of a fridge being the cause, and my OH also mentioned Freon same as Jag, it appears that residents had repeatedly reported severe power surges in the building. Added to that, my initial thought was maybe there was one of the condemned Hotpoint Creda Indesit tumble dryers next to the fridge in this guys flat. They've been found to be the cause of several house fires in the UK even when just plugged in and not in use.

Way back in the late 80s, I found blue smoke coming out of the back of my fridge and immediately unplugged it and scrapped it. It didn't catch fire, but can a power surge make fridge catch fire, or appear to?
There are two aspect to consider about this fire. The first would be where and how the fire started (could be an appliance, or deliberate, or a cooking accident). The second would be how the building, as a structure reacted to the fire. The news says that the fire brigade arrived within 6 minutes. Even if they took an additional quarter of an hour to actually get water on the fire, I would expect the damage to have been limited to a few flats, possibly a single, or pair of floors. Earlier today the news was reporting that the fire started on one of the lower floors. I'm not an expert on fires by any means, but I'm asking myself that if the fire brigade arrived so quickly, and the building had a dry riser system (presumably it did) which worked, how could the fire get that out of control that fast. I would expect that the fire brigades SOP would be to split into two groups, one to evacuate the residents, the other to react to the fire (mainly to reduce the amount of smoke, which makes the task of the other team more difficult).

As to your question about power surges... High loads don't normally burst into flames when subjected to power surges (unless the surge is a lightning strike) Smaller devices usually contain a sacrificial device called a MOV, which will usually dampen a small spike, but will react to a large power spike by generating smoke and heat - but even a big one doesn't produce much more than a match. (your blue smoke may have been an MOV).

Now, if an appliance is constructed so that it does not fail safely, i.e. a component like a MOV placed so that it can easily ignite another internal part, or a motor which doesn't have a heat sensing cutout built in, then you can have a fire start at a single appliance.

But that is a completely different story from how a large block of flats reacts to a localized fire.
__________________
If everyone you know agrees with you consistently, they are either not listening, or not capable of critical thought.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank JagWaugh for this useful post:
  #67  
Old 14.06.2017, 22:42
Jdr Jdr is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Koblenz AG
Posts: 88
Groaned at 1 Time in 1 Post
Thanked 100 Times in 53 Posts
Jdr has earned the respect of manyJdr has earned the respect of manyJdr has earned the respect of many
Re: London Tower Block Fire

Quote:
View Post
they do but the gas isn't flammable
Wrong, very often modern fridges are filled with up 50 to 150 grams of "kältemittel R600a", which is nothing else but butane.

I know mine (V-zug) are ...
As to how dangereous this really is, I have no idea...

But some kinds of house isolation are just lethal :
check this vid, interesting parts starts at 36:00

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKeR...ature=youtu.be


Jos
Reply With Quote
  #68  
Old 15.06.2017, 00:19
Blueangel's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Küsnacht, Switzerland
Posts: 4,263
Groaned at 129 Times in 113 Posts
Thanked 11,415 Times in 4,982 Posts
Blueangel has a reputation beyond reputeBlueangel has a reputation beyond reputeBlueangel has a reputation beyond reputeBlueangel has a reputation beyond reputeBlueangel has a reputation beyond reputeBlueangel has a reputation beyond repute
Re: London Tower Block Fire

Quote:
View Post
But that is a completely different story from how a large block of flats reacts to a localized fire.
What's got alarm bells ringing for me is one of the guys who was evacuated said that the new cladding on the flats was fixed onto wood batoning.

Two years ago, a client of mine lost everything when a section of her low rise block of flats in my home town burnt down (Wharfside flats). Now this was a 100+yrs old former mill building. Solid as a rock, but some ejit decided to tart it up with three types of cladding, all of which was fixed to wood batoning. The place went up like a tinder box and a large section of the building had to be demolished.

Apologies for trying to rationalise something horrific, but these two photos show how the building was after it had been tarted up, and the exposed cladding fixings after the fire. It appears that the cladding didn't scorch and melt as with the London flats, but could the batoning and air gap between the cladding and the original concrete structure of the London flats, assist the fire to climb the outside of the building?
Attached Thumbnails
london-tower-block-fire-js66171023...jpg  
Attached Images
 
Reply With Quote
  #69  
Old 15.06.2017, 02:27
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: London Tower Block Fire

Quote:
View Post
What's got alarm bells ringing for me is one of the guys who was evacuated said that the new cladding on the flats was fixed onto wood batoning.

Two years ago, a client of mine lost everything when a section of her low rise block of flats in my home town burnt down (Whttarfside flats). Now this was a 100+yrs old former mill building. Solid as a rock, but some ejit decided to tart it up with three types of cladding, all of which was fixed to wood batoning. The place went up like a tinder box and a large section of the building had to be demolished.

Apologies for trying to rationalise something horrific, but these two photos show how the building was after it had been tarted up, and the exposed cladding fixings after the fire. It appears that the cladding didn't scorch and melt as with the London flats, but could the batoning and air gap between the cladding and the original concrete structure of the London flats, assist the fire to climb the outside of the building?


I think they're saying that between the outer layer of cladding and the building there wasn't any (or the right kind at least) insulation. The gap then basically acted like a chimney and woosh. Horrid horrid horrid. Those poor families.
Reply With Quote
  #70  
Old 15.06.2017, 03:22
Blueangel's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Küsnacht, Switzerland
Posts: 4,263
Groaned at 129 Times in 113 Posts
Thanked 11,415 Times in 4,982 Posts
Blueangel has a reputation beyond reputeBlueangel has a reputation beyond reputeBlueangel has a reputation beyond reputeBlueangel has a reputation beyond reputeBlueangel has a reputation beyond reputeBlueangel has a reputation beyond repute
Re: London Tower Block Fire

Quote:
CLADDING believed to have been used in a recent renovation of the London tower is similar to that found partly responsible for a Docklands apartment fire.

And an audit last year found more than half of Melbourne’s surveyed buildings contained highly flammable cladding.
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/vic...2ab7cd63b3daf8

Quote:
The cause of the $5 million blaze was an unextinguished cigarette on the eighth-floor balcony, but the report found that once the cladding caught fire it took less than 11 minutes for the blaze to spread up the side of the apartment complex to the 21st floor.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/busi...53bbea543cfd2b

This forum thread is like a horrific catalogue of skyscraper fires where aluminium cladding has been a facotr in the rapid spread of the fire.

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1801571
Reply With Quote
  #71  
Old 15.06.2017, 07:54
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Zurich
Posts: 13,716
Groaned at 1,283 Times in 858 Posts
Thanked 20,183 Times in 7,776 Posts
Chuff has a reputation beyond reputeChuff has a reputation beyond reputeChuff has a reputation beyond reputeChuff has a reputation beyond reputeChuff has a reputation beyond reputeChuff has a reputation beyond repute
Re: London Tower Block Fire

I would say this is the most tragic thing to happen in the UK for a long time. It's very upsetting to read the eyewitness accounts and see the photos/videos. So unnecessary ad avoidable too.

Last edited by Chuff; 15.06.2017 at 08:07.
Reply With Quote
  #72  
Old 15.06.2017, 09:15
Clumsy Maman's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Kt Zurich
Posts: 838
Groaned at 9 Times in 6 Posts
Thanked 1,200 Times in 522 Posts
Clumsy Maman has a reputation beyond reputeClumsy Maman has a reputation beyond reputeClumsy Maman has a reputation beyond reputeClumsy Maman has a reputation beyond reputeClumsy Maman has a reputation beyond repute
Re: London Tower Block Fire

This is so horrific; the sheer speed at which your world can go upside down is mind boggling.

Just over the weekend, we met with our neighbours who had a fire in their apartment 2 years ago. The lady was saying how traumatised she was and how frail she felt while her apartment was being cleaned and refurbished. Sifting through boxes of her life was one really painful experience for her. Even as she was speaking, you could see how emotional she was getting. I can't fathom what some of the people living in Grenfell must be going through - losing your worldly possessions, little or much, as they may be, must be really traumatic. Some of the things we have in our home bring us comfort, remind of special moments and losing that can bring untold sadness. I hope the people in Grenfell are given sufficient emotional support to go through this horrific moment, besides the obligatory roof and food. This is so sad!
Reply With Quote
  #73  
Old 15.06.2017, 09:36
MsWorWoo's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Winti
Posts: 1,933
Groaned at 57 Times in 37 Posts
Thanked 3,161 Times in 1,187 Posts
MsWorWoo has a reputation beyond reputeMsWorWoo has a reputation beyond reputeMsWorWoo has a reputation beyond reputeMsWorWoo has a reputation beyond reputeMsWorWoo has a reputation beyond reputeMsWorWoo has a reputation beyond repute
Re: London Tower Block Fire

Quote:
View Post
This is so horrific; the sheer speed at which your world can go upside down is mind boggling.

Just over the weekend, we met with our neighbours who had a fire in their apartment 2 years ago. The lady was saying how traumatised she was and how frail she felt while her apartment was being cleaned and refurbished. Sifting through boxes of her life was one really painful experience for her. Even as she was speaking, you could see how emotional she was getting. I can't fathom what some of the people living in Grenfell must be going through - losing your worldly possessions, little or much, as they may be, must be really traumatic. Some of the things we have in our home bring us comfort, remind of special moments and losing that can bring untold sadness. I hope the people in Grenfell are given sufficient emotional support to go through this horrific moment, besides the obligatory roof and food. This is so sad!
Photo albums for example, can never be replaced.
But I am overwhelmed by the support. On the news last night I saw a room filled with clothes donated by the public, things like that is what keeps hope for humanity alive in me. People running off buying phone chargers, poor people in the neighbourhood giving what little they have. There are so many crowdfunding sites right now. https://www.justgiving.com/crowdfund...ell-tower-fire

Last edited by MsWorWoo; 15.06.2017 at 09:40. Reason: correct link
Reply With Quote
  #74  
Old 15.06.2017, 09:36
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: London Tower Block Fire

They reckon the death toll could go well above 100. Unbelievable that such a thing can happen in this day and age.
Reply With Quote
  #75  
Old 15.06.2017, 09:41
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: ZH
Posts: 5,320
Groaned at 58 Times in 48 Posts
Thanked 2,708 Times in 1,614 Posts
SOBEIT has a reputation beyond reputeSOBEIT has a reputation beyond reputeSOBEIT has a reputation beyond reputeSOBEIT has a reputation beyond reputeSOBEIT has a reputation beyond repute
Re: London Tower Block Fire

Quote:
View Post
They reckon the death toll could go well above 100. Unbelievable that such a thing can happen in this day and age.
Exactly, reminds me of the quotes by Steve McQueen in Towering inferno.
Still haven't learnt.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank SOBEIT for this useful post:
  #76  
Old 15.06.2017, 10:35
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: London Tower Block Fire

I heard an interview yesterday that when they replaced the heating system in the building during the refurb, they had to remove insulation between the floors to replace the pipes. So there was a question about whether the between floor insulation had been replaced, and replaced correctly.

I'm sorry, I can't remember who was being interviewed - other than a young man who had researched the refurb.

It's horrible.
Reply With Quote
  #77  
Old 15.06.2017, 10:50
Castro's Avatar
à la mod
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: ZG
Posts: 5,697
Groaned at 126 Times in 102 Posts
Thanked 17,136 Times in 5,438 Posts
Castro has a reputation beyond reputeCastro has a reputation beyond reputeCastro has a reputation beyond reputeCastro has a reputation beyond reputeCastro has a reputation beyond reputeCastro has a reputation beyond repute
Re: London Tower Block Fire

Quote:
View Post
But I am overwhelmed by the support. On the news last night I saw a room filled with clothes donated by the public, things like that is what keeps hope for humanity alive in me. People running off buying phone chargers, poor people in the neighbourhood giving what little they have. There are so many crowdfunding sites right now. https://www.justgiving.com/crowdfund...ell-tower-fire
The general public have been fabulous, its the authorities who have been shambolic.. as usual.

Quote:
Charity workers and volunteers providing aid for those affected by the fire said that they were coordinating with each other on Wednesday evening, with little central coordination from the council or other authorities.

Zia Salik, of Islamic Relief, spent the day helping to collect supplies at al-Manaar Islamic centre on Acklam Road near Ladbroke Grove since the morning. He said his group had been coordinating with other Muslim charities but had little central direction from authorities.

“There’s a group of people representing different Muslim charities in London that I’m in contact with at the moment,” he said. “We’re communicating through WhatsApp.

“We’ve had a few local council workers who popped by [the centre] to see what was going on but I think to be honest it’s probably a resource issue. It’s very much down to the charities.”

Islamic Relief was not part of any prior plan to respond to a disaster such as the fire, which began in the residential tower block early on Wednesday morning. “I think, to be honest, the situation caught everybody off guard and I think that’s the nature of the emergency,” he said. “Maybe the communication element could have been stronger, but we take our hats off to the community who’ve come out.”

Volunteers at the Notting Hill Methodist church also complained of a lack of central coordination from authorities. They were turning away donations after running out of space. Ian Pilcher, a 50-year-old local resident who had been volunteering all day, said the official response appeared to be non-existent.
Source
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank Castro for this useful post:
  #78  
Old 15.06.2017, 10:56
Rob's Avatar
Rob Rob is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Baden AG
Posts: 465
Groaned at 8 Times in 7 Posts
Thanked 1,343 Times in 522 Posts
Rob has a reputation beyond reputeRob has a reputation beyond reputeRob has a reputation beyond reputeRob has a reputation beyond reputeRob has a reputation beyond repute
Re: London Tower Block Fire

The chimney effect of cladding has been known about since the 70s with the Summerland disaster.

One point that a guy on another forum who lives in Dubai made - they've had a couple of bad cladding fires there recently, the fires burnt for several hours but there were no casualties. One thing is that there was a firebreak in the cladding between each floor which inhibited the spread of the fire. I'm wondering if something like this was done with Grenfell House but that the firebreaks had been compromised in recent works.
Reply With Quote
  #79  
Old 15.06.2017, 10:57
pilatus1's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Milky Way
Posts: 1,800
Groaned at 152 Times in 103 Posts
Thanked 4,786 Times in 1,883 Posts
pilatus1 has a reputation beyond reputepilatus1 has a reputation beyond reputepilatus1 has a reputation beyond reputepilatus1 has a reputation beyond reputepilatus1 has a reputation beyond reputepilatus1 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: London Tower Block Fire

Quote:
I think they're saying that between the outer layer of cladding and the building there wasn't any (or the right kind at least) insulation. The gap then basically acted like a chimney and woosh. Horrid horrid horrid. Those poor families.
It's astonishing that the new cladding was permitted to be installed as such in a modern 24 story building. There's no need to be an engineer or architect to see that it's a bad idea building turnkey tinderboxes for people to live in. Balloon framing in timber construction fell out of favor long ago for the same reason - rapid spread of fire through the open cavities.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank pilatus1 for this useful post:
  #80  
Old 15.06.2017, 11:03
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: CH
Posts: 11,145
Groaned at 357 Times in 292 Posts
Thanked 16,467 Times in 8,373 Posts
greenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond repute
Re: London Tower Block Fire

Quote:
View Post
It's astonishing that the new cladding was permitted to be installed as such in a modern 24 story building. There's no need to be an engineer or architect to see that it's a bad idea building turnkey tinderboxes for people to live in. Balloon framing in timber construction fell out of favor long ago for the same reason - rapid spread of fire through the open cavities.
Off topic
If this happened back home, people would scream corruption and take it to the streets.

Anyway, it's really really sad, I hope those wounded have good chances of recovering.
Reply With Quote
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Fire safety regulations & law in apartment block? bmflex Housing in general 26 01.04.2019 20:58
Protesters block London City airport Dack Rambo International affairs/politics 33 07.09.2016 18:03
Uetliberg tower turnstile SouthMtn Travel/day trips/free time 24 11.04.2016 01:12
Help needed re; Flights: Block booking to London (50-80) Hausamsee Transportation/driving 19 02.10.2009 16:03


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 07:01.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0