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  #81  
Old 15.06.2017, 11:42
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

David Lammy, Labour MP for Tottenham summed it up: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...y-latimer-road

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This is the richest borough in our country treating its citizens in this way and we should call it what it is. It is corporate manslaughter. That’s what it is. And there should be arrests made, frankly. It is an outrage.

Many of us across the country have been caught up in an election knocking on housing estate doors, travelling up to the top floors of tower blocks, and we know as politicians that the conditions in this country are unacceptable.

We built buildings in the 70s. Those 70s buildings, many of them should be demolished. They have not got easy fire escapes. They have got no sprinklers. It is totally, totally unacceptable in Britain that this is allowed to happen and that people lose their lives in this way. People should be held to account.
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  #82  
Old 15.06.2017, 13:07
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

Just seen on tv that, of the 2,925 council-owned tower blocks in London, only 18 are fitted with sprinkler systems.
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Old 15.06.2017, 13:14
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

in that rotten country nothing is working
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  #84  
Old 15.06.2017, 13:17
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

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in that rotten country nothing is working
The emergency services and local community seem to be doing a stellar job, though...
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  #85  
Old 15.06.2017, 13:22
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

At least the international press is very critical towards many aspects of what is linked to law and infrastructure (and face it, the general situation of GB is not very incouraging at all, on any matter): http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/londo...a-1152211.html


Btw. the cited experts are British.
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  #86  
Old 15.06.2017, 13:29
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

The selling of council run/managed estates to private owners needs to come under greater scrutiny. It has been said many times before, not a dot should be sold until the legislation and regulations are in place to ensure that private companies/corporations abide by clear guidelines & regularly reviewed, making sure they are held accountable if they fail to upkeep buildings and estates. County councils just get to run away with their pockets full of money and do not, unfortunately, look back.

Nice now that they're blaming the corporations when they have/had a responsibility too.

The building regs in the UK don't work. You only have to look at the new homeowners complaining of dangerous wiring, ill fitting twisted pipes/ plumbing to know how bad it actually is. Building companies are not regularly held accountable for any of it and it's up to individuals to go through complicated and complex routes via the Ombudsman to get anywhere.
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Old 15.06.2017, 13:39
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

Damn! Can't blame the Muslims, Eastern-Europeans, Merkel and the migrants. The British are in despair - who is to be blamed this time?!
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  #88  
Old 15.06.2017, 14:17
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

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Damn! Can't blame the Muslims, Eastern-Europeans, Merkel and the migrants. The British are in despair - who is to be blamed this time?!
KCTMO, by all accounts
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Old 15.06.2017, 14:19
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

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Damn! Can't blame the Muslims, Eastern-Europeans, Merkel and the migrants. The British are in despair - who is to be blamed this time?!
They're all celebrating because so many migrants have lost their lives in the fire. Have you not seen? Dickhead.
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Old 15.06.2017, 14:27
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

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Dickhead.
By having the "Dickhead" out of a sentence I am not sure if its towards the Muslims, the Eastern Europeans or the Migrants. I can clearly understand its not towards Merkel unless you've failed to notice her sex. please do elaborate
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  #91  
Old 15.06.2017, 14:34
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

You can't blame all flammable cladding installed with a 'chimney gap'. There are thousands of installations like this that haven't burned down their building! /s
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  #92  
Old 15.06.2017, 14:55
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

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The building regs in the UK don't work. You only have to look at the new homeowners complaining of dangerous wiring, ill fitting twisted pipes/ plumbing to know how bad it actually is. Building companies are not regularly held accountable for any of it and it's up to individuals to go through complicated and complex routes via the Ombudsman to get anywhere.


It doesn't help that they keep updating/changing them. We live in an old house. When certain changes were made to it, they were within permitted regulations. When we bought it we had to get all sorts of insurances to bridge the regs gap. My brother works in the regs field and he despairs at the lack of joined-up thinking.
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  #93  
Old 15.06.2017, 14:56
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

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You can't blame all flammable cladding installed with a 'chimney gap'. There are thousands of installations like this that haven't burned down their building! /s
Agreed. A catastrophe of this magnitude is usually a collaborative effort. Each party will have their litany of excuses:
  • We followed the code/current practice,
  • A subcontractor installed it incorrectly & the company we subcontracted the inspection to failed to notify us of the faults,
  • We contracted the work to a specialist (for the lowest price),
  • The materials used were substandard, no one knows how they got on the building site,
    (you would not believe how long this list is)

Possibly, just possibly, the coroner's inquest will note that various people said "You shouldn't do it like that." at various stages leading up to the fire, and they may even record that the response was "Ten pounds??? There isn't that much!". The inquest will include a report, citing various factors.

And the press, and the public will pick one or possibly more bad guys to heap the blame on. People might even end up in jail.

Cladding will become an unword, and there will be a number of specialist companies dedicated to the removal of cladding (a known fire hazard) and replacing it with... something equally cheap and easy to install incorrectly - there will probably be grants and tax cuts available for building owners so that they can conform to the new, safer code.

There will be much activity, and exchange of monies until the next catastrophe.

Not that I'm cynical, mind you, but I have stood up in a couple of meetings and said "You can't do it that way." People who aren't team players do that sometimes.
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Old 15.06.2017, 15:03
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

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By having the "Dickhead" out of a sentence I am not sure if its towards the Muslims, the Eastern Europeans or the Migrants. I can clearly understand its not towards Merkel unless you've failed to notice her sex. please do elaborate
He meant the British of course, his pet target.
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  #95  
Old 15.06.2017, 15:06
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

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Cladding will become an unword, and there will be a number of specialist companies dedicated to the removal of cladding (a known fire hazard) and replacing it with... something equally cheap and easy to install incorrectly
I've been avoiding getting back into the conversation because I seem to not having yet understood what cladding is - at least from the way people are railing against it - and the Wikipedia article is getting me even more confused. Because I apparently use cladding quite often in my buildings. Or perhaps not. I am not sure.

Can someone please explain to a foreign architect what cladding is so I can try to understand why everyone is putting the blame on it?
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  #96  
Old 15.06.2017, 15:07
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

17 dead confirmed now.
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  #97  
Old 15.06.2017, 15:09
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

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17 dead confirmed now.


And it's all over the news that they are not expecting to find any more survivors now. After shoring up the building they are sending dogs in before going ahead with a "fingertip" search.


The rescue services have been amazing by all accounts.
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Old 15.06.2017, 15:18
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

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I've been avoiding getting back into the conversation because I seem to not having yet understood what cladding is - at least from the way people are railing against it - and the Wikipedia article is getting me even more confused. Because I apparently use cladding quite often in my buildings. Or perhaps not. I am not sure.

Can someone please explain to a foreign architect what cladding is so I can try to understand why everyone is putting the blame on it?
As you're an Architect working here the german word would be Fassade.

It's often used purely as an aesthetic addition attached to the outside of the main building structure, or in the case here it was not only aesthetic addition, but also contained insulating (isolieren) material behind the metal outer part. It's this insulating material that's suspected to have been flammable and caused the fire to spread so quickly.
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Old 15.06.2017, 15:27
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

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I've been avoiding getting back into the conversation because I seem to not having yet understood what cladding is - at least from the way people are railing against it - and the Wikipedia article is getting me even more confused. Because I apparently use cladding quite often in my buildings. Or perhaps not. I am not sure.

Can someone please explain to a foreign architect what cladding is so I can try to understand why everyone is putting the blame on it?
Pure conjecture here, but...

The buildings were built in the '70s, the original exterior appears to be brick which will probably have needed repointing by now, but that takes money, skill and time, so they've installed a layer of metal to keep the rain off the mortar so that they can ignore the fact that the building needs repointing.

There may be insulation on the inner surface of the metal skin (we could save on heating costs AND help the environment!), almost certainly plastic clips to hold the edges together (Cheaper than metal), and probably an air gap between the rear surface of the cladding and the outer surface of the brick (to avoid trapped moisture which would further degrade the pointing and cause mould).

Once a fire starts between the back of the cladding and the brick the air gap works like a chimney. Well, more like a turbo propane torch than a chimney. If the air passage upwards isn't interrupted by a non flammable break about every floor, the flames go up very, very fast, igniting those areas and the melted plastic in the lower region drops down to the space below ensuring that they also catch fire.

Then whacking great sheets of heated metal fall off the building making it exceedingly dangerous for firefighters to get in, or occupants to get out.

As I wrote last night, once the flames reach a window the glass breaks, and the fire can enter the interior.

"Cladding" in this sense just means "Skin", usually to protect the building from the elements, or to beautify it.

Does any of this help you understand what might have happened last night?
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Old 15.06.2017, 15:31
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Re: London Tower Block Fire

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It's often used purely as an aesthetic addition attached to the outside of the main building structure, or in the case here it was not only aesthetic addition, but also contained insulating (isolieren) material behind the metal outer part. It's this insulating material that's suspected to have been flammable and caused the fire to spread so quickly.
Grenfell Tower was a much complained about eyesore by many of the borough's wealthier residents and a new development of luxury flats opposite appeared to be what finally spurred the council into action.

So my guess is that it was primarily for aesthetic reasons because the installation of sprinklers in-line with the recommendations from the 2009 Lakanal House fire should have been a higher priority for that £10M spend.

As for thermal insulation, does it really get that cold in central London and is external cladding the best solution?
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