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  #141  
Old 20.06.2017, 09:42
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Re: And so it begins, mosque attacked in London

"Mother describes alleged Finsbury Park Mosque attacker as 'no terrorist - just a man with problems'"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017...mosque-attack/

Tom
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  #142  
Old 20.06.2017, 09:42
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Re: And so it begins, mosque attacked in London

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In all the papers this morning.


Do you have the internets where you live, or are you still on the pigeon post?
I don't quote anything in the news without giving a source, cos' expecting people to Google evidence on what you say is just lazy and bad form.

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"Mother describes alleged Finsbury Park Mosque attacker as 'no terrorist - just a man with problems'"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017...mosque-attack/

Tom
I also think it's a hate crime, not terrorism. Quote from a Guardian luvvie article: https://www.theguardian.com/politics...shift-rhetoric

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But as Dr Chris Allen of Birmingham University has pointed out, Islamophobia is more akin to everyday racism or homophobia perpetrated by ordinary people rather than the exclusive reserve of a terrorist ideology.
Makes sense to me.

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Richdog's posting is normal of the very highest standard - in terms of providing relevant links. The content is obviously drivel, but it is well supported drivel nonetheless.
Damn right! Oh no, wait a minute...

Last edited by Chuff; 20.06.2017 at 09:57.
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  #143  
Old 20.06.2017, 09:45
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Re: And so it begins, mosque attacked in London

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I don't quote anything in the news without giving a source, cos' expecting people to Google evidence on what you say is just lazy and bad form.
I thought EF was the same as Google.
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  #144  
Old 20.06.2017, 09:47
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Re: And so it begins, mosque attacked in London

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"Mother describes alleged Finsbury Park Mosque attacker as 'no terrorist - just a man with problems'"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017...mosque-attack/

Tom
This is the problem with "word inflation". Because the bloke in the Australian coffee shop was a terrorist and the fellow on the bridge at Westminster was a terrorist, this other chap has to be a terrorist too, otherwise it just wouldn't be fair (cue tired skin colour chart meme).


In a few years' time, every mugging, bus stop grope and distraction burglary will be an act of terrorism.
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  #145  
Old 20.06.2017, 09:51
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Re: And so it begins, mosque attacked in London

<yawn> its got pretty boring now, bbc is still going OTT about this 'terrorist'. probably the world worst 'terrorist' he even makes Richard Reid look good
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  #146  
Old 20.06.2017, 09:56
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Re: And so it begins, mosque attacked in London

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In a few years' time, every mugging, bus stop grope and distraction burglary will be an act of terrorism.
You mean... words don't mean what they mean anymore?

That's the second thyme this weak that I've red that hear on EF.

Communication is difficult enough when people more or less agree that a word indicates a fairly specific state of affairs which may or may not have a fuzzy border.

But then... what do I no?
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  #147  
Old 20.06.2017, 10:01
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Re: And so it begins, mosque attacked in London

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Surely it is a good old fashioned racial hate crime?
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I also think it's a hate crime, not terrorism. Quote from a Guardian luvvie article: https://www.theguardian.com/politics...shift-rhetoric
Oh good god, Richdog and the Guardian are agreeing with me!
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  #148  
Old 20.06.2017, 10:09
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Re: And so it begins, mosque attacked in London

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Sunday morning - <a href="https://www.algemeiner.com/2017/06/18/hezbollah-flags-fly-in-london-as-jewish-protesters-counter-al-quds-day-march/" target="_blank">Muslim extermists and Corbynites march in support of terrorism. Media response - yawn.

Sunday Evening - Terrorist attack on Muslims outside a Mosque with a history of Extremism. Media goes wild, vigils are held.

Man bites dog.
I call bullshit on your bullshit pashosh.


Marching in support of terrorism? I think you mean marching in support of a free Palestine. Which, to most people, means marching against terrorism.


Oh wait, i forgot...to you, a free Palestine is terrifying.


Speakers:
Mick Napier - Scottish Palestine Solidarity Campaign
Rabbi Cohen
Baroness Jenny Tonge
Michael Kalmanovitz (IJAN UK)
Rabbi Cohen
Sara Russell
Sheikh Usama Ghani
Sheukh Bahmanpour
Naomi Wimborne-Idrissi - Jews for Boycotting Israeli Goods
Supporting Organisations:
Islamic Human Rights Commission
Union of Islamic Students Association in the UK
Islamic Students Association in London
Ahlulbayt Islamic Mission
Cambridge Stop the War Coalition
Friends of Al-Aqsa
InMinds
Jews for Boycotting Israeli Goods
Muslim Association of Britain
Neturei Karta UK
Scottish Palestine Solidarity Campaign
Stop the War Coalition


Theres nothing about Corbyn there either.


With all your anti-palestine xenephobia, leaking into almost every thread you comment on, you are a joke.
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  #149  
Old 20.06.2017, 10:18
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Re: And so it begins, mosque attacked in London

The difference between terrorism and hate crime is not in the methodology or even in the justification.


The difference is the choice of victim. A hate crime seeks to victimise a specific individual or individuals. It is not indiscriminate. IE, kill a specific person (colleague, coworker, neighbour etc) because they are muslim.


Terrorism is the same thing, but with an indiscriminate choice of victim, designed to breed fear in the greater population. IE, kill as many muslims as possible at a specific time, to scare all muslims.


Based on that explanation, it was indeed a terrorist attack.
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  #150  
Old 20.06.2017, 10:26
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Re: And so it begins, mosque attacked in London

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The difference between terrorism and hate crime is not in the methodology or even in the justification.


The difference is the choice of victim. A hate crime seeks to victimise a specific individual or individuals. It is not indiscriminate. IE, kill a specific person (colleague, coworker, neighbour etc) because they are muslim.


Terrorism is the same thing, but with an indiscriminate choice of victim, designed to breed fear in the greater population. IE, kill as many muslims as possible at a specific time, to scare all muslims.


Based on that explanation, it was indeed a terrorist attack.
Really?
Perhaps we should go for a simpler one from the OED - "The unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims."
(And for balance this is hate crime "A crime, typically one involving violence, that is motivated by prejudice on the basis of race, religion, sexual orientation, or other grounds.")

Has anything come to light showing the perpetrator had any political allegiance? That he was actively pushing a political agenda? Or was he simply a middle aged man with anger issues who thought he was being clever?

Had he driven the van into a line of homosexuals waiting outside a nightclub would it have been terrorism?
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  #151  
Old 20.06.2017, 10:32
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Re: And so it begins, mosque attacked in London

One man´s terrorist is another man´s freedom fighter but I wonder what the media feeding frenzy backlash would have been if the Imam had let the mob tear the terrorist limb from limb?
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  #152  
Old 20.06.2017, 10:37
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Re: And so it begins, mosque attacked in London

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Really?
Perhaps we should go for a simpler one from the OED - "The unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims."
(And for balance this is hate crime "A crime, typically one involving violence, that is motivated by prejudice on the basis of race, religion, sexual orientation, or other grounds.")

Has anything come to light showing the perpetrator had any political allegiance? That he was actively pushing a political agenda? Or was he simply a middle aged man with anger issues who thought he was being clever?

Had he driven the van into a line of homosexuals waiting outside a nightclub would it have been terrorism?

'Im going to kill all muslims' seems pretty political to me. One might say its very extreme, but it is political nonetheless.


Lets break this down, shall we?
Terrorism:
The unlawful use of violence and intimidation, (Check)
especially against civilians, (Check)
in the pursuit of political aims.(Check)

Hate Crime:
A crime, (check)
typically one involving violence, (check)
that is motivated by prejudice on the basis of race, religion, sexual orientation, or other grounds (check)

So, based on the OED definition, it is both. so which applies in this case?


If you beat somebody up so bad that they die, you are charged with murder, not Grevious Bodily Harm.


If you commit an act of terror, which also happens to be a hate crime, you are charged with Terrorism.
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  #153  
Old 20.06.2017, 10:47
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Re: And so it begins, mosque attacked in London

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'Im going to kill all muslims' seems pretty political to me. One might say its very extreme, but it is political nonetheless.
What exactly is his political motivation?

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If you commit an act of terror, which also happens to be a hate crime, you are charged with Terrorism.
A lone wolf terrorist acting in support of the prevailing government commits an act of terror.
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  #154  
Old 20.06.2017, 10:51
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Re: And so it begins, mosque attacked in London

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Really?
Perhaps we should go for a simpler one from the OED - "The unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims."
The problem with the OED is that it is descriptivist rather than prescriptivist i.e. how language is used rather than how it should be used. 'Terrorism' first appeared in the OED in 1795 and back then it was used exclusively to describe government tyranny on its people.

The UN Security council does a much better job in defining 'terrorism'.

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[Terrorism comprises] criminal acts, including against civilians, committed with the intent to cause death or serious bodily injury, or taking of hostages, with the purpose to provoke a state of terror in the general public or in a group of persons or particular persons, intimidate a population or compel a government or an international organization to do or to abstain from doing any act, and all other acts which constitute offences within the scope of and as defined in the international conventions and protocols relating to terrorism
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  #155  
Old 20.06.2017, 10:54
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Re: And so it begins, mosque attacked in London

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Marching in support of terrorism? I think you mean marching in support of a free Palestine. Which, to most people, means marching against in support of terrorism.
FTFY.

Tom
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  #156  
Old 20.06.2017, 11:51
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Re: And so it begins, mosque attacked in London

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What exactly is his political motivation?
What was the political motivation of Salman Abedi? What evidence do you have of his political motivation? Was he a terrorist?
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  #157  
Old 20.06.2017, 11:59
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Re: And so it begins, mosque attacked in London

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What was the political motivation of Salman Abedi? What evidence do you have of his political motivation? Was he a terrorist?
What's with the old time legal principle that people are supposed to get hanged because of what they did, not because of who their friends are (and I guess political motivation is the modern version of having the wrong friends)

These days just liking the wrong stuff on facebook can make or nor make you a terrorist. And seeing some people may have clumsy fingers, this is a rather questionable basis for legal discrimination.
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  #158  
Old 20.06.2017, 12:07
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Re: And so it begins, mosque attacked in London

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What was the political motivation of Salman Abedi? What evidence do you have of his political motivation? Was he a terrorist?
The Westminster Bridge attacker had no terrorist links as concluded by the Police, they say he acted alone. His final message gives some insight into why he did what he did.

Quote:
In the message, sent just minutes before he began the rampage in which five people died and 50 were injured, the 52-year-old Muslim convert had declared that he was waging jihad in revenge against Western military action in Muslim countries in the Middle East.
Source
I don't remember having a debate on semantics then. The man was a terrorist plain and simple... unless he wasn't?
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Old 20.06.2017, 12:09
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Re: And so it begins, mosque attacked in London

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What was the political motivation of Salman Abedi? What evidence do you have of his political motivation? Was he a terrorist?
I guess it's all very subjective anyway. Mr Angry has got a bee in his bonnet about XYZ and fuels his anger by clicking around the relevant echo chambers, smoking the right stuff, popping the right pills, psyching himself up to inflate his self-importance that "he will be the one to make a difference and show all those ABC people"

The motivation is entirely in their own heads, probably stitched together from snowballing misinformation and peer pressure.

I can't help but feel that the ultimate motivation that puts them on the path of a deadly attack is an inherent unhinged, homicidal tendency to see how it feels to kill lots of people in obscene ways in an ultimate show of control. Then go out in a blaze of "glory".

Plenty of people get themselves incandescent with rage about politics but what percentage of them go on to cause actual harm to humans?
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Old 20.06.2017, 12:16
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Re: And so it begins, mosque attacked in London

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What's with the old time legal principle that people are supposed to get hanged because of what they did, not because of who their friends are (and I guess political motivation is the modern version of having the wrong friends)
I'm not making any legal claim. Just a simple apples to apples comparison, but a truer comparison would be to the Charleston church shootings.

Having said that, if we were to make it a legal analysis, there are many factors that change this from a hate crime to terrorism, one of them being...
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'Im going to kill all muslims' seems pretty political to me. One might say its very extreme, but it is political nonetheless.
The attackers own words change the nature of the crime. Malice aforethought - this was no drunken assault of a person who is different from the assailant. Lastly, choice of location. He drove 150 miles to specifically target a London mosque when there are 17 mosques in his home town. He deliberately chose a higher profile location as his target, and still got the one round the corner instead. He stopped and asked for directions to Finsbury Park Mosque.
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