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Old 01.07.2017, 08:30
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Are they right in their heads in USA

In New York if you get caught on the public transport without a ticket one can be jailed for a year and get a fine for 1000CHF. They are sick! Now they are reducing the penalty because the jails are getting too full. USA-third world land.

https://www.bluewin.ch/de/news/vermi...ftstrafe-.html
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Old 01.07.2017, 09:57
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Re: Are they right in their heads in USA

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In New York if you get caught on the public transport without a ticket one can be jailed for a year and get a fine for 1000CHF. They are sick! Now they are reducing the penalty because the jails are getting too full. USA-third world land.

https://www.bluewin.ch/de/news/vermi...ftstrafe-.html
I hear that Switzerland is considering jail terms for people who reach a certain quantity of negative EF rep, too.
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Old 01.07.2017, 10:23
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Re: Are they right in their heads in USA

Why would they fine them in CHF?

Tom
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Old 01.07.2017, 10:35
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Re: Are they right in their heads in USA

Hail a cab. Taxi!
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Old 01.07.2017, 12:00
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Re: Are they right in their heads in USA

Are you upset that the fine was so high, or that they are considering reducing the fine or replacing it with alternative penalties such as community service?

More background, in English, from the NYT:
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/30/n...york.html?_r=0

Those who don't know NY: Fare jumping has long been a problem, not unlike the here in Switzerland where too many people regularly try to evade paying fares, resulting in the SBB trying various approaches to combat the problem. In both systems the money lost significantly affects budgeting, higher ticket prices are the result - meaning we all pay for the bad apples.

In NY, the crime is/was defined as theft - theft of service.

For 20 some years NYC has pursued a strategy of 'broken window policing', that is, cracking down on relatively minor crimes on the theory that doing so was a way to restore people's notions of how one should live in a city, take pride in one's surroundings - and thus lead to a drop in more serious crime. Zero tolerance of fare jumping was one part of that strategy.

That strategy has been controversial. Certainly many NYC neighborhoods are far better places to live today than they were in the 80s. Many credit 'broken window policing' with that turn around. But the practice also led to heavy-handedness that focused on some communities disproportionately, fines were disproportionate to the offence and of course led to criminal records for a large segment of the population, with the resulting consequences.

(A criminal record can cut you off from many jobs or legit opportunities... ultimately leaving you with only further crime as an option. Own goal, or not? Hence the controversy.)

Yes, a potential fine of $1000 seems crazy. (And I agree, the fine is disproportionate.) The justification for such high fines was as a deterrent for the majority rather than as restitution for the offence.

But similarly, take the case of Swiss fines for speeding. To many from outside Switzerland these may seem equally disproportionate. Those fines, too, are issued as a deterent to the majority rather than as restitution for the offence.

Different countries focus on trying to change different aspects of unsocial behavior - what is an 'outrageous' penalty to you may seem perfectly justified to someone in another country. Witness the myriad of EF speeding threads...

Anyway, I see it as a positive that NYC is willing to review their strategy. The problem is real, the economic consequences to all users real. But the remedy is not having the effect the current strategy had hoped for. Time for a change, let's hope they can come up with a more effective strategy than the current one.
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Old 01.07.2017, 12:55
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Re: Are they right in their heads in USA

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I hear that Switzerland is considering jail terms for people who reach a certain quantity of negative EF rep, too.
More to the point, why have it?
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Old 01.07.2017, 13:05
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Re: Are they right in their heads in USA

If they made public transport free, the problem would be solved and more people would use it.
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Old 01.07.2017, 13:10
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Re: Are they right in their heads in USA

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In New York if you get caught on the public transport without a ticket one can be jailed for a year and get a fine for 1000CHF. They are sick! Now they are reducing the penalty because the jails are getting too full. USA-third world land.

https://www.bluewin.ch/de/news/vermi...ftstrafe-.html
Fines that hurt, really hurt, I can understand. As Meloncollie said, the fare-paying passengers are propping up the fare-dodgers, which is patently not "fare" ( ).

Prison is a bit counter-productive in my humble opinion. Getting tax payers to then pay for their upkeep for whatever jailterm they are sentenced to strays a bit into insult-to-injury territory.
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Old 01.07.2017, 13:10
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Re: Are they right in their heads in USA

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More to the point, why have it?
Why have negative rep? If that's what you're asking, then yes, SOBEIT, I've often wondered that myself. Seems so unnecessary. But there are other threads about this.
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Old 01.07.2017, 13:29
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Re: Are they right in their heads in USA

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Why have negative rep? If that's what you're asking, then yes, SOBEIT, I've often wondered that myself. Seems so unnecessary. But there are other threads about this.
Always good to remind folk.
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Old 01.07.2017, 15:27
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Re: Are they right in their heads in USA

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In New York if you get caught on the public transport without a ticket one can be jailed for a year and get a fine for 1000CHF. They are sick! Now they are reducing the penalty because the jails are getting too full. USA-third world land.

https://www.bluewin.ch/de/news/vermi...ftstrafe-.html
This is the 10th thread you open to bash the USA.
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Old 01.07.2017, 15:41
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Re: Are they right in their heads in USA

Why even judge other countries that are trying to address their issues in the good will to help the situation? I do not assume that NYC politicians and legislature people are not right in their heads, OP.

With your theory - why aren't you bashing countries that banned chewing gum and imprison importers/sellers for two years? I find chewing gum benign compared to not paying for a service one helped himself to.

How about other countries not overloading their nonexisting prisons but getting rid off offenders with no trials? Infidels..

1000$ fine is unfortunate and do not think helps but from an edu perspective, it symbolizes a very expensive service that is too hard to finance, as it is, in cities. It has been closed or never developed between many cities or in the country really. So why support thieves. Happy citizen is a mobile citizen. A few thieves spoil it for the rest and then there will not be public transport at all. It is like with people not motivated to pay their taxes.
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Old 01.07.2017, 16:05
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Re: Are they right in their heads in USA

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Why even judge other countries...
Exactly! Also, why judge a country by a city which has a higher population than Switzerland?
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Old 01.07.2017, 16:49
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Re: Are they right in their heads in USA

No but that's coveted in other threads!
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Old 01.07.2017, 17:09
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Re: Are they right in their heads in USA

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More to the point, why have it?
So that we as a forum can disavow random trolls who come along and post their whines on an irregular basis.

Not that that has anything to do with the OP.
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Old 01.07.2017, 17:55
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Re: Are they right in their heads in USA

Travelling without a ticket does not endanger life.
Speeding does.Hit the racers harder with fines and jail. But I am sure its all good business for the private run jails!
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Are you upset that the fine was so high, or that they are considering reducing the fine or replacing it with alternative penalties such as community service?

More background, in English, from the NYT:
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/30/n...york.html?_r=0

Those who don't know NY: Fare jumping has long been a problem, not unlike the here in Switzerland where too many people regularly try to evade paying fares, resulting in the SBB trying various approaches to combat the problem. In both systems the money lost significantly affects budgeting, higher ticket prices are the result - meaning we all pay for the bad apples.

In NY, the crime is/was defined as theft - theft of service.

For 20 some years NYC has pursued a strategy of 'broken window policing', that is, cracking down on relatively minor crimes on the theory that doing so was a way to restore people's notions of how one should live in a city, take pride in one's surroundings - and thus lead to a drop in more serious crime. Zero tolerance of fare jumping was one part of that strategy.

That strategy has been controversial. Certainly many NYC neighborhoods are far better places to live today than they were in the 80s. Many credit 'broken window policing' with that turn around. But the practice also led to heavy-handedness that focused on some communities disproportionately, fines were disproportionate to the offence and of course led to criminal records for a large segment of the population, with the resulting consequences.

(A criminal record can cut you off from many jobs or legit opportunities... ultimately leaving you with only further crime as an option. Own goal, or not? Hence the controversy.)

Yes, a potential fine of $1000 seems crazy. (And I agree, the fine is disproportionate.) The justification for such high fines was as a deterrent for the majority rather than as restitution for the offence.

But similarly, take the case of Swiss fines for speeding. To many from outside Switzerland these may seem equally disproportionate. Those fines, too, are issued as a deterent to the majority rather than as restitution for the offence.

Different countries focus on trying to change different aspects of unsocial behavior - what is an 'outrageous' penalty to you may seem perfectly justified to someone in another country. Witness the myriad of EF speeding threads...

Anyway, I see it as a positive that NYC is willing to review their strategy. The problem is real, the economic consequences to all users real. But the remedy is not having the effect the current strategy had hoped for. Time for a change, let's hope they can come up with a more effective strategy than the current one.
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Old 01.07.2017, 18:11
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Re: Are they right in their heads in USA

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So that we as a forum can disavow random trolls who come along and post their whines on an irregular basis.

Not that that has anything to do with the OP.
Really.. how can you write that with a straight face.
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Old 01.07.2017, 18:17
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Re: Are they right in their heads in USA

I guess you love paying your taxes and just cant wait for the day when you can send all that money to the Governor. Well thats motivation!
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Why even judge other countries that are trying to address their issues in the good will to help the situation? I do not assume that NYC politicians and legislature people are not right in their heads, OP.

With your theory - why aren't you bashing countries that banned chewing gum and imprison importers/sellers for two years? I find chewing gum benign compared to not paying for a service one helped himself to.

How about other countries not overloading their nonexisting prisons but getting rid off offenders with no trials? Infidels..

1000$ fine is unfortunate and do not think helps but from an edu perspective, it symbolizes a very expensive service that is too hard to finance, as it is, in cities. It has been closed or never developed between many cities or in the country really. So why support thieves. Happy citizen is a mobile citizen. A few thieves spoil it for the rest and then there will not be public transport at all. It is like with people not motivated to pay their taxes.
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Old 01.07.2017, 20:18
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Re: Are they right in their heads in USA

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If they made public transport free, the problem would be solved and more people would use it.
Correct. However are you aware of the downside to this free public transport utopia? Here is my arguement as to why a good idea does not always work.
Has anyone ever been to Miami? If you have, did you ever travel on the Metromover, or the "trolley"? These are two means of public transport that feed Downtown Miami and Brickell...and they are free. The problems here are the down-and-outs, the drug pushers and street gangs who also use it. Many a time I witnessed elderly locals, single young students and foreign tourists harassed, pick pocketed, insulted, and physically assaulted. It is not unheard of to see a junky shoot up in the carriage in front of people, then there's the drunks who would often urinate in the carriage...men and women.
Miami-Dade Transit was forced to hire armed security guards to travel on the trains and patrol the stations, almost every week I witnessed armed police enter the carriage to forcibly arrest some young hoodlum. Now obviously having paying passengers will not eradicate this, but I am sure it would go a long way to reducing such abuse.
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Old 01.07.2017, 21:34
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Re: Are they right in their heads in USA

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I guess you love paying your taxes and just cant wait for the day when you can send all that money to the Governor. Well thats motivation!
What does my understanding what taxes are for and paying them actually has to do with any kind of love/excitement?! I guess I find being unmotivated to chip in for services we all use, dishonorable. Nothing to do with loving taxes. Do you tell a waiter when you are taking care of the bill how unexcited you are about paying it? Owing taxes when it is not a result of some grave accident or unfortunate situation..but simple unmotivation is theft, imho.

Do you get excited licking a stamp you bought and sticking it on a letter? Paying for a bottle of coke?

Why differentiate with paying for public transportation service, then. If the city is so desperate that they fine unpaying customers 1000$ then the system is practically bankrupt. I guess people aren't excited enough to pay for what they use.

I am an advocate for partisan ways, quite often...but certaily not in this.
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