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Old 07.07.2017, 15:21
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Re: Is gender a spectrum?

Others have said it but I will say again. Sex and Gender are not the same thing.

Sex is biological. It's generally genetic but do do find individuals with Y chromosomes that are physiologically female, so do you go by phenotype or genotype, and how does one pigeonhole intersex individuals? Generally speaking though a vast majority of people on the planet fall into either female (XX chromosomes with vagina) or male (XY chromosomes with penis).

Gender is a social construct and based on many different aspects. What you wear, how you act, how you are perceived etc. Generally speaking, most westerner and Abrahamic religion based cultures assume that when the sex is female the individual is a girl/woman and when the sex is male the individual is a boy/man.

Different cultures have different genders, some of which are tied into sexuality (for example in some cultures, in order to be a practicing male homosexual one must become a 'third' gender of male that is womanly, as seen in some parts of India with the Hijra, although there is likely overlap with transgender individuals rather than only homosexual individuals).

People who are transgender in Western/Abrahamic religion based cultures are biologically one sex but identify as the other sex OR gender that is associated with the other sex. In some cases there is body dis-morphia, but whether the hatred for your sexual organs is caused by body dis-morphia or whether it's your trans-sex/gender position that gets built up to body dis-morphia is hard to know. Other cases hormonal therapy is enough to feel comfortable in your body. These are cases of when the outward appearance needs to be changed to reflect the person's gender in firmly in the opposite of male=man, female=woman perception.

Other people who do not fit the male=man or female=woman dynamic tend not to feel the need to physiologically change their sex to conform to the cultural binary distinctions, or even feel they belong in the opposite sex-gender role. i.e. I wear trousers, swear like a trooper, can't stand to cook and clean, can read a map, can't multi-task, never wear make up etc etc, but despite these opposite gender stereotypes, still identify as a woman. Not a very feminine woman but a woman none the less. And that is generally how I am perceived too (despite the trousers and make-up thing). Males who are men, however that do the opposite, wear skirts, are polite and retiring, love to cook and clean, always need directions, can juggle many tasks at once, and wear make up are often perceived as either being trans or at least not a 'real' man. It's a shame that things are so sexist in this regard. It's quite shocking really how one-sided this gender view is, just look at the boys and men across Europe that wear skirts to get around uniform/dress codes in hot weather. It's in the news, everyone talks about it. But I wear trousers all the time, no-one bats an eye.

My (post-op trans-sexual) friend said to me once, that she was not trans-gender, because she had not changed her gender. She said that, as gender is how you feel, there are as many genders as their are people on the planet. So, if you must define gender, it is not binary, or even a spectrum, but the most complex multi-dimensional Venn diagram in the world.

Anyway, my drivel did start with a point, and that is was that sex has a completely different definition than gender.
Also, people should not say gender when they mean sex as this really confuses the issue. (I was asked if I knew the gender of my child at my 20 week scan for example, me response was that we probably would not know that until it was at least 5 years old, and that I didn't know the sex either).

As a geneticist and an archaeologist I especially get riled up when the wrong term is used. Sex is not a dirty word when it is a noun (or even when it is a verb to be honest).

Last edited by 3Wishes; 07.07.2017 at 18:30. Reason: added some returns to make reading a bit easier :)
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  #42  
Old 07.07.2017, 15:27
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Re: Is gender a spectrum?

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Um.

There are two possibilities, biologically speaking, for gender.

Everything *else* is a social / political construct.
I have no idea about the tree hugging hippie crap, so I won't comment on it. What I do know however is that there are more than two biological options. I once watched a documentary that there are thousands of cases each year where babies are somewhere in between... and doctors often at birth make a judgement call on what to enter in the documents and often recommend the parents to have an operation for the kid as early as possible. Now that's a proper Friday afternoon topic.
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  #43  
Old 07.07.2017, 15:30
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Re: Is gender a spectrum?

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Others have said it but I will say again. Sex and Gender are not the same thing.
Sex is biological. It's generally genetic but do do find individuals with Y chromosomes that are physiologically female, so do you go by phenotype or genotype, and how does one pigeonhole intersex individuals? Generally speaking though a vast majority of people on the planet fall into either female (XX chromosomes with vagina) or male (XY chromosomes with penis).
Intersex is fundamentally a genetic error, though - while the phenotypic expressions vary wildly, it's still a genetic defect of some sort. That doesn't take away from their humanity, nor should it dictate gender expression - but other than the precise medical description of their condition, no further pigeonholes are needed.

I agree about people getting the sex/gender thing mixed up. It bugs the bejezus out of me, too.

Gender depends absolutely on cultural norms. Without culture to define it, gender doesn't exist. It's just people being themselves. However, enculturation puts enormous pressure on individuals to conform, and that's what causes a lot of issues in non-conforming individuals. That's why a lot of societies evolved what amount to cultural pressure valves - alternate expressions, genders or lifestyle choices that allowed non-conforming individuals to occupy a culturally acceptable place in the society while still being themselves.

EDIT: Noting what Treverus said, I'm not a fan of sex assignation surgery of intersex individuals before they are old enough to make that call themselves, unless there is an overriding medical reason to do so.
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  #44  
Old 07.07.2017, 15:35
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Re: Is gender a spectrum?

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Intersex is fundamentally a genetic error, though - while the phenotypic expressions vary wildly, it's still a genetic defect of some sort........

This could be up for some interesting debate:


As we understand the mind and the brain better, perhaps a combination of genetic errors and defects cause an individual to oppose the societally defined gender norms as well.
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  #45  
Old 07.07.2017, 15:41
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Re: Is gender a spectrum?

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This could be up for some interesting debate:


As we understand the mind and the brain better, perhaps a combination of genetic errors and defects cause an individual to oppose the societally defined gender norms as well.
That's true, and there is a fair bit of debate on that (and many other questions about how far genetics influence behavior). But that's at a far subtler level than pure sex determination. Anything that isn't XX or XY is an error.

And having a genetic error isn't some kind of stigma - most of us do at some level. However, I don't think that having a genetic condition requires an exception to saying two sexes.
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Old 07.07.2017, 15:45
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Re: Is gender a spectrum?

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I'm not sure if I'm reading your post correctly. Do you mean that as a result of some (well written) article on the internet you're somehow not clear on who you are, and what you like?
.
A little, maybe, i don't know really! Though nothing much has changed, i identified female before and i still do now! It's more that i thought i understood this topic and have just realised that I don't after all

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Wow are those symbols for real?!

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Pixie, every time you post it's like you were just born yesterday. First the weird drug thing, and now this. The mind boggles.
Mwah!

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Maybe one led to the other.
Funny you should say that... actually i will touch on the anecdote then... someone who had sought out the medicine to help them with issues they had been having regarding their gender. I was having a conversation about it!
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  #47  
Old 07.07.2017, 15:47
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Re: Is gender a spectrum?

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Wow are those symbols for real?!
Some are, some are not. I see a few Warhammer 40K symbols, and one for a bipolar junction transistor... but many are. Look up MOGAI genders if you want to go down the rabbit hole.
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  #48  
Old 07.07.2017, 15:48
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Re: Is gender a spectrum?

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I don't think that makes you less of a woman. Surely you like what you like, regardless of gender and to label you as not 100% female is just as bad as not recognising someone is LBGTWhatever, no?

I don't like getting drunk and having a fight, beating up the missus or raping teens. I really don't think that makes me some sort of demi-man.
I also don't think it makes me any less or more of a woman, either, but my point was to hark back to those painful teenage years where you are trying to fit in AND find an identity at the same time. It can all seem a bit black and white. The female of the species appears to be all about pink frilly stuff, make up and "simply DYING, dah-ling" over shoes. The male of the species is discovering lager and Ford Capris.

I think as you cruise out of your 20s and into your 30s, that's the time when you suddenly think "feck this, it's hard work - yes, I'm female but I prefer to do my femaling in comfy shoes and a baggy t-shirt."
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Old 07.07.2017, 15:55
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Re: Is gender a spectrum?

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This could be up for some interesting debate:


As we understand the mind and the brain better, perhaps a combination of genetic errors and defects cause an individual to oppose the societally defined gender norms as well.
Can it honestly be called an error when the genetic cause affects such a large portion of humanity?

That's seems like calling the Aboriginals (to arbitrarily single out one group) a genetic error.

I prefer variation instead.
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Old 07.07.2017, 15:57
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Re: Is gender a spectrum?

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Can it honestly be called an error when the genetic cause affects such a large portion of humanity?

That's seems like calling the Aboriginals (to arbitrarily single out one group) a genetic error.
Really we would have to redefine or replace the words 'error' or 'defect'. On a simple level one might like to use those terms, but on a grand scheme they are the basis of evolution.


edit: I just used them to as copied words from the previous quote to better show the analogy between gender and sex. I agree that they are not the best words to use.
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Old 07.07.2017, 16:02
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Re: Is gender a spectrum?

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Can it honestly be called an error when the genetic cause affects such a large portion of humanity?

That's seems like calling the Aboriginals (to arbitrarily single out one group) a genetic error.

I prefer variation instead.
Good point. At that level of subtlety there's a good argument that these variations are an evolutionary driver - one of the big tentpoles of the neurodiversity movement is that people thinking differently can be a big driver of change - and that while (for example) the autism spectrum may yield some individuals who are incapable of functioning in society, it also yields many individuals with superb applied skills.

Story time! I personally believe the whole "aspies make the best engineers" trope, as I grew up in a math department, and I think there was one professor in the whole bunch who even approached socially normal. All on the spectrum, I'm pretty sure.

As I am too, it was comfortable. Took many decades before I realized how truly weird they were.
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Old 07.07.2017, 16:07
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Re: Is gender a spectrum?

Truly apologise if I've over-looked any other posts on this thread (have been a bit preoccupied), but I'm assuming it also covers the news of the first Genderless Child born lately:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...rst/452857001/
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Old 07.07.2017, 16:08
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Re: Is gender a spectrum?

Aaaah, the first-world-problem theme in a philosophical disguise. Suggestion to anyone facing difficulty in identifying his gender in two steps 1) look at your genitals - if somethings' hangin' you're male. If nothings' hangin' you're female. 2) if you still insist you are unsure, get out in a non-first-world country and see how they address you at the airport. Sir - you're male. Mam' - you're female.
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Old 07.07.2017, 16:11
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Re: Is gender a spectrum?

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Aaaah, the first-world-problem theme in a philosophical disguise. Suggestion to anyone facing difficulty in identifying his gender in two steps 1) look at your genitals - if somethings' hangin' you're male. If nothings' hangin' you're female. 2) if you still insist you are unsure, get out in a non-first-world country and see how they address you at the airport. Sir - you're male. Mam' - you're female.
That's sex, not gender. Gender is a far more cultural issue. Wiki for reference
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Old 07.07.2017, 16:19
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Re: Is gender a spectrum?

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That's sex, not gender. Gender is a far more cultural issue. Wiki for reference
Rubbish. Any misalignment between sex and gender is a psychological issue. Gay is different. Intersex is just a first-world-bullshit.
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Old 07.07.2017, 16:20
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Re: Is gender a spectrum?

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Truly apologise if I've over-looked any other posts on this thread (have been a bit preoccupied), but I'm assuming it also covers the news of the first Genderless Child born lately:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...rst/452857001/
Actually, the story is fake news.

The child got an insurance card that says no gender, not an id or birth certificate, in fact they are refusing to issue a birth certificate without a specified gender (or sex).

Tom
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Old 07.07.2017, 16:34
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Re: Is gender a spectrum?

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Rubbish. Any misalignment between sex and gender is a psychological issue. Gay is different. Intersex is just a first-world-bullshit.
Let me guess: you also think the sun revolves around the earth :P


That's fine, scientific fact isn't for everyone.
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Old 07.07.2017, 16:41
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Re: Is gender a spectrum?

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Rubbish. Any misalignment between sex and gender is a psychological issue. Gay is different. Intersex is just a first-world-bullshit.
Intersex is a genetic condition, such as this woman's. It covers a whole slew of genetic issues that makes sex determination difficult. In that woman's case, she's XY but I believe androgen insensitive, meaning that her Y chromosome (and internal testes that it caused) was creating androgens, but her body doesn't respond to them. This gives her female sex characteristics with a Y chromosome, but also makes her infertile.

Thus, intersex. This is objective.

Now gender is how your culture tells you that you should behave and present yourself based on your sex. This varies by culture, and many cultures have more than two options.

What is manly here may not be manly in say, Papua New Guinea. This is subjective.

If you're looking for absolutes in culture, you'll have a hard time.

Edit @Tom, your provincial health card is a very common form of government ID in Canada. You're right about the birth certificate, but it is a government ID.

Last edited by Occasional_Canadian; 07.07.2017 at 17:34.
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Old 07.07.2017, 17:02
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Re: Is gender a spectrum?

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Rubbish. Any misalignment between sex and gender is a psychological issue. Gay is different. Intersex is just a first-world-bullshit.
Hrmphh. It's not.

In fact the IAAF (International Amateur Athletics Federation) is considering an overhaul of its rules and testing framework due to intersexual athletes. See the NYT, the Beeb, and many more.
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Old 07.07.2017, 17:09
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Re: Is gender a spectrum?

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And having a genetic error isn't some kind of stigma - most of us do at some level.
All of do, at every level -be it DNA sequence, gene expression, or developmental errors - we should remember that before getting judgemental about individuals who have very real issues because of their particular "errors".
The stroke that nearly killed me was, I found down to a developmental error (atrial-septal defect) that I shared with a large number of similarily "normal" XY males. The chances of being totally error free are miniscule.
A large number of gender issues have a clear biological basis that may be amplified by cultural factors. They are not necessarily"errors" (the evolutionary advantages of having a gay brother?) and even if they are, who cares -just accept people for what they are and yes, why not call it a spectrum.
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