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  #381  
Old 16.08.2017, 16:31
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Re: I hate Illinois Nazis!

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But you talk about art .... we talk about political statues of people who lived not all that long ago and were not loved by all.
So they "give" us - often - these things we really don't want to see.

How about placing "the Egyptian and Greek stuff" in the streets and put the statues into the museum? I'd be all for it .... and those into these statues could go see them in the museums. On my tax-money, no problem
Philosophical question, but is not all art political? And not all art is intended to please. The truth does not always please, and these monuments remind us of things that really existed.

If you remove them on the grounds that they are racist and only racists like them, you are effectively saying that the racist's interpretation of these statues is the only legitimate one.
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  #382  
Old 16.08.2017, 16:32
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Re: I hate Illinois Nazis!

How can one change something if from the very beginning one doesn't admit the wrongs that need to be addressed? There are two kinds of history being taught at the moment, the one of the conquerers (called whitewashed history), and the one of the conquered. Why not tell the truth? Yes, the Europeans kicked butt back then, and yes, they did it in horrid ways because they were after the American land, and yes they did it to people who did not deserve any such treatment. Should the Native Americans celebrate Columbus Day? After all they were decimated, and to this day discriminated against. Should non-whites celebrate the 4th of July? After all, how free is your black son if every single day you don't know if he'll come back home alive?

Anyway, while we are busy debating this, others are busy doing something else.
http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-w...ompany-resists
http://www.disruptj20.org
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  #383  
Old 16.08.2017, 16:39
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Re: I hate Illinois Nazis!

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Philosophical question, but is not all art political? And not all art is intended to please. The truth does not always please, and these monuments remind us of things that really existed.

If you remove them on the grounds that they are racist and only racists like them, you are effectively saying that the racist's interpretation of these statues is the only legitimate one.
No, we say that we'd like celebrating racism, with all its symbols, to be a thing of the past, because we know it isn't. How would you like it if your kid had to go to a school named after someone who abused you and your family for generations? Or that made it acceptable and even legal for others to abuse you? You would know a different truth then, wouldn't you.

Yes, I dare to dream.
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  #384  
Old 16.08.2017, 16:41
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Re: I hate Illinois Nazis!

So are we taking down George Washington next?
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  #385  
Old 16.08.2017, 16:42
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Re: I hate Illinois Nazis!

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How can one change something if from the very beginning one doesn't admit the wrongs that need to be addressed? There are two kinds of history being taught at the moment, the one of the conquerers (called whitewashed history), and the one of the conquered. Why not tell the truth? Yes, the Europeans kicked butt back then, and yes, they did it in horrid ways because they were after the American land, and yes they did it to people who did not deserve any such treatment. Should the Native Americans celebrate Columbus Day? After all they were decimated, and to this day discriminated against. Should non-whites celebrate the 4th of July? After all, how free is your black son if every single day you don't know if he'll come back home alive?
I agree that other people's perspectives on history also deserve to be taken into account. I don't oppose that. In fact I'm all for, for example, Native American historians coming out and making their perspective and their side of the story better known. And why not dedicate a public holiday to some day in history that is important to Native Americans, to something positive about them? I don't see anything wrong with that. In fact I'd welcome it. And why not celebrate Native American history by putting up artwork celebrating their contribution and creating trails and things so people can discover the sites where important events happened and learn more about them.

But there is a big difference between adding stuff to the official and canonical version of history, and erasing things. Obviously if you talk about new topics you need to de-emphasize other topics, as you only have so much time at school to study history. But wht is happening now is not about adding anything but it is about removing something. The concept is thus driven by negativity.
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  #386  
Old 16.08.2017, 16:46
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Re: I hate Illinois Nazis!

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No, we say that we'd like celebrating racism, with all its symbols, to be a thing of the past, because we know it isn't. How would you like it if your kid had to go to a school named after someone who abused you and your family for generations? Or that made it acceptable and even legal for others to abuse you? You would know a different truth then, wouldn't you.

Yes, I dare to dream.
The victors wrote the history books..

“I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races,”

-Abraham Lincoln

Think of how many Lincoln High Schools there must be out there..
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  #387  
Old 16.08.2017, 16:52
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Re: I hate Illinois Nazis!

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I agree that other people's perspectives on history also deserve to be taken into account. I don't oppose that. In fact I'm all for, for example, Native American historians coming out and making their perspective and their side of the story better known. And why not dedicate a public holiday to some day in history that is important to Native Americans? I don't see anything wrong with that. In fact I'd welcome it. And why not celebrate Native American history by putting up artwork celebrating their contribution and creating trails and things so people can discover the sites where important events happened and learn more about them.

But there is a big difference between adding stuff to the official and canonical version of history, and erasing things. Obviously if you talk about new topics you need to de-emphasize other topics, as you only have so much time at school to study history. But wht is happening now is not about adding anything but it is about removing something. The concept is thus driven by negativity.
I disagree that this is what is happening at the moment. I rather think that, as my generation (age-wise) takes over the power, it is the reckoning of things past - it is high time that everybody got included and everybody's say matters equally, and that history got told as it should, in all its ugliness, and with all its present-day ramifications, such as today's very much alive abuse based on one's skin colour, which has got to go.

P.S. I know Lincoln was a racist.
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  #388  
Old 16.08.2017, 16:54
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Re: I hate Illinois Nazis!

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No, we say that we'd like celebrating racism, with all its symbols, to be a thing of the past, because we know it isn't. How would you like it if your kid had to go to a school named after someone who abused you and your family for generations? Or that made it acceptable and even legal for others to abuse you? You would know a different truth then, wouldn't you.

Yes, I dare to dream.
France is named after the Franks, a barbarian people who conquered and ensalved the ancestors of the very people who now live in the country named after them. England is named after the Angles, another nasty bunch of invaders. The list goes on.

But at the end of the day, a name is not a monument. As long as you don't havbe one group imposing their view on the other group, you can name a school as you want. Best is to go for a neutral name so nobody feels they are being suppressed. Name it after a flower or something. I don't think you can confalte that with a monument. There aren't many monuments to people who did nothing of importance.
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  #389  
Old 16.08.2017, 16:55
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Re: I hate Illinois Nazis!

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It doesn't exist any more (or does it?) and if the memorials are to people who fought for a cause now considered un-American (or is it?), what's the harm in removing them?
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no it, doesn't exist anymore. Neither do Egyptian pharaohs, but we won't go razing the pyramids.

What else is anti-american?

What else can we get rid of?



The whole act of getting rid of these things is anti-American, IMO. Change the interpretive signs. Turn them into something else... I like what the Cubans did here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monument_to_the_Victims_of_the_USS_Maine_(Havana)
What I was getting at was slavery being contrary to the constitution and those memorials commemorating the great days of slavery and the fight to retain it. Buildings are demolished all the time and a statue of an individual that may not be of any exceptional artistic value seems comparable to that rather than to the pyramids or other Unesco world heritage sites. Perhaps there should be a campaign to turn Confederate statues into something else, but it's hard to see how they could be both preserved yet deprived of their original commemorative function or given a new commemorative function. To be like the Cuban case, you'd surely have to remove the statue, leave the plinth and change the inscription, so might as well remove the whole thing. Sticking up a rival statue, e.g. of a slave, might look a bit silly and how many public authorities would do that anyway?
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  #390  
Old 16.08.2017, 17:02
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Re: I hate Illinois Nazis!

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I disagree that this is what is happening at the moment. I rather think that, as my generation (age-wise) takes over the power, it is the reckoning of things past
I think this precisely where you're going wrong.

If you see history as a platform of reckoning, there will never be peace, as the next generaion, who will surely again disagree with stuf you did, will again use history to reckon with you.

History should be taught in a way that is as free of contempoarry politics as possible. It is only then that you realize that history is all about same old same old crap. That labels change and people get angry about this and then about that, but at the end of the day anger and hate is bad and often instifgated for a purpose.
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Old 16.08.2017, 17:03
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Re: I hate Illinois Nazis!

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As long as you don't havbe one group imposing their view on the other group, you can name a school as you want. Best is to go for a neutral name so nobody feels they are being suppressed. Name it after a flower or something.
This one?

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  #392  
Old 16.08.2017, 17:10
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Re: I hate Illinois Nazis!

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This one?

No, it's a pentagram, and it was used as a symbol of Christianity. However, the Wiccans took it over, so I'm fine with it.
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  #393  
Old 16.08.2017, 17:17
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Re: I hate Illinois Nazis!

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But there is a big difference between adding stuff to the official and canonical version of history, and erasing things. Obviously if you talk about new topics you need to de-emphasize other topics, as you only have so much time at school to study history. But wht is happening now is not about adding anything but it is about removing something. The concept is thus driven by negativity.
Knowing how you love analogies...

It's like deciding what to do with the wedding album when you get divorced. Some people destroy it. Some keep it but cut their spouse out of the photos. Some grieve over it. Some put it away intact knowing that in the future, they'll be able to look back at it with a fresh perspective. History is full of lessons we should learn, but it shouldn't unnecessarily hinder progress.

What I take issue with is the short-sightedness of some who want to eradicate history and culture. There are idiots who want to ban 'Gone With The Wind' despite the fact that Hattie McDaniel won an Oscar for it, becoming the first black actor to win the award.

However, when you take the flag of a foreign regime, an enemy whose actions led to the deaths of almost half a million of your fellow countrymen, and march that down any main street in America, you deserve every bit of venom that your countrymen spew back at you.
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Old 16.08.2017, 17:22
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Re: I hate Illinois Nazis!

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No, it's a pentagram, and it was used as a symbol of Christianity. However, the Wiccans took it over, so I'm fine with it.
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  #395  
Old 16.08.2017, 17:30
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Re: I hate Illinois Nazis!

Does anyone reckon there'll be a backlash to this?

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Baltimore Quietly Removed All 4 Of Its Confederate Statues Overnight
The city council voted unanimously to rid the city of the monuments.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/...b009141641806b
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  #396  
Old 16.08.2017, 17:32
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Re: I hate Illinois Nazis!

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No, it's a pentagram, and it was used as a symbol of Christianity. However, the Wiccans took it over, so I'm fine with it.
err, my initial thought was actually another name for it, one which isn't maybe 100% PC any more.
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Old 16.08.2017, 17:42
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Re: I hate Illinois Nazis!

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Does anyone reckon there'll be a backlash to this?


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/...b009141641806b
Things are really getting stupid.

Like any other self-respecting Yankee, I am no fan of Johnny-Reb, but this is ridiculous.

Tom
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  #398  
Old 16.08.2017, 17:43
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Re: I hate Illinois Nazis!

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Does anyone reckon there'll be a backlash to this?


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/...b009141641806b
I don't think so. Someone hopes this token will keep people's protests at bay.
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  #399  
Old 16.08.2017, 17:43
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Re: I hate Illinois Nazis!

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However, when you take the flag of a foreign regime, an enemy whose actions led to the deaths of almost half a million of your fellow countrymen, and march that down any main street in America, you deserve every bit of venom that your countrymen spew back at you.
I can think of different responses to this.

I have seen plenty of Mexican flags flying in the US.

Mexico wasn't always the laid back place it is today. For much of its history Mexico was an expansionst and imperialist regime.

How many Americans were killed in the various wars with Mexico?

But symbols only mean what you want them to mean. I'm sure if you talked to somebody with a Mexican flag, they'd tell you their message had nothing to do with that, and weren't glorifying those times.

Now if you look at the history of the confederate flag, it actually saw a resurgence of popularity during WW2 as troops, precisely the ones fighting nazi Germany, would use it. So it has anti-nazi connotations. Why is nobody mentioning that?

You can also Google Hitler's opinions on the Confederacy. They weren't positive.

So the Nazi flag and the confedereate flag are not natural brothers. On the contrary. Those who parade them side by side are total idiots. History, as you see, is more compliacted than it appears.

So why not ask these guys, are you confederates now, or are you nazis, because you cannot be both.
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Old 16.08.2017, 17:46
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Re: I hate Illinois Nazis!

Totally agree, this is getting more and more ridiculous by the day. At this rate Trump will have the States back in another civil war.
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