Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Off-Topic > Off-Topic > International affairs/politics  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #601  
Old 22.08.2017, 22:10
parnell's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Geroldswil
Posts: 513
Groaned at 186 Times in 120 Posts
Thanked 1,767 Times in 872 Posts
parnell has a reputation beyond reputeparnell has a reputation beyond reputeparnell has a reputation beyond reputeparnell has a reputation beyond repute
Re: I hate Illinois Nazis!

Quote:
View Post
Sure, but based on the data that is there and which is not missing, it appears to suggest that blacks kill more whites than vice versa despite the fact that there are significantly less black people, right?
Yes of course but we've established today that math is racist in some members eyes...

Reply With Quote
  #602  
Old 22.08.2017, 22:30
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: USA, former Zurich
Posts: 2,049
Groaned at 14 Times in 14 Posts
Thanked 4,811 Times in 1,660 Posts
BokerTov has a reputation beyond reputeBokerTov has a reputation beyond reputeBokerTov has a reputation beyond reputeBokerTov has a reputation beyond reputeBokerTov has a reputation beyond reputeBokerTov has a reputation beyond repute
Re: I hate Illinois Nazis!

Quote:
View Post
Yes of course but we've established today that math is racist in some members eyes...
Math is not racist, but we are talking about statistics - which is highly subjective, is open to a lot of bias (starting from survey design, how and where the data is collected, etc.) and is normally used to tell whichever side of the story the particular narrator wants to tell.

Citing numbers, or "statistics" by themselves without any context as to the methodology applied to collect the data and the contextual explanation of the results is pretty useless.

Lies, damned lies, and statistics, no?
Reply With Quote
The following 5 users would like to thank BokerTov for this useful post:
  #603  
Old 22.08.2017, 22:40
parnell's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Geroldswil
Posts: 513
Groaned at 186 Times in 120 Posts
Thanked 1,767 Times in 872 Posts
parnell has a reputation beyond reputeparnell has a reputation beyond reputeparnell has a reputation beyond reputeparnell has a reputation beyond repute
Re: I hate Illinois Nazis!

Quote:
View Post
Math is not racist, but we are talking about statistics - which is highly subjective, is open to a lot of bias (starting from survey design, how and where the data is collected, etc.) and is normally used to tell whichever side of the story the particular narrator wants to tell.
No it's not subjective - the collection of data points might be - but have a look at the most recent posts and you'll see basic failings in arithmetic. The entire basis of the industry I work in - insurance - lets the data do the talking as not to implies you misprice the risk - if the same principles were applied to policy making - as Sowell & Friedman advocate then you'd have a much better world with less people massively underemployed listening to Imams or grand dragons ...

Quote:
View Post
Citing numbers, or "statistics" by themselves without any context as to the methodology applied to collect the data and the contextual explanation of the results is pretty useless.
If you've got comments that you'd like to address about the DOJ numbers from 2015 then let's be having you.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank parnell for this useful post:
  #604  
Old 22.08.2017, 23:04
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: USA, former Zurich
Posts: 2,049
Groaned at 14 Times in 14 Posts
Thanked 4,811 Times in 1,660 Posts
BokerTov has a reputation beyond reputeBokerTov has a reputation beyond reputeBokerTov has a reputation beyond reputeBokerTov has a reputation beyond reputeBokerTov has a reputation beyond reputeBokerTov has a reputation beyond repute
Re: I hate Illinois Nazis!

Quote:
View Post
No it's not subjective - the collection of data points might be - but have a look at the most recent posts and you'll see basic failings in arithmetic. The entire basis of the industry I work in - insurance - lets the data do the talking as not to implies you misprice the risk - if the same principles were applied to policy making - as Sowell & Friedman advocate then you'd have a much better world with less people massively underemployed listening to Imams or grand dragons ...

If you've got comments that you'd like to address about the DOJ numbers from 2015 then let's be having you.
Talking about insurance: you collect data that might have inherent bias, try to minimize that bias (the issue of minimizing data bias in your industry is very interesting to me, btw), but then, you still have an inherent bias of the person/people who choose to interpret the results of the algorithms and make decisions on who to insure, and for which rates - no? Sure, you have different layers of decision-making, checks and reviews, etc. but even then, you never completely eliminate the subjectivity I think.

As far as the DOJ numbers that have been posted, my only comments right now is as I said - numbers without context are not informative at all. Before providing any other comments, I'd like to read the original studies rather than the internet memes. Therefore, I'll be doing some reading myself at the next available opportunity. For anyone else who's interested:

Here is the 2010 DOJ analysis (from your post)

This link straight from the horse's mouth, is also very interesting because it provides information about the DOJ methodology, data collection, etc.
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank BokerTov for this useful post:
  #605  
Old 22.08.2017, 23:12
parnell's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Geroldswil
Posts: 513
Groaned at 186 Times in 120 Posts
Thanked 1,767 Times in 872 Posts
parnell has a reputation beyond reputeparnell has a reputation beyond reputeparnell has a reputation beyond reputeparnell has a reputation beyond repute
Re: I hate Illinois Nazis!

Quote:
View Post
Talking about insurance: you collect data that might have inherent bias, try to minimize that bias (the issue of minimizing data bias in your industry is very interesting to me, btw), but then, you still have an inherent bias of the person/people who choose to interpret the results of the algorithms and make decisions on who to insure, and for which rates - no? Sure, you have different layers of decision-making, checks and reviews, etc. but even then, you never completely eliminate the subjectivity.
Not really , there are at least three layers ideally - the data analysts with no skin in the game , the actuaries again have no desire to see rates rise or fall and finally you have the underwriters who take the costing rates and try to see where the market prices are below what the costs suggest (and presumably write profitable business in those segments).

The seperation of those who try to estimate the true statistical value (backend) from the perceived value in the real world (underwriter) is designed to inhibit bias as much as possible.

In a similar way it is entirely possible that you might have certain police force members who for their own reasons arrest or charge black people or white people in a biased fashion but countrywide it's very likely that a huge proportion will diversify out. The numbers you have in the DOJ are so statistically powerful that it's tremendously hard to argue against them.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank parnell for this useful post:
  #606  
Old 22.08.2017, 23:16
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: CH
Posts: 9,525
Groaned at 324 Times in 265 Posts
Thanked 13,796 Times in 7,121 Posts
greenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond repute
Re: I hate Illinois Nazis!

Hmm, it makes you wonder....cui prodest?

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/08/18/us...lle/index.html
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank greenmount for this useful post:
  #607  
Old 22.08.2017, 23:17
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: I hate Illinois Nazis!

And then there's this link, which seems to reflect Parnell's analysis more closely.

http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/v...ry.asp?id=1628
Reply With Quote
The following 8 users would like to thank for this useful post:
  #608  
Old 23.08.2017, 09:18
Chemmie's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Zurich
Posts: 4,108
Groaned at 31 Times in 27 Posts
Thanked 4,894 Times in 2,214 Posts
Chemmie has a reputation beyond reputeChemmie has a reputation beyond reputeChemmie has a reputation beyond reputeChemmie has a reputation beyond reputeChemmie has a reputation beyond reputeChemmie has a reputation beyond repute
Re: I hate Illinois Nazis!

Racism is apparently still rampant: Asian-American announcer was replaced because his name was Robert Lee.


http://www.pacificpundit.com/2017/08...ffending-name/
Reply With Quote
The following 6 users would like to thank Chemmie for this useful post:
  #609  
Old 23.08.2017, 09:25
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: CH
Posts: 9,525
Groaned at 324 Times in 265 Posts
Thanked 13,796 Times in 7,121 Posts
greenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond repute
Re: I hate Illinois Nazis!

Quote:
View Post
Racism is apparently still rampant: Asian-American announcer was replaced because his name was Robert Lee.


http://www.pacificpundit.com/2017/08...ffending-name/
Lol.

You can't make that up. I noticed long time ago that the Western world is not right in their head but this, this just tops it all.

I'm afraid everything is beyond recovery.
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank greenmount for this useful post:
  #610  
Old 23.08.2017, 09:38
MusicChick's Avatar
modified, reprogrammed and doctored²
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: La Cote
Posts: 15,504
Groaned at 314 Times in 222 Posts
Thanked 17,958 Times in 9,320 Posts
MusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond repute
Re: I hate Illinois Nazis!

Quote:
View Post
Racism is apparently still rampant: Asian-American announcer was replaced because his name was Robert Lee.


http://www.pacificpundit.com/2017/08...ffending-name/
I am not really sure. Racism is rampant, or media looking for racism is rampant, or left/right media feeding into identity bs while it is a matter of HR misconduct, or...you name it.

I am actually seeing quite a few positive results of this massive wave of manipulation: people gotta check their sources. The critical thinkinking skill-sets they bought in college might be worth just the political orientation of their school..

It is not a bad situation. More polarization, more evident it is. I think the world will chuck internet and go hiking. They should. While rethinking human value and respect and how accountable everybody has to hold himself.

I am appreciating the diversity of opinions here, tbh. And EF not feeding into the chamber echo chants and hysterical outrage, or just occasionally.
__________________
"L'homme ne peut pas remplacer son coeur avec sa tete, ni sa tete avec ses mains." J.H. Pestalozzi

“The only difference between a rut and a grave is a matter of depth.” S.P. Cadman

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." A. Einstein
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank MusicChick for this useful post:
  #611  
Old 23.08.2017, 09:50
Chemmie's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Zurich
Posts: 4,108
Groaned at 31 Times in 27 Posts
Thanked 4,894 Times in 2,214 Posts
Chemmie has a reputation beyond reputeChemmie has a reputation beyond reputeChemmie has a reputation beyond reputeChemmie has a reputation beyond reputeChemmie has a reputation beyond reputeChemmie has a reputation beyond repute
Re: I hate Illinois Nazis!

Quote:
View Post
I am not really sure. Racism is rampant, or media looking for racism is rampant, or left/right media feeding into identity bs while it is a matter of HR misconduct, or...you name it.

I am actually seeing quite a few positive results of this massive wave of manipulation: people gotta check their sources. The critical thinkinking skill-sets they bought in college might be worth just the political orientation of their school..

It is not a bad situation. More polarization, more evident it is. I think the world will chuck internet and go hiking. They should. While rethinking human value and respect and how accountable everybody has to hold himself.

I am appreciating the diversity of opinions here, tbh. And EF not feeding into the chamber echo chants and hysterical outrage, or just occasionally.

I forgot the /s to show my sarcasm :P


This is the modern society in a nutshell. ESPN is a huge company with many intelligent people running it: This is a modern publicity stunt. This is how you market: Borrowing from the flavour of the month in social activism and bordering on offensive.


Pepsi did a great one earlier this year, and I wouldn't be surprised that the whole Google-firing fiasco also had this intent.


On the whole, racism (and antiracism) have roots deep in an individual's feelings and emotions---exactly what corporations want to access to sell sell sell!
__________________
"You have reached the end of you free trial membership at BenjaminFranklinQuotes.com" -Benjamin Franklin
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Chemmie for this useful post:
  #612  
Old 23.08.2017, 10:05
MusicChick's Avatar
modified, reprogrammed and doctored²
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: La Cote
Posts: 15,504
Groaned at 314 Times in 222 Posts
Thanked 17,958 Times in 9,320 Posts
MusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond repute
Re: I hate Illinois Nazis!

Quote:
View Post
I forgot the /s to show my sarcasm :P


This is the modern society in a nutshell. ESPN is a huge company with many intelligent people running it: This is a modern publicity stunt. This is how you market: Borrowing from the flavour of the month in social activism and bordering on offensive.


Pepsi did a great one earlier this year, and I wouldn't be surprised that the whole Google-firing fiasco also had this intent.


On the whole, racism (and antiracism) have roots deep in an individual's feelings and emotions---exactly what corporations want to access to sell sell sell!
Oh yeah, I know how you meant it.

People buy, though, so we shouldn't blame the media/Pepsi/Google/Espn...nor academia, same consumer market.

Identity is a big market, don't we all buy special puzzle pieces to create something different than the being right next to us. It is funny. Other cultures compete in sameness, same market, though. Scepticism where I am from gets old, too, ugh.

That reminds me, the whole "forget the old ways of critical thinking, buy the new ways" is probably being marketed as we speak. It won't have identity written on it, that fad is cliche. I wonder what it will be. Renegate? Partisan..Walden of sorts. Lol. Louis and Clark. Anti-online, wholesome on the outside and robotic on the inside. Hypocricy redefined.
__________________
"L'homme ne peut pas remplacer son coeur avec sa tete, ni sa tete avec ses mains." J.H. Pestalozzi

“The only difference between a rut and a grave is a matter of depth.” S.P. Cadman

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." A. Einstein
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank MusicChick for this useful post:
  #613  
Old 23.08.2017, 18:07
3Wishes's Avatar
Moderately Amused
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Bern area
Posts: 10,686
Groaned at 77 Times in 74 Posts
Thanked 17,720 Times in 7,956 Posts
3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute
Re: I hate Illinois Nazis!

Quote:
View Post
...I am actually seeing quite a few positive results of this massive wave of manipulation: people gotta check their sources. The critical thinkinking skill-sets they bought in college might be worth just the political orientation of their school...
Unfortunately if my FB feed is anything to go by, the majority of people are only checking sources that confirm their preconceived notions, and disregarding anything else as fake news. Doesn't matter if the friend happens to be more on the left or the right of the political spectrum either - critical thinking skill sets have been tossed out the window.
Reply With Quote
The following 5 users would like to thank 3Wishes for this useful post:
  #614  
Old 23.08.2017, 18:57
Blueangel's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Küsnacht, Switzerland
Posts: 3,888
Groaned at 105 Times in 96 Posts
Thanked 10,610 Times in 4,679 Posts
Blueangel has a reputation beyond reputeBlueangel has a reputation beyond reputeBlueangel has a reputation beyond reputeBlueangel has a reputation beyond reputeBlueangel has a reputation beyond reputeBlueangel has a reputation beyond repute
Re: I hate Illinois Nazis!

There are news sources that are above and beyond recrimination, no matter what your personal beliefs are. One thing I have in common with Trump, is an abiding respect for Reuters. They don't publish piffle.

For many years, I've had their travel alerts set up on my phone because they're faster, more accurate and more factual than their competitors. Last week, I was woken by successive alerts from Reuters regarding the shoot out in Cambrils. That's very rare for them, so I sit up and take notice.

Bearing in mind that Trump will give an interview to Reuters over anyone else, including Fox, he must be stung by some of today's articles on their site, and I bet he'll act upon them.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Blueangel for this useful post:
  #615  
Old 23.08.2017, 21:15
MusicChick's Avatar
modified, reprogrammed and doctored²
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: La Cote
Posts: 15,504
Groaned at 314 Times in 222 Posts
Thanked 17,958 Times in 9,320 Posts
MusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond repute
Re: I hate Illinois Nazis!

Quote:
View Post
Unfortunately if my FB feed is anything to go by, the majority of people are only checking sources that confirm their preconceived notions..
Indeed. People are responsible for the quality of info they choose, just like any other products. I would not blame media, they sell because people keep buying...Whatever FB sells/trades with isn't attractive to me, either, not enough to sign up.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank MusicChick for this useful post:
  #616  
Old 23.08.2017, 21:39
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: I hate Illinois Nazis!

Quote:
View Post
Unfortunately if my FB feed is anything to go by, the majority of people are only checking sources that confirm their preconceived notions, and disregarding anything else as fake news. Doesn't matter if the friend happens to be more on the left or the right of the political spectrum either - critical thinking skill sets have been tossed out the window.
Confirmation bias. Again and again.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank for this useful post:
  #617  
Old 24.08.2017, 00:35
Blueangel's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Küsnacht, Switzerland
Posts: 3,888
Groaned at 105 Times in 96 Posts
Thanked 10,610 Times in 4,679 Posts
Blueangel has a reputation beyond reputeBlueangel has a reputation beyond reputeBlueangel has a reputation beyond reputeBlueangel has a reputation beyond reputeBlueangel has a reputation beyond reputeBlueangel has a reputation beyond repute
Re: I hate Illinois Nazis!

Marvellous!

Quote:
Ku Klux Klan leader warns there could be more violence in US In an exclusive interview with Sky, Thomas Robb says there will be more violence if "politicians only condemn white nationalists".
http://news.sky.com/story/ku-klux-kl...in-us-11002205
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Blueangel for this useful post:
  #618  
Old 24.08.2017, 11:08
esto's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: CHE
Posts: 1,373
Groaned at 77 Times in 59 Posts
Thanked 3,225 Times in 1,406 Posts
esto has a reputation beyond reputeesto has a reputation beyond reputeesto has a reputation beyond reputeesto has a reputation beyond reputeesto has a reputation beyond repute
Re: I hate Illinois Nazis!

This is kind of a microcosm of the whole protest/liberal-media:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nati...icle-1.3437507

News Headline "Car Rams Protesters". Sounds horrible right?
Read the rest of the story...they were protesting the police shooting a transgender person who attacked someone else with a knife. The car was trying to pass the protest, when protesters surrounded the car and started to attack it, so the driver drove forward to escape. But yea, run with the headline victimizing the protesters
Reply With Quote
  #619  
Old 24.08.2017, 12:23
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: I hate Illinois Nazis!

Quote:
View Post
This is kind of a microcosm of the whole protest/liberal-media:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nati...icle-1.3437507

News Headline "Car Rams Protesters". Sounds horrible right?
Read the rest of the story...they were protesting the police shooting a transgender person who attacked someone else with a knife. The car was trying to pass the protest, when protesters surrounded the car and started to attack it, so the driver drove forward to escape. But yea, run with the headline victimizing the protesters

Can you show a less inflammatory headline from a conservative media source? The problem is that media, regardless of leaning tends to inflame with headlines and lead paragraphs designed to draw readers and sell papers. Economics, not politics.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank for this useful post:
  #620  
Old 24.08.2017, 12:46
MusicChick's Avatar
modified, reprogrammed and doctored²
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: La Cote
Posts: 15,504
Groaned at 314 Times in 222 Posts
Thanked 17,958 Times in 9,320 Posts
MusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond repute
Re: I hate Illinois Nazis!

Quote:
Confirmation bias. Again and again.
Absolutely. And it has been long known. Glad it seems to be clear what motivates people when picking their "arguments" while using them solely to assign blame.

The min somebody will actually want to change status quo and construct something, even confirmation bias will be irrelevant. Some creates obstacles, others try to construct. Some level of protectionism is always necessary - it is a shame that people are so busy assigning blame that they cannot even agree on the level of protection for the place they need to construct. It is the same offline and online.

Media just do what they want to do primarily - sell. The only way to have a control over that is to not buy, pick your sources wisely and not try to blame others for one's poor choice of info.
__________________
"L'homme ne peut pas remplacer son coeur avec sa tete, ni sa tete avec ses mains." J.H. Pestalozzi

“The only difference between a rut and a grave is a matter of depth.” S.P. Cadman

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." A. Einstein
Reply With Quote
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Nazis in Switzerland Guest Swiss politics/news 192 29.08.2017 13:43
Oh 2048...I love/hate to hate/love you. Ttamasle Daily life 4 09.05.2014 18:07
Illinois becomes 20th state to legalize medical pot. California Dreamer International affairs/politics 1 03.08.2013 17:03
hey from Illinois d-dee Introductions 15 22.03.2013 16:22
I Hate This, I Hate That... J.L-P Complaints corner 38 18.03.2011 01:22


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 09:19.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0