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  #41  
Old 18.08.2017, 10:59
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Re: Barcelona: Van rams into crowd

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I'm implying that this morning the difference between the ideology of Islam and the ideology of fascism doesn't seem as great as I'd previously thought.
There never was and never will be any difference. racism, islamism, facism, etc. are all "ideologies" for the populace with a very low IQ that needs someone else to hate in order to justify its own miserable life. btw, applied to any religion as well, to a lower degree, as religions don't teach hate explicitly, but implicitly (THEY are different and uneducated, YOU are special)
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Old 18.08.2017, 11:00
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Re: Barcelona: Van rams into crowd

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There never was and never will be any difference. racism, islamism, facism, etc. are all "ideologies" for the populace with a very low IQ that needs someone else to hate in order to justify its own miserable life. btw, applied to any religion as well, to a lower degree, as religions don't teach hate explicitly, but implicitly (THEY are different and uneducated, YOU are special)
Christianity teaches us that we are wretched and weak.

I can't speak for other religions.
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  #43  
Old 18.08.2017, 11:02
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Re: Barcelona: Van rams into crowd

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I'm implying that this morning the difference between the ideology of Islam and the ideology of fascism doesn't seem as great as I'd previously thought.

I am allowed to review my opinions of things, if it's alright with you, no?
I never questioned your right to review your opinion of anything (methinks the lady doth protest too much), I was just clarifying if your post meant what I thought it did.

Anyway, Islam has long being compared with fascism by some theologians and historians etc, and at the hard line is basically a totalitarian idealogy. It is not, however, a hate group. Not yet, anyway.
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  #44  
Old 18.08.2017, 11:08
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Re: Barcelona: Van rams into crowd

Horrible things happen every day in different parts of the world, the flag waving thing and all that collective and selective sympathy many people want to subscribe to, are (to me) mostly futile. If it happens in Kandahar we don't even notice.
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  #45  
Old 18.08.2017, 11:09
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Re: Barcelona: Van rams into crowd

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I never questioned your right to review your opinion of anything (methinks the lady doth protest too much), I was just clarifying if your post meant what I thought it did.
I don't know what I think. I'm beginning to question some long-held beliefs and opinions in light of recent events. As Loz1983 observed, the proximity of the two incidents - and our reactions to them - give us a rare opportunity to compare them.

It's a process - but judging from FCbarca's response, I shouldn't even be thinking about it.

Interesting.
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Old 18.08.2017, 11:18
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Re: Barcelona: Van rams into crowd

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Christianity teaches us that we are wretched and weak.

I can't speak for other religions.
WHICH christianity? There are at least 3 flavors with certain differences. Nevertheless, they all teach the "revelation" as if as a christian you have some special knowledge which the other poor souls don't have. Its sad and shocking that in the 21st century people are saying Santa Claus doesn't exist, but god..sure, yes, he exists
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Old 18.08.2017, 11:20
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Re: Barcelona: Van rams into crowd

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WHICH christianity? There are at least 3 flavors with certain differences. Nevertheless, they all teach the "revelation" as if as a christian you have some special knowledge which the other poor souls don't have. Its sad and shocking that in the 21st century people are saying Santa Claus doesn't exist, but god..sure, yes, he exists
The only "special knowledge" we have comes from a book easily purchased from any bookshop in Europe.

Hardly an arcane and exclusive mystery.
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Old 18.08.2017, 11:25
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Re: Barcelona: Van rams into crowd

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The only "special knowledge" we have comes from a book easily purchased from any bookshop in Europe.

Hardly an arcane and exclusive mystery.
revelation, the sacred mysteries (trinity, virgin birth, resurrection) are all "special" knowledge and if you "know it" you are different from someone else who doesn't "know" it. in other words, believing in bullshit makes you special vs. someone who doesn't believe in that bullshit. I firmly stand on the atheist side.
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Old 18.08.2017, 11:31
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Re: Barcelona: Van rams into crowd

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If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...
Would you blame all white Americans for the actions of the neo nazis? If not, why not? After all the neo nazis are a product of their society to the same extent as ISIS are a product of Islamic society.
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Old 18.08.2017, 11:56
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Re: Barcelona: Van rams into crowd

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revelation, the sacred mysteries (trinity, virgin birth, resurrection) are all "special" knowledge and if you "know it" you are different from someone else who doesn't "know" it. in other words, believing in bullshit makes you special vs. someone who doesn't believe in that bullshit. I firmly stand on the atheist side.
Any group that demands membership or sets rules in order to be able to at least call oneself one of them is a negative thing in my mind. May that be church, type of religion, political parties .... what ever.

Calling other people's thoughts and opinions BS is not the speech of an independent person. (The bible is a very interesting book, btw., do you "believe" in every book you read or are you able to read a book for being a book?)

<<I firmly stand on the atheist side>> oh dear, the ones who pretend to be the freest spirits are a group and build a side?

I disagree with a lot of people and I'm the kind who speaks up too - more often than desired by others. And loads of people disagree with me and I'd roughly say in 90% of their objections there is something intersting for me to ponder.
It's different on each subject. Therefore I have not side, can not call myself any names (Moslem, Christian, atheist, left, right ....) only ...... curley.

It would sure help if the categorizing would end. Yet it seems to be a human urge, which is growing sky high again these days.
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  #51  
Old 18.08.2017, 11:58
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Re: Barcelona: Van rams into crowd

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I don't know what I think. I'm beginning to question some long-held beliefs and opinions in light of recent events. As Loz1983 observed, the proximity of the two incidents - and our reactions to them - give us a rare opportunity to compare them.

It's a process - but judging from FCbarca's response, I shouldn't even be thinking about it.

Interesting.
I think Islam is by far the most backwards and destructive of all the worlds belief systems and idealogies in today's society when you take the sheer scale of it (number of believers, sexism and repressison, attacks carried out in its name etc) into account.

Logically speaking though you can't really seek to ban or suppress it (other than the violent extremist groups) as a whole in Western society without serious ramifications, at least not at this age. We can only hope that with time and patience it fizzles and pops to become the benign, increasingly tolerant and unintrusive religion that Christianity is fast becoming.
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Old 18.08.2017, 12:01
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Re: Barcelona: Van rams into crowd

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I think Islam is by far the most backwards and destructive of all the worlds belief systems and idealogies in today's society when you take the sheer scale of it (number of believers, sexism and repressison, attacks carried out in its name etc) into account.

Logically speaking though you can't really seek to ban or suppress it (other than the violent extremist groups) as a whole in Western society without serious ramifications, at least not at this age. We can only hope that with time and patience it fizzles and pops to become the benign, increasingly tolerant and unintrusive religion that Christianity is fast becoming.
I think you are being a bit harsh here.
Religion is man-made. As with all things man-made, inherently fallible.
Most religions, at one point or the other have caused these horrible incidents.

Guns/Ideologies/sects/clans/races/wars...don't kill people, people kill people. It makes me sad to see and hear what we do to each other in the name of one thing or the other. Or even worse, sometimes for no sensible reason.

Eventually, such an environment leads to the opinion shifting to those who really want/say/pretend to be doing something about it. More often than not, then tend to be very right-wing. Whether that's sensible, far-fetched, myopic is a very tough question to answer. As with anything, there is opposition, and eventually someone does something horrible like what happened.

And the wheels on the bus go round and round...
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  #53  
Old 18.08.2017, 12:13
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Re: Barcelona: Van rams into crowd

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Nothing like perpetuating ignorance in the aftermath, well in Dougal - world certainly could use more racists & xenophobes
DB isn't racist, xenophobic or ignorant. If anything, events such as this only serve to show how our thinking can become clouded, because we're trying to rationalise the irrational. As an atheist, I wish we could all drop organised religion and just be people.

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If it happens in Kandahar we don't even notice.
Speak for yourself.
Until several months ago, I had a friend and former colleague working in Kandahar. Luckily, he's now working in NYC, so I don't flinch anymore when I see news from Kandahar.

That's a lot of the impact of these attacks. We know the locations. Some of us know the locations like the back of our hands. I'm angry every time it's London because I know the place and have people there. I'm angry that Las Ramblas has been hit because I know the place, but the only person I know there wouldn't have been in the area. But when Manchester was hit, the red mist descended. I was shocked at the pure rage I felt. I was effing livid that a friend's wife marked herself as 'safe' on facebook when she lives 20 miles away. I still don't ever want to speak to her again.

These attacks bring out the best and worst in us. We have to recognise that, and whilst we can't rationalise the event, we can rationalise our response to it.
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Old 18.08.2017, 12:46
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Re: Barcelona: Van rams into crowd

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I'm implying that this morning the difference between the ideology of Islam and the ideology of fascism doesn't seem as great as I'd previously thought.
Is DB an Islamophobe now?
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Old 18.08.2017, 12:47
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Re: Barcelona: Van rams into crowd

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Speak for yourself.
Agree with most of your post but this remark is rather funny considering what you just wrote.

Anyways, with all respect, I think you are a bit too harsh with that friend of yours. People can write silly things on Facebook, especially in situations like this.

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But when Manchester was hit, the red mist descended. I was shocked at the pure rage I felt. I was effing livid that a friend's wife marked herself as 'safe' on facebook when she lives 20 miles away. I still don't ever want to speak to her again.
.
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Old 18.08.2017, 12:58
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Re: Barcelona: Van rams into crowd

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(The bible is a very interesting book, btw., do you "believe" in every book you read or are you able to read a book for being a book?)
I've made the effort to actually read both the old and new testament. found it hard to read, ridiculous and full of crap. The only exception was probably Ecclesiastes which actually has some decent philosophical insights which i find myself re-reading every once in a while (we actually have a copy of the bible at home)

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It would sure help if the categorizing would end. Yet it seems to be a human urge, which is growing sky high again these days.
Agree completely. categorizing also seems to be feeding on itself and further pushing groups into identifying themselves in terms of belonging. Which then further "proves" the stereotype and the vicious circle just accelerates.
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Old 18.08.2017, 13:07
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Re: Barcelona: Van rams into crowd

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Anyways, with all respect, I think you are a bit too harsh with that friend of yours. People can write silly things on Facebook, especially in situations like this.
Not at all.
I've been away for 4yrs so have largely shrugged off other friends' opinions of her behaviour. That post and her behaviour since have only confirmed what I was being told much closer friends.
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Old 18.08.2017, 13:07
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Re: Barcelona: Van rams into crowd

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But when Manchester was hit, the red mist descended. I was shocked at the pure rage I felt. I was effing livid that a friend's wife marked herself as 'safe' on facebook when she lives 20 miles away. I still don't ever want to speak to her again.
Blue Angel, this confuses me. Perhaps she was meant to have gone to that concert? Perhaps she has friends / family in other countries who only know she lives "near" Manchester? There could be a number of reasons for her updating her status to safe. Maybe ask her, instead of harboring the rage?
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Old 18.08.2017, 13:16
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Re: Barcelona: Van rams into crowd

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Agree completely. categorizing also seems to be feeding on itself and further pushing groups into identifying themselves in terms of belonging. Which then further "proves" the stereotype and the vicious circle just accelerates.
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racism, islamism, facism, etc. are all "ideologies" for the populace with a very low IQ that needs someone else to hate in order to justify its own miserable life. btw, applied to any religion as well, to a lower degree, as religions don't teach hate explicitly, but implicitly (THEY are different and uneducated, YOU are special)
no comment
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Old 18.08.2017, 13:57
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Re: Barcelona: Van rams into crowd

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I think you are being a bit harsh here.
Religion is man-made. As with all things man-made, inherently fallible.
Most religions, at one point or the other have caused these horrible incidents.

Guns/Ideologies/sects/clans/races/wars...don't kill people, people kill people. It makes me sad to see and hear what we do to each other in the name of one thing or the other. Or even worse, sometimes for no sensible reason.
Harsh? I think it's pretty clear what I meant. Islam is in my view by far the most invasive and aggressive religion we have in the world today. As for your argument about "people kill people" (yawn, that old chestnut), I think it is obvious that regardless of humanity's innate capacity for violence, certain ideologies which encourage fanaticism will drive people towards aggressive and violent acts. All we have to do is look at almost any ruling Islamic theocracy to see what kind of dark ages behaviour Islam encourages in extraordinarily large numbers of human beings within even the general populace.

Would the same people do the same things in the 21st century if Islam had never been invented? We can only engage in pointless speculation until the cows come home, but I highly doubt it, at least not in the same way for the same reasons, and ultimately we can only look at what people are doing now in the world and the reasons for which they claim to do them.
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