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  #201  
Old 02.10.2017, 18:06
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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On of the things I do not like of my country(TR) is that the state thinks that the people exist only to serve the state. I liked Europe because of the opposite. The state is there to serve people or at least it is mutual.

What happened last weekend in Catalonia or what happened in Germany during G20 is really concerning and I know/hope that this is not really how Europe will be in the future.
It's even "worse": The people ARE the state.

Those in the governement are just representatives to do the day-to-day business (the bits that don't need - to take Switzerland as an example - us to crawl out of bed on Sundays and decide on). For some strange reason in some countries they seem to forget that more often than not.

PS: By the way, people tend to forget that too. Whenever someone tells me "the state should pay for this, that and the other" I ask back: "And who is the state, you're sure you want that?"
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  #202  
Old 02.10.2017, 18:16
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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On of the things I do not like of my country(TR) is that the state thinks that the people exist only to serve the state. I liked Europe because of the opposite. The state is there to serve people or at least it is mutual.

What happened last weekend in Catalonia or what happened in Germany during G20 is really concerning and I know/hope that this is not really how Europe will be in the future.
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  #203  
Old 02.10.2017, 18:51
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

Not shocked at all. Exactly as expected.

It looks to me like the EU needs a mechanism whereby if a member state decides to split into two states, both can stay within the EU. That's if the EU supports self-determination.
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  #204  
Old 02.10.2017, 19:14
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41463719

Catalan medical officials said 844 people had been hurt in clashes, including 33 police. The majority had minor injuries or had suffered from anxiety attacks.

So, not exactly peaceful was it? http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41460037

Yes, ok, that's not so little amount of injuries.
What I meant is not ALL of these alleged victims suffered from the treatment of "Robocopo". Surely numerous also provoked, got hurt running, got stones, etc...

My point was the media were trying to show "serious police beatings" everywhere. While I'm not trying to diminish the importance of these acts, there were certainly less in intensity and more shared responsibilities than the one displayed.

And again, i'm not trying to defend the police or the authorities who gave some orders, I'm very familiar with these events of "masses" and among these alleged innocent victims, there were certainly numerous war mongers.

So the clash occurred, that's a fact. I wish media were a little bit more transparent and less engaged, by simply adding more honesty in the pictures and comments displayed, to avoid manipulating the public opinion.
For example, on top of the numerous pictures about that guy with crimson hood, explain what occurred before/during/after the picture, as well as share the duration of the event itself, and specify they are several views of the very same event.

Robocopo intensively beating/fighting with one hoodie guy is one thing, Robocopos intensively beating/fighting with several of them is an entirely different thing.
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  #205  
Old 02.10.2017, 20:52
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote



Starting at 0:52

I suppose I do not need to remind you what the courts had ruled.
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  #206  
Old 02.10.2017, 20:56
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

Dead link...

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Starting at 0:52

I suppose I do not need to remind you what the courts had ruled.
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  #207  
Old 02.10.2017, 21:04
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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Dead link...
Hopefully fixed now. I am not sure I am able to edit the original one
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  #208  
Old 02.10.2017, 21:19
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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My point was the media were trying to show "serious police beatings" everywhere. While I'm not trying to diminish the importance of these acts, there were certainly less in intensity and more shared responsibilities than the one displayed.
That was the goal of the Spanish government in clearing the air space around Barcelona preventing International reporting from the air & capturing what they intended to do - that part is shameful to try and whitewash, they had every intention to dole out violence
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  #209  
Old 02.10.2017, 22:34
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

the referendum was declared illegal. ok.

can anybody explain me how voting for an illegal referendum could be illegal? which law would you break?
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  #210  
Old 02.10.2017, 22:44
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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the referendum was declared illegal. ok.

can anybody explain me how voting for an illegal referendum could be illegal? which law would you break?
Yes, the pedagogic team it's on his way. They must be by your door now, to explain you the law.

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  #211  
Old 02.10.2017, 23:46
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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the referendum was declared illegal. ok.

can anybody explain me how voting for an illegal referendum could be illegal? which law would you break?
This puzzles me as well, but it depends on what the Spanish legal code says.

For example, if it says. "It is a crime for anyone other than parliament to attempt to change the constitution", then those voting for independence would be committing a criminal act.Those voting against it would be accessories before the fact.

Participating in secession is, on the face of it, automatically party to insurrection/rebellion/treason.

Spanish government announces plan to balls this up even more.
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  #212  
Old 03.10.2017, 08:31
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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the referendum was declared illegal. ok.

can anybody explain me how voting for an illegal referendum could be illegal? which law would you break?
You can try to play with words as much as you like, but you will not find any law that supports engaging in an illegal activity. Participating in the organization of the referendum was forbidden by the courts, and obstructing the police when they have a court order is a criminal offense pretty much everywhere.
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  #213  
Old 03.10.2017, 09:49
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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...Participating in the organization of the referendum was forbidden by the courts.
- Courts don't make laws in civil code countries.
- Spain is a civil law country.
- What law was used to issue a court order?

At the end of the day, Spanish paramilitary police fired rubber bullets at *voters* exercising a right to *vote*
Illegal or not, what actual threat is there to the Spanish state?

Oh yeah, the richest province that bankrolls the rest of the country, provides cash for politicians largesse...
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  #214  
Old 03.10.2017, 09:55
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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It's even "worse": The people ARE the state.
This only applies to democracies, Spain is a monarchy. A parliamentary monarchy so it has demoratic elements but still a monarchy. Laws aren't worth the paper they're written on if the Monarch refuses to sign them into effect.
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Not shocked at all. Exactly as expected.

It looks to me like the EU needs a mechanism whereby if a member state decides to split into two states, both can stay within the EU. That's if the EU supports self-determination.
There can be only one legal successor ("Rechtsnachfolger") state so no particular mechanism necessary.

Last edited by Urs Max; 03.10.2017 at 10:10.
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  #215  
Old 03.10.2017, 10:07
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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This puzzles me as well, but it depends on what the Spanish legal code says.
Ok I checked out of intellectual curiosity:
In France, the police would have legal basis for "disruption of public safety", especially the "Atteinte a l'ordre public collective" (group offence against public safety), which includes riots, unauthorised demonstrations, and even crowd.

The sanctions for crowd is up to 1 year jail and 15000 euros fine.

I don't know in Spain, I can imagine it's similar.
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Old 03.10.2017, 10:10
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

The Spanish police have always been violent. The govt as well
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You can try to play with words as much as you like, but you will not find any law that supports engaging in an illegal activity. Participating in the organization of the referendum was forbidden by the courts, and obstructing the police when they have a court order is a criminal offense pretty much everywhere.
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Old 03.10.2017, 10:34
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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the referendum was declared illegal. ok.

can anybody explain me how voting for an illegal referendum could be illegal? which law would you break?
I'm not sure the voting by the individuals itself was illegal but holding the vote was. That makes it clear that detaining the organisers may be appropriate action. Also, illegality mandates confiscating the means to hold the vote including the voting slips and the ballot boxes.

Blocking the police from accessing and confiscating the ballot boxes in all likelihood is illegal (it definitely would be in CH, Widerstand gegen die Staatsgewalt, obstruction of the police). This typically includes passive resistance such as those sitting and standing in front of the doors, on the stairs, etc.

I get the impression that police didn't start out with beating and detaining people. Initially they simply shoved people off and pulled them out of the way. Force wasn't used until after that had failed.
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  #218  
Old 03.10.2017, 10:58
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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I was in Istanbul during GEZI protests. I experienced the polices chases and breathing the pepper gas. I have seen people getting hit by canisters.

So I am neither a keyboard warrior nor a naive person. Ideologist,maybe but at least I know what it is like to fight for your principles.

I guess it is easy for you to leave in Switzerland and defend despotism in the internet.
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  #219  
Old 03.10.2017, 11:30
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

Written by a "bunch of dudes", more than 200 years ago:

That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.
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Old 03.10.2017, 12:18
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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Written by a "bunch of dudes", more than 200 years ago:

That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.
And the country they formed is now well known for being non-violent, rational and reasonable.
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