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  #221  
Old 03.10.2017, 11:54
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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I was in Istanbul during GEZI protests. I experienced the polices chases and breathing the pepper gas. I have seen people getting hit by canisters.

So I am neither a keyboard warrior nor a naive person. Ideologist,maybe but at least I know what it is like to fight for your principles.

I guess it is easy for you to leave in Switzerland and defend despotism in the internet.
The only problem with that is, Spain/Catalonia and Turkey/Gezi don't compare at all. What's next, Godwin? Or "just" Maidan?

Last edited by Urs Max; 03.10.2017 at 12:05.
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  #222  
Old 03.10.2017, 12:43
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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The only problem with that is, Spain/Catalonia and Turkey/Gezi don't compare at all. What's next, Godwin? Or "just" Maidan?
Dark Blue was responding to the suggestion that s/he is naive.

The parallels or none between Turkey and Catalonia are irrelevant. What matters is that Dark Blue has personal experience of being at the shitty end of the stick wielded by the state against the people.
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  #223  
Old 03.10.2017, 13:48
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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Dark Blue was responding to the suggestion that s/he is naive.

The parallels or none between Turkey and Catalonia are irrelevant. What matters is that Dark Blue has personal experience of being at the shitty end of the stick wielded by the state against the people.
So...dark blue refers to the bruises' color?
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  #224  
Old 03.10.2017, 13:53
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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So...dark blue refers to the bruises' color?
could have been but not really, it is my love of the deep waters.
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  #225  
Old 03.10.2017, 14:03
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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Dark Blue was responding to the suggestion that s/he is naive.

The parallels or none between Turkey and Catalonia are irrelevant. What matters is that Dark Blue has personal experience of being at the shitty end of the stick wielded by the state against the people.
Hadn't realised (perhaps obviously by now), thanks.

As for the shitty end of the police stick, s/he's not the only one. Not really relevant as well though.
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  #226  
Old 03.10.2017, 14:13
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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Hadn't realised (perhaps obviously by now), thanks.

As for the shitty end of the police stick, s/he's not the only one. Not really relevant as well though.
it wasn't posted because it was relevant but because I was called out being naive, that's all.

anyways, back to to topic.
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  #227  
Old 03.10.2017, 14:19
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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I'm not sure the voting by the individuals itself was illegal but holding the vote was. That makes it clear that detaining the organisers may be appropriate action. Also, illegality mandates confiscating the means to hold the vote including the voting slips and the ballot boxes.
It is not the job of the police top fulfil every whim of the ruling politicians.

The police are there first and foremost to ensure public safety. You get demonstartions and marches all the time where people demand things and shout things that are clearly unacceptable. But the police allow that to happen and only intervene when somebody is actually threatened.

It is up to the courts to decide whether those who said illegal things need to be sanctioned.

People putting votes in ballot boxes, however absurd or illegal the proposition, is not in itself dangerous. All it takes is a judge to strike the vote down as illegal or void. The actions of the police are thus entirely unnecessary and are only to be understood as an attempt at intimidation.

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Blocking the police from accessing and confiscating the ballot boxes in all likelihood is illegal (it definitely would be in CH, Widerstand gegen die Staatsgewalt, obstruction of the police). This typically includes passive resistance such as those sitting and standing in front of the doors, on the stairs, etc.
However, police seizing ballot boxes is also illegal. Police may only seize things that are either illegal in nature (guns, drugs etc) or for the purpose of gathering evidence (for example the computer of a person suspected of doing illegal things). I am unaware that there is a law that it is illegal to posess a box with bits of paper in it, or of any way that such a box is immediately dangerous.

And if the police genuinely beleived the ballot was illegal and void, then the ballot boxes were legally speaking no more than that. Seizing them with violence was therefore completely unnecessary.

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I get the impression that police didn't start out with beating and detaining people. Initially they simply shoved people off and pulled them out of the way. Force wasn't used until after that had failed.
During an intervention, and especially if there is escalation, police always need to be aware whether the proportionaility of their actions is still given. Police chiefs need to assume responsibility if they failed to respond proportionately.
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  #228  
Old 03.10.2017, 15:47
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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However, police seizing ballot boxes is also illegal. Police may only seize things that are either illegal in nature (guns, drugs etc) or for the purpose of gathering evidence (for example the computer of a person suspected of doing illegal things). I am unaware that there is a law that it is illegal to posess a box with bits of paper in it, or of any way that such a box is immediately dangerous.
Why would the police not be allowed to seize objects that serve no other purpose at that moment than to be used to commit a crime, wether that be a car, a gun, a screwdriver or a box?
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  #229  
Old 03.10.2017, 15:58
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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Why would the police not be allowed to seize objects that serve no other purpose at that moment than to be used to commit a crime, wether that be a car, a gun, a screwdriver or a box?
Because, simply speaking, the police are there to guard the peace. That is their prime function.

Preventing crime may be one element of guarding the peace, but only as far as the crime threatens the peace. Otherwise there are other ways to prevent that crime.

Read Terry Practchett.
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  #230  
Old 03.10.2017, 16:07
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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Because, simply speaking, the police are there to guard the peace. That is their prime function.

Preventing crime may be one element of guarding the peace, but only as far as the crime threatens the peace. Otherwise there are other ways to prevent that crime.

Read Terry Practchett.
I don't have to read Terry Pratchett to know that a primary task of the police is to prevent crimes from happening. Given that this crime was happening at that moment, and that those boxes were essential to commit the crime and served no other purpose I ask one simple question:

Which law did they break by confiscating these boxes?

I'd prefer a clear and straight answer.
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  #231  
Old 03.10.2017, 16:14
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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I don't have to read Terry Pratchett to know that a primary task of the police is to prevent crimes from happening. Given that this crime was happening at that moment, and that those boxes were essential to commit the crime and served no other purpose I ask one simple question:

What law did they break by confiscating these boxes?

I'd prefer a clear and straight answer.
Where did I say the police were breaking a law?

I'd prefer a clear and straight answer. But I know you haven't got one.

What I did said was that the police response was not proportionate.

That is a totally different thing.

People don't generally get hurt as a result of dropping pieces of paper into boxes.

But the police hurt people to stop them doing it. The counter measure was therefore far severer than the original problem. There was no proportionailty between crime and remedy.

Any negative fallout or misunderstanding that could have arisen from people dropping paper into boxes could have been clarified by judges before, during and after the event, and would not have required police beating people up.

Therefore the police acted disproportionately.
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  #232  
Old 03.10.2017, 16:48
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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It is not the job of the police top fulfil every whim of the ruling politicians.
Judges aren't politicians.
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All it takes is a judge to strike the vote down as illegal or void.
Done already.

When we were discussing about the Swiss "Durchsetzungsinitiative" you were clearly in favor of the proposition, in part because it did away with the judges' ability to apply leniency. Now you're arguing the exact opposite.

Make up your mind, you can't have it both ways.
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Seizing them with violence was therefore completely unnecessary would have been completely unnecessary had access to them not been intentionally blocked by the people and against clear orders to make room.
FTFY

I have no doubt obstruction of the police is illegal everywhere.
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During an intervention, and especially if there is escalation, police always need to be aware whether the proportionaility of their actions is still given. Police chiefs need to assume responsibility if they failed to respond proportionately.
I agree. But your conclusion is anything but a given.

Judging based on some short clips on Twitter uploaded by people with a clear and huge bias isn't very wise. Of course only the most gory pieces will be used, and just as certainly everything that may speak in the police's favor gets cut out.
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  #233  
Old 03.10.2017, 18:44
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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When we were discussing about the Swiss "Durchsetzungsinitiative" you were clearly in favor of the proposition, in part because it did away with the judges' ability to apply leniency. Now you're arguing the exact opposite.

Make up your mind, you can't have it both ways.
You are confusing two concepts.

I don't like the concept of judges who do not agree with a law being given a long leash to run around and take decisions that are contrary to the spirit of the law.

But in the Catalonian case this is not what is happening. Rather than relying on judges to say, this vote and its outcome are completely meaningless, police are being sent in to effectively do the judge's work.

There is dangerous crossover there between a judge's responsibilty and that of a policeman.

As I said before, as long as a ballot box is not liable to explode and hurt somebody, it is completely pointless to go in with violence to take it away.

What exactly to do think that action achieved?

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I have no doubt obstruction of the police is illegal everywhere.
Right. Legally speaking it wasn't a referendum but some people meeting up to put pieces of paper in a box, an activity that as far as I am aware is not illegal in any country except maybe North Korea. And yet the police go in in riot gear. I think the proportionailty has already been breached at that point, even before anybody is hurt. It's a provocation. Old ladies respond to the provocation and get beaten up. I think if things go that far down the alley, trying to justify things and defend the police by appealing to advanced legalese is not the honest or wisest response. The police f&kced up. Badly. Stop trying to defend it.


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Judging based on some short clips on Twitter uploaded by people with a clear and huge bias isn't very wise. Of course only the most gory pieces will be used, and just as certainly everything that may speak in the police's favor gets cut out.
The police as a body are supposed to be responsible. Down to every last man and woman. I don't think trying to argue that these were isolated incidents by isolated rogue cops makes it OK somehow.
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  #234  
Old 03.10.2017, 19:00
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

Taking their cue from Hilary:

"Blame it on Russia!"

http://www.ticinonews.ch/estero/4121...endum-catalano

Tom
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  #235  
Old 03.10.2017, 19:08
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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Taking their cue from Hilary:

"Blame it on Russia!"

http://www.ticinonews.ch/estero/4121...endum-catalano

Tom
Hmm, don't know what to say, Tom. Isn't it ironic that Europe dismembers itself while Russia keeps expanding? (and they do so for one thousand years..)

Like, just saying.
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  #236  
Old 03.10.2017, 19:52
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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Taking their cue from Hilary:

"Blame it on Russia!"

http://www.ticinonews.ch/estero/4121...endum-catalano

Tom
Imagine Putin were as insecure and dependent on public opinion as Trump is. We'd be in deep sh**.
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  #237  
Old 03.10.2017, 20:13
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

If the Catalans were guilty of obstructing police access to the ballot boxes, they should have been arrested or cited as such. Somehow I doubt that anywhere in the Spanish legal code prescribes a baton to the head as immediate punishment for such an offence.

The riot cops should have to wear numbered helmets so they can be tried for assault after committing assault.
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  #238  
Old 03.10.2017, 21:19
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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- Courts don't make laws in civil code countries.
- Spain is a civil law country.
- What law was used to issue a court order?

At the end of the day, Spanish paramilitary police fired rubber bullets at *voters* exercising a right to *vote*
Illegal or not, what actual threat is there to the Spanish state?

Oh yeah, the richest province that bankrolls the rest of the country, provides cash for politicians largesse...
Ok, I did not express myself accurately, but here you go... (sorry, the source is in Spanish):
http://cadenaser.com/ser/2017/09/07/...05_128509.html

At the bottom of the article you will find the text from the Spanish Constitutional Court:

http://cadenaser00.epimg.net/descarg...24960b2ee5.pdf

You would be looking at the end of points 4 a) b) and c), after the long list of names.

Point 5 calls for the support of the High Court of Catalonia, who is who sent the police with clear orders to stop the referendum, seize ballot boxes and other materials and close the polling stations. Police did not act on their own accord or following instructions of the government, but following instructions of the High Court of Catalonia.
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  #239  
Old 04.10.2017, 08:10
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

Watching this from afar is like watching a slow motion car crash. Getting hit by a Jumbo Jet. Spain could not be doing a worse job of handling this if they tried. Now the king has waded in. There's so much he could have said to try and ease tensions: state that police violence was excessive, acknowledge the wish many Catalans have for independence, instead he just parroted the government line. And best part was having a king is state that a referendum is illegal and undemocratic.
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  #240  
Old 04.10.2017, 08:47
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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Ok I checked out of intellectual curiosity:
In France, the police would have legal basis for "disruption of public safety", especially the "Atteinte a l'ordre public collective" (group offence against public safety), which includes riots, unauthorised demonstrations, and even crowd.

The sanctions for crowd is up to 1 year jail and 15000 euros fine.

I don't know in Spain, I can imagine it's similar.
Of course there are laws that support Spanish police's actions, but you see, it's trendy now to worship illegality if protesters are considered to be fighting for freedom, women rights (see Famen activists), environment etc etc. Public opinion was infantilised so everything goes.

Anyway, that doesn't mean they shouldn't have handled this situation much better.
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