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Old 04.10.2017, 09:54
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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Of course there are laws that support Spanish police's actions, but you see, it's trendy now to worship illegality if protesters are considered to be fighting for freedom, women rights (see Famen activists), environment etc etc. Public opinion was infantilised so everything goes.

Anyway, that doesn't mean they shouldn't have handled this situation much better.


No, there are no laws that support bashing heads as punishment for the peaceful, non-violent offense of sticking a slip of paper into a cardboard box. Especially considering that the so-called referendum had already been legally declared as non-valid, making it nothing more than a glorified opinion poll in the eyes of the Spanish Gov't.

Is it 'trendy' now to 'worship' illegality, really? I don't understand your perspective here - a vast portion of social progress would never had occurred unless people stood up to unjust laws.

These trendy, fad-oriented women who worshipped illegality had the right idea 100 years ago:

"August 28, 1917
Women started parading in front of the White House for "woman suffrage," women's right to vote, during January 1917. On August 28 of that year, 10 suffragists were arrested. The women wanted President Woodrow Wilson to support the proposed Anthony amendment to the Constitution, which would guarantee women the right to vote. They started off standing silently, holding picket signs reading, "Mr. President, what will you do for Woman Suffrage?" and "How Long Must Women Wait for Liberty?" Riding through the White House gates, his wife by his side, President Wilson customarily tipped his hat to the protestors.

Between June and November 1917, 218 protestors from 26 states were arrested and charged with "obstructing sidewalk traffic" outside the White House gates. During that time, messages on the picket signs became more demanding. The women took advantage of the United States' entry into World War I on April 6. When Russian envoys came through Washington, posters proclaimed that the United States was a democracy in name only...

The leader of the National Woman's Party, Alice Paul, staged a hunger strike in jail after her arrest. Prison doctors had to force-feed her and others. With all the pressure from publicity generated by the White House pickets, the arrests and forced-feedings of women protestors, President Wilson finally lent his support to the suffrage amendment in January 1918. Congress approved it, and on August 18, 1920, with the ratification of the Nineteenth Amendment, women achieved the right to vote."

http://www.americaslibrary.gov/jb/ja...ufarrst_1.html
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  #242  
Old 04.10.2017, 10:01
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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Watching this from afar is like watching a slow motion car crash. Getting hit by a Jumbo Jet. Spain could not be doing a worse job of handling this if they tried. Now the king has waded in. There's so much he could have said to try and ease tensions: state that police violence was excessive, acknowledge the wish many Catalans have for independence, instead he just parroted the government line. And best part was having a king is state that a referendum is illegal and undemocratic.

This absolutely.

His daddy may have been a complete bar steward at times, but at least he could recognize a serious crisis when he saw one and knew how to bring people together.

A pity he didn't teach that to his son.
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  #243  
Old 04.10.2017, 10:15
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

I'm just enjoying the contortions some of my EU- and Catalonia-loving friends are getting themselves into since the European Commission made its position clear - especially those who also support the notion of Scottish independence.

I think it's finally dawning on them that the EU only approves of secessionist movements when they're outside the EU. If you're inside the EU and have aspirations to self-determination, freedom, whatever you want to call it - forget it!

The EU is not your friend, people. It never was and never will be. If you can't see it now after its response to the violence at the weekend, there really is no hope.
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  #244  
Old 04.10.2017, 10:33
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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These trendy, fad-oriented women who worshipped illegality had the right idea 100 years ago:
I see what you're doing here..comparing Femen activists with suffragettes, really?

It might come as a surprise, but women rights movements in Eastern Europe are much older and more efficient than that (otherwise we wouldn't have the right to vote since....earlier than in France for instance). I don't feel represented by those women, I don't even care for their (rather confusing) agenda.

Are you sure all the Catalans were represented in the day of referendum?
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Old 04.10.2017, 10:34
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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I see what you're doing here..comparing Femen activists with suffragettes, really?
No, comparing people trying to vote in Catalonia with suffragettes.
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  #246  
Old 04.10.2017, 10:41
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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...Somehow I doubt that anywhere in the Spanish legal code prescribes a baton to the head as immediate punishment for such an offence.. there are no laws that support bashing heads as punishment for the peaceful, non-violent offense of sticking a slip of paper into a cardboard box.
No, there are no laws that support whacking someone over the head as punishment.

However, worldwide police are permitted to use whatever force is reasonable* to enforce the law. In many countries refusing to comply with an order to disperse, given by a sufficiently senior police officer, is grounds for using force - even if the resistance is non-violent and passive. They're also permitted to take into consideration their own safety - so, go in hard, go in fast so as to minimise the overall level of damage.

The police are legally permitted to be violent. What matters is whether that violence is so disproportionate to the level of risk as to constitute criminal action. The police must be accountable for their actions.

I like the idea of numbered riot police helmets.


* "reasonable" as defined by politicians and judges, who tend to side with the police in these matters.
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  #247  
Old 04.10.2017, 10:50
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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No, comparing people trying to vote in Catalonia with suffragettes.
Not really comparable either.

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No, there are no laws that support whacking someone over the head as punishment.

However, worldwide police are permitted to use whatever force is reasonable* to enforce the law. In many countries refusing to comply with an order to disperse, given by a sufficiently senior police officer, is grounds for using force - even if the resistance is non-violent and passive. They're also permitted to take into consideration their own safety - so, go in hard, go in fast so as to minimise the overall level of damage.

The police are legally permitted to be violent. What matters is whether that violence is so disproportionate to the level of risk as to constitute criminal action. The police must be accountable for their actions.

I like the idea of numbered riot police helmets.


* "reasonable" as defined by politicians and judges, who tend to side with the police in these matters.
This (the whole post in fact). But it's true that their (police's) reactions were totally disproportionate.
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  #248  
Old 04.10.2017, 10:51
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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Not really comparable either.
Both found it necessary to break eggs in order to make an omelette.
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  #249  
Old 04.10.2017, 10:58
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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...I think it's finally dawning on them that the EU only approves of secessionist movements when they're outside the EU. If you're inside the EU and have aspirations to self-determination, freedom, whatever you want to call it - forget it!

The EU is not your friend, people. It never was and never will be. If you can't see it now after its response to the violence at the weekend, there really is no hope.
This is largely due to the fact that the EU framework was never set up to allow for states splitting into two, and it's far too difficult and too much hard work to do it now.

On the other hand, most people within the EU (and even Catalonia) have as much freedom, self-determination etc. as anyone outside. Probably more.
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Old 04.10.2017, 11:12
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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Hmm, don't know what to say, Tom. Isn't it ironic that Europe dismembers itself while Russia keeps expanding? (and they do so for one thousand years..)

Like, just saying.
Russia has been expanding for a thousand years?

It's not long ago that there was a wall through the middle of Berlin, enforced by Russian artillery. Not so much now.

I think the problem that Russia has is the contrary. Seeing all their past glory melting away and all their past allies defecting one after the other is making them more defensive and nationalistic.
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Old 04.10.2017, 11:14
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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Both found it necessary to break eggs in order to make an omelette.
Didn't your uncle Anatole tell you about the Catalan recipe where they ...
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Old 04.10.2017, 12:38
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

DB - When you say "people" are you referring to the Catalan people and that the EU is not their friend? Or in a more general sense?


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The EU is not your friend, people. It never was and never will be. If you can't see it now after its response to the violence at the weekend, there really is no hope.
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Old 04.10.2017, 12:54
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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DB - When you say "people" are you referring to the Catalan people and that the EU is not their friend? Or in a more general sense?
People who have secessionist ideals, yet still think the EU has got their back.
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  #254  
Old 04.10.2017, 14:18
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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As stated several times: The voting was illegal. So what's with the fear?
They could have let them vote, what ever the outcome, it would not have been legally valid. Story over.

The outcome could have given a clearer picture about the opinion of the Catalan and could have been a basis for analysis of an ongoing dispute. And the Spanish could have gotten all these information "for free", not having to admit/allow/give into anything.
Chance missed.

But for a fact: A government that orders part of it's populace to be attacked, physically threatened and stopped from going places is a poor government which should be dissolved. Immediately!

Anywhere else, true, but in Spain, the corrupt government will cling to power by the teeth if they have to- See how compliant were they with the International requests on the historical memory laws about civila war and dictarorship crimes refusin to extradite well known and thoroughly documented torturers for trial of their crimes against humanity during the dictatorship, which had to be held in Argentina, since they also refused to bring the accused to court for trial in Spain, just to name a few, notorious and proven cases.
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  #255  
Old 04.10.2017, 14:37
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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If the Catalans were guilty of obstructing police access to the ballot boxes, they should have been arrested or cited as such. Somehow I doubt that anywhere in the Spanish legal code prescribes a baton to the head as immediate punishment for such an offence.

The riot cops should have to wear numbered helmets so they can be tried for assault after committing assault.

what would you expect from those who condone inflicting extreme prejudice as a scare tactic to be due retribution for peaceful rebels defying the status quo the Ghandi way, under the letter of their unjust law? Peacefully protesting is not rioting, IMHO. Due proceduure was ignored. To enforce a given central law, a fair amount of other laws were broken, like engaging in searches or arresting political opposers and local leaders without a proper warrant. I bet all irregularities in this disgraceful affair will come to public light sooner or later. But in my book, the amount of disproportionate violence against peaceful protesters is intolerable. And no, we were demonstrating with hands up devoid of weapons. Since when is passive resistance a violent act? OMG REALLY? Unless you consider ideals and chanted slogans a lethal weapon to fight dictatorship ways, that is. Political persecution in Europe? Aw, come on! Soem did want us to turn violent. They failed for the most part if not entirely.


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  #256  
Old 04.10.2017, 14:41
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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what would you expect from those who condone inflicting extreme prejudice as a scare tactic to be due retribution for peaceful rebels defying the status quo the Ghandi way, under the letter of their unjust law? Peacefully protesting is not rioting, IMHO. Due proceduure was ignored. To enforce a given central law, a fair amount of other laws were broken, like engaging in searches or arresting political opposers and local leaders without a proper warrant. I bet all irregularities in this disgraceful affair will come to public light sooner or later. But in my book, the amount of disproportionate violence against peaceful protesters is intolerable. And no, we were demonstrating with hands up devoid of weapons. Since when is passive resistance a violent act? OMG REALLY? Unless you consider ideals and chanted slogans a lethal weapon to fight dictatorship ways, that is. Political persecution in Europe? Aw, come on! Soem did want us to turn violent. They failed for the most part if not entirely.
Have you considered for a moment that this might have been tactics? That it was a trap? Now that the violence and unlawful bevaiour quite clearly started on the Spanish side, this is a huge boost for the moral high ground of Catalan independence. When the bridge is burning and Spain is seen holding the matches, nobody will ask who gave them the matches.

All the more stupid of the central government and the police to have risen to the bait and given the Catalans what they wanted, when it would have taken only little intelligence to respond differently.
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  #257  
Old 04.10.2017, 16:45
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

Given the threat/promise to declare independence in a few days' time could they really make a go of it?

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41474674
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  #258  
Old 04.10.2017, 17:31
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

Next steps will be discussed in an extraordinary meeting of the Catalan parliament on Monday.

http://www.lavanguardia.com/politica...ent-lunes.html
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Old 04.10.2017, 17:38
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

I believe that the wish of most Catalans is to live in a modern republic. If such a republic could be created in Spain as a whole then they would be quite happy to accept that. No doubt that many people in Madrid are also in favour of such a republic. The 15 M protests in Madrid brought together people in favour of a new republic but eventually they ran out of steam. In Catalonia, it is the added element of nationalism which keeps the protests going and allows local political leaders to mobilize such large numbers of people on a regular basis.

They real reason the Spanish government used such violence against the voters in the referendum is to avoid a precedent being set. The Spanish people have never been allowed to directly vote on whether they want a monarchy or not and should referendums ever be introduced into Spanish politics, no doubt this is one of the first issues that people would want to vote on.
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Old 04.10.2017, 17:38
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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Given the threat/promise to declare independence in a few days' time could they really make a go of it?

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41474674
they could team up with the UK and other countries/regions might follow.
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