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  #261  
Old 04.10.2017, 19:08
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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I don't like the concept of judges who do not agree with a law being given a long leash to run around and take decisions that are contrary to the spirit of the law.
Yet now you're arguing for the Catalan court (or the police themselves) to ignore the tribunal's explicit orders. Go figure.
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But in the Catalonian case this is not what is happening. Rather than relying on judges to say, this vote and its outcome are completely meaningless, police are being sent in to effectively do the judge's work.
Nonsense. The orders were the judge's, or rather the tribunal's by extension.
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What exactly to do think that action achieved?
That's a completely different question for another thread.
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Right. Legally speaking it wasn't a referendum but some people meeting up to put pieces of paper in a box, an activity that as far as I am aware is not illegal in any country except maybe North Korea.
Legally speaking it was a call for secession, illegal under the Spanish constitution.

And no, I'm not saying the beatings were isolated incidents, read again what I wrote.
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  #262  
Old 04.10.2017, 19:19
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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Yet now you're arguing for the Catalan court (or the police themselves) to ignore the tribunal's explicit orders. Go figure.
By that logic, the orders from the national tribunal (and their excution via the police) must respect higher basic principles and human rights.

This:
http://www.cataloniavotes.eu/en/stat...-oct-1st-2017/
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  #263  
Old 04.10.2017, 19:48
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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I believe that the wish of most Catalans is to live in a modern republic. If such a republic could be created in Spain as a whole then they would be quite happy to accept that. No doubt that many people in Madrid are also in favour of such a republic. The 15 M protests in Madrid brought together people in favour of a new republic but eventually they ran out of steam. In Catalonia, it is the added element of nationalism which keeps the protests going and allows local political leaders to mobilize such large numbers of people on a regular basis.

They real reason the Spanish government used such violence against the voters in the referendum is to avoid a precedent being set. The Spanish people have never been allowed to directly vote on whether they want a monarchy or not and should referendums ever be introduced into Spanish politics, no doubt this is one of the first issues that people would want to vote on.
Absolutely true. I subscribe every word you say. There are many people both in Catalonia and in Spain that believe a republic would be muchj more transparent than a monarchy. Such a big change would likewise hopefully help us find more effective tools to fight endemic corruption. A utopi¡c ideal? Possibly. But many people here are fed up with the loss of civilian rights and apparent impunity of corrupt individuals in certain areas using the crisis as an excuse to get richer wqhile the rrest of the country becomes porer and social welfare goes to hell.

BTW Nationalists also exist although to a more discreet extent as far as I know amongst the Gallegos, the Andalusians, an I believe to an even lesser extent, Aragon, the Canary Islands... though none of those are half as vocal about it as the two most notorious historically separate groups - the Basque Country and Catalonia.
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  #264  
Old 04.10.2017, 23:00
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

So it looks like Catalonia is going to declare independence. Remarkable that even they can consider that Referendum valid. With such a low turn out (despite the police presence), surely even they can see a properly run vote is required in order to have a mandate.

The Spanish government are beyond stupid. They should have just let them have the poll and then declared the result invalid rather than moving in with the heavies. They could after-all have argued that such a low turnout would show that those who wish to remain as part of Spain felt no need to vote as the referendum was anyhow illegal.

As it was they've went in all heavy handed and now have likely stirred up nationalistic feeling amongst those who were either indifferent or who felt being part of Spain was the best way forward. The only resolution now is to have a legal referendum to decide the fate of Catalonia.
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  #265  
Old 04.10.2017, 23:14
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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As it was they've went in all heavy handed and now have likely stirred up nationalistic feeling amongst those who were either indifferent or who felt being part of Spain was the best way forward.The only resolution now is to have a legal referendum to decide the fate of Catalonia.
True.
Or they should get back to the table and find a solution everybody can live with, although I tend to believe that they are past this resolution...What a mess.
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  #266  
Old 04.10.2017, 23:28
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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So it looks like Catalonia is going to declare independence. Remarkable that even they can consider that Referendum valid. With such a low turn out (despite the police presence), surely even they can see a properly run vote is required in order to have a mandate.
If they had wanted a valid referendum, they would have for a minimum respected the Catalan Estatute and the procedures of the Catalan parliament. They did not, because they never wanted a democratic referendum. All they wanted was an excuse to declare independence.
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  #267  
Old 04.10.2017, 23:34
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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True.
Or they should get back to the table and find a solution everybody can live with, although I tend to believe that they are past this resolution...What a mess.
It looks that way now. The joke of it is that support for independence wasn’t even that high in recent months, if a vote were to be held the outcome wouldn’t have been certain. The Spanish should have let them have their vote and put this to bed.

In Ireland before the Easter Rising it was a similar situation, there were many who weren’t too bothered about independence. They soon changed their tune following the way the British handled it.
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  #268  
Old 05.10.2017, 09:39
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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I believe that the wish of most Catalans is to live in a modern republic.
What do you conclude this from? Where are the protests againt Spain being a monarchy or against the King?
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  #269  
Old 05.10.2017, 10:02
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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What do you conclude this from? Where are the protests againt Spain being a monarchy or against the King?
There have been numerous protests against the monarchy in Spain over the last few years despite it being illegal to criticize the king.
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  #270  
Old 05.10.2017, 10:04
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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By that logic, the orders from the national tribunal (and their excution via the police) must respect higher basic principles and human rights.
Of course they have to, though once it's about illegal acts they no longer apply fully.

This very much looks like some fringe group. Germany and France have just one representative each (from Die Linke and the Greens, respectively).
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  #271  
Old 05.10.2017, 10:04
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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There have been numerous protests against the monarchy in Spain over the last few years despite it being illegal to criticize the king.
Where are your references?
(btw not even Podemos, which arose from M-15, seems to have that as one of their main points)
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  #272  
Old 05.10.2017, 10:47
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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There have been numerous protests against the monarchy in Spain over the last few years despite it being illegal to criticize the king.
Don't know about that but for instance my Spanish friend, who is not Catalan btw (he's as Madrilenian as you can get), doesn't like their royalties either. Not sure if he would do anything about it though (taking part to protests etc).
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  #273  
Old 05.10.2017, 11:19
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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Nonsense. The orders were the judge's, or rather the tribunal's by extension.
Do you have a source for that?

I think any judge who signed a document giving toy cops in riot gear a permit to beat old ladies will not be a judge much longer.

In fact I expect he'll be watching his back for the rest of his life, and probably never be setting foot in Catalonia again.


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Legally speaking it was a call for secession, illegal under the Spanish constitution.
Putting a cross on a piece of paper and putting that paper in a box is not a call for secession. This argument is totally constructed.,

There have been parties in Catalonia calling for secession for the best part of the last 40 years. You can walk down the Ramblas on any day and see people selling books about why Catalonia should be independent. Is that not a call for secession?

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And no, I'm not saying the beatings were isolated incidents, read again what I wrote.
You wrote that these pictures were coming from the twittersphere. Unless somebody photoshopped them they really happened. And if they really happened then either somebody ordered the police to do that, or the police was out of control. Neither situation is acceptable.
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  #274  
Old 05.10.2017, 11:32
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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BTW Nationalists also exist although to a more discreet extent as far as I know amongst the Gallegos, the Andalusians, an I believe to an even lesser extent, Aragon, the Canary Islands... though none of those are half as vocal about it as the two most notorious historically separate groups - the Basque Country and Catalonia.
I have friends in the Valencian Community. They like the idea of independence, but I don't think they are truly serious about it.

One problem they have is that many people confuse the Valencian flag for the Catalan one, and also confuse the language, which is very similar, especially in its written form. Many Catalan nationalists consider Valencia part of the Paises Catalanes, along with Roussillion, the Balearics etc. Many of the Catalan maps we are seeing these days even colour Valencia as if it were already part of Catalonia. But my Valencian friends tell me they disgree with that. They have a diferent culture and history and don't like being lumped in with somebody else because outsiders think they are sort of the same. As much as they resent Madrid, they resent Barcelona even more. They would like to be independent but if they can't be they would rather belong to Spain than to Catalonia.
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  #275  
Old 05.10.2017, 14:14
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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Do you have a source for that?
See #245, in particular paragraph 4 in the PDF.

My very limited understanding of Spanish has me understand the thing saying that, first, the governments injunciton is upheld thus the Catalonian vote declared illegal and second, in 4a it explicitly orders all public servants (namely Puidgemont and other Catalans) to obey, warning them of the fact that not doing so (including holding the poll or not surrendering the materials intended for the poll, but also any kind of impediment or other form of disobedience) is subject to criminal law and will be prosecuted.
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You wrote that these pictures were coming from the twittersphere. Unless somebody photoshopped them they really happened. And if they really happened then either somebody ordered the police to do that, or the police was out of control. Neither situation is acceptable.
That's exactly the point. I wouldn't go as far as taking forgeries into account, but we don't know if or how they were falsified, nor do we know what led to the events.

I'm not saying you are wrong. What I do say is that everybody should demand to be shown the whole picture rather than just a few pieces of the puzzle. I trust you know just as well as I do that events can look completely different if taken out of context. To think that a group of people with a clear and strong bias would present the events in a fair way is quite a bit unrealistic - scroll back up to the link that shows that in one case, a picture from 2012 was used.
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  #276  
Old 05.10.2017, 14:42
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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See #245, in particular paragraph 4 in the PDF.

My very limited understanding of Spanish has me understand the thing saying that, first, the governments injunciton is upheld thus the Catalonian vote declared illegal and second, in 4a it explicitly orders all public servants (namely Puidgemont and other Catalans) to obey, warning them of the fact that not doing so (including holding the poll or not surrendering the materials intended for the poll, but also any kind of impediment or other form of disobedience) is subject to criminal law and will be prosecuted.
But surely if it is about sanctioning illegal behaviour then the minimal approach by the police would have been to go in with a camera, film what's going on, and then go after people who have been acting illegally. Clobbering grannies with police batons is a wholy unnecessary level of escalation. It's totally counter productive.

Just think about it like this. Speeding is much more dangerous than putting a piece of paper in a box. Yet if you speed they don't send in the riot police to beat you until the blood flows. They take a photo and use that as evidence. And this depite the fact that your speeding could kill somebody, so theoretically there is an argument (however weak) that you need to be stopped here and now. I cannot see how a piece of paper in a supposedly void and pretend referndum can kill somebody.

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I'm not saying you are wrong. What I do say is that everybody should demand to be shown the whole picture rather than just a few pieces of the puzzle. I trust you know just as well as I do that events can look completely different if taken out of context. To think that a group of people with a clear and strong bias would present the events in a fair way is quite a bit unrealistic - scroll back up to the link that shows that in one case, a picture from 2012 was used.
But then surely that is all the more reason for the state not to provide material that can be misinterpreted. A secessionist movement is always sensitive. You don't want to be seen to be acting in an oppressive way, as that only reinforces the secessionist sentiment.
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  #277  
Old 05.10.2017, 15:43
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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But surely if it is about sanctioning illegal behaviour then the minimal approach by the police would have been to go in with a camera, film what's going on, and then go after people who have been acting illegally. Clobbering grannies with police batons is a wholy unnecessary level of escalation. It's totally counter productive.
The sensible thing would have been to not hold the vote, actually.
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But then surely that is all the more reason for the state not to provide material that can be misinterpreted. A secessionist movement is always sensitive. You don't want to be seen to be acting in an oppressive way, as that only reinforces the secessionist sentiment.
Answered alrady, scroll up.
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  #278  
Old 05.10.2017, 16:57
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

More incompetence ...

The constitutional court has "suspended" Monday's session of the Catalan parliament which would have been about independence.

http://www.lavanguardia.com/politica...ent-lunes.html

I can see more ugly scenes in the offing with riot police violently breaking up a parliamentary debate.

It's almost as if Spain is doing everything it can do to provoke the anger of the Catalans.
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  #279  
Old 05.10.2017, 17:03
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

And the Catalans vice versa

Like both sides want to escalate it further..
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  #280  
Old 05.10.2017, 17:29
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

Worse still, the military is being sent in

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