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  #341  
Old 14.10.2017, 14:49
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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People on both sides are living in cloud cuckoo land. The EU does not support independence movements (unless reasons). Most seekers of independence want their new little countries to stay in the EU. This square cannot be triangled.
...
Wouldn't be so sure about that.
The ideal of a "Europe made of Regions" is much closer the idea of many little states of ca. 10 million of inhabitants each than that of the Big 5 of whom one is out (thank God), the other one is a sh** hole (Spain), mit dem noch das eine oder andere Hühnchen zu rupfen ist and that has never done its homework properly on both economic and political matters.


And neither France nor Germany or Italy has Independence movements like Catalonia or Spain have. So now it could be Zahltag for Madrid and those no-good Bourbon trash, once and for all. To the rejoicing of many in Europe.
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  #342  
Old 14.10.2017, 22:13
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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Wouldn't be so sure about that.
The ideal of a "Europe made of Regions" is much closer the idea of many little states of ca. 10 million of inhabitants each than that of the Big 5
That's an interesting remark.

Whereas I understand that a larger number of regions may be more complex to organise, it would help balancing forces and finishing with the more powerful countries influencing the monetary and finance policies towards their needs, which usually is not what other countries need (think for instance how much Greece could have benefitted from a devaluation, which was impossible within the Euro and its dependency on the economic situation of other countries with a very different profile and momentum).

Perhaps 90 regions is too much but having 50 regions of circa 10 million inhabitants each would be a good way to compensate forces. With the prospect of being among similarly sized regions perhaps even Switzerland would join the EU!
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  #343  
Old 15.10.2017, 09:00
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

The problem for Juncker and his cronies is that it's hard enough getting 28 countries to agree to something. If it was 50 or 90 and it stayed as having to have a unanimous vote to pass it would be even harder. So you change the system to majority vote and then some of the 50 or 90 will get upset and want to leave, etc, etc. And we're back to Brexit.
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  #344  
Old 15.10.2017, 09:52
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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... perhaps even Switzerland would join the EU!
Sorry but this won't happen. We are not crazy! Switzerland has been in the heart of the EU since the fifties and we have never become member of the EU at a time when the EU countries were stable and wealthy.

So you really think that we'll be joining a sinking EU boat with the beggar mentality of some of its newest members: Romania comes to mind.

I'm not even talking about the Romanian beggars that have flooded every city and town in western Europe. I was there recently and despite the billions of EU/CH funds that have been invested wasted there, most parts of the country outside Bucharest are still in desolate state often worse off than Ukraine. That's precisely one of the reasons that has forced the Brits to leave the EU.
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  #345  
Old 15.10.2017, 11:41
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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Sorry but this won't happen. We are not crazy! Switzerland has been in the heart of the EU since the fifties and we have never become member of the EU at a time when the EU countries were stable and wealthy.

So you really think that we'll be joining a sinking EU boat with the beggar mentality of some of its newest members: Romania comes to mind.

I'm not even talking about the Romanian beggars that have flooded every city and town in western Europe. I was there recently and despite the billions of EU/CH funds that have been invested wasted there, most parts of the country outside Bucharest are still in desolate state often worse off than Ukraine. That's precisely one of the reasons that has forced the Brits to leave the EU.
...and one of the two posts of yours was, surprisingly not, this
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It would be wonderful if Trump ends the unjustified sanctions against Russia. Russia can be one of America's best friend.
I'm holding my breath to read your other posts. Old acquaintance I guess, you're periodically here under one name or another.

Also holding my breath to specify how many billions were invested there, compared to say Slovakia, not any other country.

Brexit happened for many reasons and it really has nothing to do with Catalonia's independence movement.

Last edited by greenmount; 15.10.2017 at 11:52.
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  #346  
Old 15.10.2017, 12:41
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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Some people appear to be convinced that Catalonia wants independence from EU and EU won't let it go, not from Spain, which actually is the case.
And then there's the satisfaction that not only UK wanted to escape from EU. I mean, really? With this kind of arguments EU will survive for a long, long time. There are other problems that need to be discussed.
I've no doubt that the vast majority of the people of Catalonia would want to remain a member of the EU. What is (not so) shocking, is that Juncker made it perfectly clear that what he cares about about beyond everything else is the ability of the EU to retain power.
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  #347  
Old 16.10.2017, 10:53
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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  #348  
Old 16.10.2017, 15:30
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

Yes, of course Catalunya wants to be part of the EU. The only ones who really talk about Catalunya being wealthy are the Catalunyans themselves when they talk about "so much of our tax money" going to the rest of Spain.

The reality is, that if Catalunya joined the EU, they would join with their hands open ready to take EU money and NOT have to divvy it up with the rest of Spain. Catalunya will definitely be in the bottom 25% of nations with regards to overall wealth/GDP. IMO, secession and joining EU are purely about joining a bigger gravy train.

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I've no doubt that the vast majority of the people of Catalonia would want to remain a member of the EU. What is (not so) shocking, is that Juncker made it perfectly clear that what he cares about about beyond everything else is the ability of the EU to retain power.
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  #349  
Old 16.10.2017, 17:07
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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The reality is, that if Catalunya joined the EU, they would join with their hands open ready to take EU money and NOT have to divvy it up with the rest of Spain. Catalunya will definitely be in the bottom 25% of nations with regards to overall wealth/GDP. IMO, secession and joining EU are purely about joining a bigger gravy train.
Doesn't each EU member country have veto power WRT new members? In case of secession I don't see Spain not use that option, ever.
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  #350  
Old 16.10.2017, 18:14
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

Under the current rules, yes. But I can envision a few years down the road, if Catalunya gains independence, that the EU will find a way to get Spain to back off (more money!). We'll see.

If Catalunya gains independence and becomes the train wreck that I see, then I imagine that the EU will try to help, also finding a way to circumvent any Spanish veto. Of course, Catalunya embraces most of the values that the EU values; even more so than Spain.

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Doesn't each EU member country have veto power WRT new members? In case of secession I don't see Spain not use that option, ever.

Last edited by My2pups; 17.10.2017 at 11:25.
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  #351  
Old 16.10.2017, 18:25
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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Do you have a source for that? Because most of the Spaniards I know (inc most of my friends in Madrid) are pro EU
I have no idea where you get that idea from. My wife is Spanish, most of my friends are Spanish, and it would seem to me that 90% of Spaniards are in favour of the EU.
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  #352  
Old 16.10.2017, 19:56
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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I have no idea where you get that idea from. My wife is Spanish, most of my friends are Spanish, and it would seem to me that 90% of Spaniards are in favour of the EU.
Do you need a new pair of specs, buddy?
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  #353  
Old 17.10.2017, 09:36
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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Under the current rules, yes. But I can envision a few years down the road, if Catalunya gains independence, that the EU will find a way to get Spain to back off (more money!). We'll see.
So the result would be the status quo except for that one additional voice that would increase the cacophony they already have. I fail to see any logic in that. Not that the EU has any legal voice on Catalonia's secession, but still.
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  #354  
Old 17.10.2017, 09:48
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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Under the current rules, yes. But I can envision a few years down the road, if Catalunya gains independence, that the EU will find a way to get Spain to back off (more money!). We'll see.

If Catalunya gains independence and becomes the train wreck that I see, then I imagine that the EU will try to help, also finding a way to circumvent any Spanish veto. Of course, Cataluny embraces most of the values that the EU values; even more so than Spain.
highly unlikely as any government accepting that will be a goner and the careers will be over.

EU had no power over Wallonia this year and they became heroes. If all else fails, Spanish government will take it to a referendum. However keep in mind, there are other countries like France who would oppose Catalan membership as well.
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  #355  
Old 17.10.2017, 23:42
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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EU will lose and might even collapse if they don't find a compromise re. local nationalisms.
I was forwarded this video today. Much discussion about it ongoing...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLCoW_GiXAs
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  #356  
Old 18.10.2017, 07:15
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qJ1BuiIlzrc

Here another version, probably the truth is something in between...

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  #357  
Old 19.10.2017, 12:54
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

Appears Spain are predictably going to invoke Art. 155 after refusing dialog

Expect Catalunya to declare Independence as a result - will some EU countries follow Slovenia in recognizing them?
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  #358  
Old 19.10.2017, 17:02
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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appears spain are predictably going to invoke art. 155 after refusing dialog

expect catalunya to declare independence as a result - will some eu countries follow slovenia in recognizing them?
slovenia will recognise catalan independence?
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  #359  
Old 19.10.2017, 17:05
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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slovenia will recognise catalan independence?
They have indeed made some statements to that effect.

http://www.elnacional.cat/en/news/sl...03373_102.html
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  #360  
Old 19.10.2017, 18:49
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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They have indeed made some statements to that effect.

http://www.elnacional.cat/en/news/sl...03373_102.html
I see one guy of a party with 6 seats in the parliament making an statement that he "believes" that they will be "among the first". Claiming that "Slovenia has made an statement" looks quite an exaggeration to me... but nothing new coming from the pro-independence side.

When 17 out of 189 MP of the Danish Parliament (from 7 out of 12 parties represented) signed a letter saying that they supported whatever, Puigdemont also claimed that a majority of parties in the Danish Parliament were supporting independence.
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