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Old 21.10.2017, 02:11
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

My catalan friends tell me that most of catalans they know don't want the independence, but they don't say it to avoid conflicts. Some people have been fired or insulted just by saying it to wrong people. Even Kids are pushed to support this thing in the schools...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DkgslgP7uU
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  #362  
Old 21.10.2017, 13:15
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qJ1BuiIlzrc

Here another version, probably the truth is something in between...

thanks for the video. This video shows another reality that is not played by an actress. Separatists are not pacifist at all and Spain has a democracy that has to protect the majority of the people, against what a group of radicals want by the force. People who support Spain doesn't go to the street to destroy things, so they don't make noise, but they exist and need to be respected by a legal vote, that is coming soon.

Don't let manipulate by independence activists... They are doing a strong campaign in the internet to create a wrong image of Spain as a repressive country.

The real problem is inside Catalonia. Catalan separatists against the rest... Many companies, schools and Families are brocken because of this unstabiliization, what separatist politician wanted to do with the people. They never wantet a dialog.
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  #363  
Old 21.10.2017, 13:33
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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They have indeed made some statements to that effect.

http://www.elnacional.cat/en/news/sl...03373_102.html
Germany, France and UK support Spain:

https://elpais.com/elpais/2017/10/20...16_965994.html

USA, Mexico and most of Latinamerica.......... support Spain.

https://www.efe.com/efe/english/port...000260-3406099

Russia, Venezuela, Slovenia, Kosovo and North Korea support an independent Catalonia.


Now we can understand better how's the game being played. No more words to say.
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  #364  
Old 21.10.2017, 13:55
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

Well, and I'm Swiss and I support Democracy.


Whoever is in favor of beating up voters and fears the people's free will is against. Quite easy as concept, so far. Who is frightened of voters has a problem with that. And it would be totallly unswiss, btw. We would still have to greet Gessler and the Habsburg trash if we disrespected free expression of speech.


If Spain is a real democracy able to keep up with all Western democratic standards, I fear that the answer is not so easy. Many many bad things about Spanish/Franquist/Bourbon history have not yet overcome yet (Rajoy and Aznar have been trying of rather turning the wheel back); which is a big difference to other ex-fashist countries like Germany or Italy, e.g.


30 years missing there, still. Apart from the economic situation that Spain is a real parasite of its European partners, up from the beginning.


Let's face it: Who of us would like to be a citizen of Spain, if one had the chance to choose?

Last edited by Bucentaure; 21.10.2017 at 14:05.
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  #365  
Old 21.10.2017, 14:17
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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Well, and I'm Swiss and I support Democracy.


Whoever is in favor of beating up voters and fears the people's free will is against. Quite easy as concept, so far. Who is frightened of voters has a problem with that. And it would be totallly unswiss, btw. We would still have to greet Gessler and the Habsburg trash if we disrespected free expression of speech.


If Spain is a real democracy able to keep up with all Western democratic standards, I fear that the answer is not so easy. Many many bad things about Spanish/Franquist/Bourbon history have not yet overcome yet (Rajoy and Aznar have been trying of rather turning the whell back); which is a big difference to other ex-fashist countries like Germany or Italy, e.g.


30 years missing there, still. Apart from the economic situation that Spain is a real parasite of its European partners, up from the beginning.


Let's face it: Who of us would like to be a citizen of Spain, if one had the chance to choose?

What do you mean with "chance to choose"?
Your "chance to choose" should be limited when it comes in conflict with my "chance to choose". "Chance to choose" is just an Anarchy.

Democracy is not that 35% decide for all (90% of 39% wo voted). And this is based on an illegal election, where some people voted many times.

https://interaktiv.tagesanzeiger.ch/...enincontroller


Anyway, a new election is coming soon. And we will see what are the results. Because independentist parties will probably massively lose.

Catalans will decide what they want in the right way.
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  #366  
Old 21.10.2017, 14:22
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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... that Spain is a real parasite of its European partners, up from the beginning.
Spain is not a parasite in the EU. What are you based on to say that?
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  #367  
Old 21.10.2017, 14:28
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

You want to deny that Spain is among the biggest net profiteurs of EU Transfers?

e.g. http://www.bpb.de/nachschlagen/zahle...ettoempfaenger

and once you sum those tranfers up from 1986, you could get an idea of how much European tax payers like countries like Spain.


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What do you mean with "chance to choose"?
Your "chance to choose" should be limited when it comes in conflict with my "chance to choose". "Chance to choose" is just an Anarchy.
...
Only in the eyes of centralists and dictators.

Nobody is harmed in his personal rights if a Catalonian decides not to be a citizen of Spain. Or to be one, infact.

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Democracy is not that 35% decide for all (90% of 39% wo voted). And this is based on an illegal election, where some people voted many times.
...
It's illegal in the eyes of the oppressor. Of course it is difficult to have a trustworthy election procedure if portions of the electorate are beaten up by the oppressor. And btw. also it were "only" 90% of 39% (which we don't know), it would be a significant sign that there is something rotten in that state of that puppet "king".


A shame.
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  #368  
Old 21.10.2017, 14:51
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

I agree with Bucentaure on this. I am really surprised, as I too thought that the Spanish government would react very differently, with dialogue.



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Well, and I'm Swiss and I support Democracy.


Whoever is in favor of beating up voters and fears the people's free will is against. Quite easy as concept, so far. Who is frightened of voters has a problem with that. And it would be totallly unswiss, btw. We would still have to greet Gessler and the Habsburg trash if we disrespected free expression of speech.


If Spain is a real democracy able to keep up with all Western democratic standards, I fear that the answer is not so easy. Many many bad things about Spanish/Franquist/Bourbon history have not yet overcome yet (Rajoy and Aznar have been trying of rather turning the wheel back); which is a big difference to other ex-fashist countries like Germany or Italy, e.g.


30 years missing there, still. Apart from the economic situation that Spain is a real parasite of its European partners, up from the beginning.


Let's face it: Who of us would like to be a citizen of Spain, if one had the chance to choose?
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  #369  
Old 21.10.2017, 14:52
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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You want to deny that Spain is among the biggest net profiteurs of EU Transfers?

e.g. http://www.bpb.de/nachschlagen/zahle...ettoempfaenger

and once you sum those tranfers up from 1986, you could get an idea of how much European tax payers like countries like Spain.



Only in the eyes of centralists and dictators.

Nobody is harmed in his personal rights if a Catalonian decides not to be a citizen of Spain. Or to be one, infact.


It's illegal in the eyes of the oppressor. Of course it is difficult to have a trustworthy election procedure if portions of the electorate are beaten up by the oppressor. And btw. also it were "only" 90% of 39% (which we don't know), it would be a significant sign that there is something rotten in that state of that puppet "king".


A shame.

Why do you use the word parasite? Are italy, Portugal, Poland, Hungary and Greece parasites as well? This is an economig union with countries that help other. And Spain needs less every year, as the economie gets stronger.

Are you saying that Spain hat a dictatorship? Come on...

Catalonia has its own parlament and they didn't reach the 50% to declare the independence.
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  #370  
Old 21.10.2017, 15:33
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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Why do you use the word parasite? Are italy, Portugal, Poland, Hungary and Greece parasites as well? This is an economig union with countries that help other. And Spain needs less every year, as the economie gets stronger.
...
Spain is a net profiteur up from its first year of EU Membership, nothing has changed on that. And of course new members or members in the periphery with enemy neighbour countries like Turkey have to face other problems.


Btw. Italy is a net payer till the first 1970ies, when Spain was still a non-European country somewhere close to Morocco, under Franco rule.


But I don't want tho digress, imho the Thing is not about money (apart from the fact that among the Things why Spain cannot expect empathy from a normal European citizen is the Thing about the transfer payments, year after year and the country still doesn't do its homework nor does it respect human rights, apart from any question about self-determination and electoral rights).



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Are you saying that Spain hat a dictatorship?
...
No, but no real Western Democracy either. On many matters, among them not only economic ones, but also political, appearently so. Spain is internationally known for lacks in Franquist and colonial history discussion, although it has been continuesly progressing on that matter under the Gonzalez and Zapatero administration. And yes I do remember brave people like Baltasar Garzón, e.g.




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Catalonia has its own parlament and they didn't reach the 50% to declare the independence.
Do you have any idea how the story could be dealt with in any other places of the world, Europe included?
No voting rights to any of the Castilian immigrants and their children, but only to the autochton people.
I'm not in favor of that approach, but it's not uncommon. The Catalan admin is not at all like those, however.
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  #371  
Old 21.10.2017, 15:47
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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Well, and I'm Swiss and I support Democracy.


Whoever is in favor of beating up voters and fears the people's free will is against. Quite easy as concept, so far. Who is frightened of voters has a problem with that. And it would be totallly unswiss, btw. We would still have to greet Gessler and the Habsburg trash if we disrespected free expression of speech.


If Spain is a real democracy able to keep up with all Western democratic standards, I fear that the answer is not so easy. Many many bad things about Spanish/Franquist/Bourbon history have not yet overcome yet (Rajoy and Aznar have been trying of rather turning the wheel back); which is a big difference to other ex-fashist countries like Germany or Italy, e.g.


30 years missing there, still. Apart from the economic situation that Spain is a real parasite of its European partners, up from the beginning.


Let's face it: Who of us would like to be a citizen of Spain, if one had the chance to choose?
You probably need to read this:
https://elpais.com/elpais/2017/10/15...56_234208.html

You perception that anyone who is a net receiver is a parasite explains quite well why you understand the catalan's position. You have probably never heard about solidarity. Or maybe you have not taken the time to think why some countries are less developped than others, appart from topics and stereotypes.

I have not been here long enough to be able to apply for Swiss citizenship, so I cannot choose yet. But for the time being I am happy to be Spanish rather than from a country whose most represented party in the Federal Assembly is the SVP.
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  #372  
Old 21.10.2017, 16:17
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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I have not been here long enough to be able to apply for Swiss citizenship, so I cannot choose yet. But for the time being I am happy to be Spanish rather than from a country whose most represented party in the Federal Assembly is the SVP.
Apart from the fact that SVP is not me and I'm not SVP, only you could answer yourself the question if this is so terrible for you why should you be forced to stay in this country?
Besides that, SVP has never been a dictator supporter nor in any kind, neither personally nor institutionally, involved with Swiss dictators. I wouldn't be so sure of its Spanish pendant, with regard to both, the actual Spanish administration and the king's dynasty.
So for sure Spain has to face serious issues on this matter; it would be strange if not.

And you simply cannot say "Oh what a surprise that the Catalans don't like us", as this is simply normal. Nobody likes a king whose ancestors had no glorious rule at all (exception made for Felipe's father) and parties resp. persons whose implications in the former oppressor's game are not so clear, governors who failed in any of the acknowledgements of guaranteeing the Catalans (or others who wish doing so) to be a Nation, who fail to fullfil any of the country's economic goals for years, don't do their homework but stutter only bulls**t in silly Politbureau-like TV parodies,

plus whose vocabulary is exact that one from back then (of course one gets pi**ssed about my "parasite" comparison but doesn't bother about his "anarchy" analogy at all), besides from physical violence which is a long Spanish and not Catalan tradition.


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You have probably never heard about solidarity. Or maybe you have not taken the time to think why some countries are less developped than others, appart from topics and stereotypes.
...
If Spain doesn't respect minimal standards it's them to leave, not Catalonia. Europe doesn't need brutal oppressors, and there can be solidarity only among who shares basic values. If you think the official Spanish way to deal with the issue is a solution for modern political problems, leave the EU, leave Switzerland and problems solved.

Last edited by Bucentaure; 21.10.2017 at 16:31.
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  #373  
Old 21.10.2017, 16:30
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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I have not been here long enough to be able to apply for Swiss citizenship, so I cannot choose yet. But for the time being I am happy to be Spanish rather than from a country whose most represented party in the Federal Assembly is the SVP.
I am astonished. You may be in favor or against SVP, many people has no sympathy for them, but others do and at the end a political party represents the people that vote for them (at least in Switzerland). And hey, you know what? under democracy that deserves respect. You might not share the way certain political parties think, fight their arguments, discuss, protest. But insult, disdain, violence and the likes surely are out of order, and very especially: your so very contemptuous comment is unacceptable to me, because with such attitude you are actually insulting the citizens behind the political parties you don't agree with, just because you don't like their ideas. Is this really the way you deal with divergence of opinion? you say you are Spanish.- don't you see that looking down on a subset of the locals (the SVP voters) whose opinions are not shared by all, but respected by all the locals is...ehem...disrespectful?
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  #374  
Old 21.10.2017, 16:44
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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I agree with Bucentaure on this. I am really surprised, as I too thought that the Spanish government would react very differently, with dialogue.
...
As a matter of fact, I'm surprised, too.

Of course - as written before - I know that Spain, also on political matters, is not really up-to-date with other countries (the physical proof is before our eyes),
I couldn't believe that the Spanish admin, newspaper and the king act like such fools (but infact, this is a Spanish tradition, unfortunately).

Why couldn't they simply say: Dear Catalan admin, it's up to you defining yourself a Nation, Kulturnation, a country, region, a kindergarten or a Golden Retriever, find yourself a good Name and we are going to chisel it on marble together with you, if you wish.
You aren't still happy? OK, let's hold a real referendum with minimum quorum and all the rest (of course we will not send out our Franquist Schlägertrupps), and if you really want to leave then go, if all of us can handle with the costs. Of course, the cost aspect has to be object of discussion and the referendum, also with regards to what happened to those foolish Brits.


You really think that independentists could have had a chance in winning?
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  #375  
Old 21.10.2017, 17:06
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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As a matter of fact, I'm surprised, too.
....

You really think that independentists could have had a chance in winning?
To me the key is not whether independence wins or not. There are many arguments for and against it, difficult to say what is best, it is up to the peole living there to discuss. But what seems unrealistic to me are the ways, the language, the violence....the fact that actually there is no discussion: the Spanish government keeps rejecting dialogue and prefers instead all those Polizei rallying and now isn t it that they are trying to make out the elected catalan government? That was the surprise to me: I thought there would be much more political maturity in dealing with this topic. Surprise, surprise.
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  #376  
Old 21.10.2017, 17:08
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

And what I expected from the head of the State, a President or in this case the King with that personal and historical responsability, would have been something like this:


Me as the King I'm obliged to be a guarant of the Constitution. But prior to this is the protection of my people and its citizens (so among others both Castilians and Catalans, if he remembers),


but as a citizen and a human being, the first thing is liberty.
So it's up to the Catalans to decide, not to Rajoy, me or any other.


Would have been a great gesture and a wise political trick, imho.




P.S. He could have held his speech in Catalan. After all, he's King of Catalunya, too. He should know.

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  #377  
Old 21.10.2017, 18:03
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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And what I expected from the head of the State, a President or in this case the King with that personal and historical responsability, would have been something like this:


Me as the King I'm obliged to be a guarant of the Constitution. But prior to this is the protection of my people and its citizens (so among others both Castilians and Catalans, if he remembers),


but as a citizen and a human being, the first thing is liberty.
So it's up to the Catalans to decide, not to Rajoy, me or any other.


Would have been a great gesture and a wise political trick, imho.
Mmmm I am not sure whether I agree on that this is only up to the Catalans to decide. Spain should have a say (upon Catalan independence, they would see their income affected...like in the case of Jura).

But yes, the position of a king I agree should be in the lines you mention, a neutral figure considering all the citizenship above regional origin or political ideology, facilitating dialoge. Agree on that.
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  #378  
Old 21.10.2017, 18:34
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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I am astonished. You may be in favor or against SVP, many people has no sympathy for them, but others do and at the end a political party represents the people that vote for them (at least in Switzerland). And hey, you know what? under democracy that deserves respect. You might not share the way certain political parties think, fight their arguments, discuss, protest. But insult, disdain, violence and the likes surely are out of order, and very especially: your so very contemptuous comment is unacceptable to me, because with such attitude you are actually insulting the citizens behind the political parties you don't agree with, just because you don't like their ideas. Is this really the way you deal with divergence of opinion? you say you are Spanish.- don't you see that looking down on a subset of the locals (the SVP voters) whose opinions are not shared by all, but respected by all the locals is...ehem...disrespectful?
I admit that my answer was provoking, and I apologise to those who felt offended. My intention (by the way, a similar example was given in the article I linked) was more about illustrating that making some statements about a country as a whole can be offensive to many people. However, you can only take my comment as an offense if you feel that there is something shameful about the SVP having such a strong support.

The comment portraying net receivers as parasites is particularly xenophobic, and by no means related to the topic being discussed here. I have paid taxes in Germany, Belgium and the UK, all of them net contributors, and I do not consider myself better than people from poorer countries.
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Old 21.10.2017, 19:01
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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The comment portraying net receivers as parasites is particularly xenophobic, and by no means related to the topic being discussed here. I have paid taxes in Germany, Belgium and the UK, all of them net contributors, and I do not consider myself better than people from poorer countries.
One gets p*ssed that I called Spain, which cannot expect any sympathy from Europeans for the fact that Brussels i.e. European tax payers finance Spain for decades and is considered in public opinion even worse, as being one of those parasites,

but has no problem in denying self Determination and liberty to the people and sees no problem if someone is calling it "illegal" and "anarchy",

takes violence as a means of blocking the expression of free speech and electoral rights, approve that as normal standard, claims solidarity for his position

and spits on democratical parties as SVP (which it is, also if of the right wing of political spectrum, it is within the democratical spectrum; and that makes it quite unique in the European populist party landscape) and the Swiss electorate?

I fear there is really no common base on any standard here, sorry.

This is clash of civilisations and shows that a solution could be miles away. However, time is not of big help as a new generation is coming up after Juncker, Monti, Schulz and others. More populist and more realistic.


If even I am irritated about your position (I'm no Catalan and not even really in favor of a Catalan independence, but in favor that a citizen must have the right to choose and decide), imagine those who are politically and ethnically involved and are in favor.


God luck with that.

Last edited by Bucentaure; 21.10.2017 at 19:12.
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  #380  
Old 21.10.2017, 20:26
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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I , you can only take my comment as an offense if you feel that there is something shameful about the SVP having such a strong support.
Me feeling that shameful? Come on.
That statement came from you, not from me. Sorry, you twist your arguments in such a way that I really can not follow. Good luck with that one.
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