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  #21  
Old 20.09.2017, 16:43
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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The EU? Most of the Spanish people are against it, except for the Catalans of course.
My Euskadi family members are pro independence for Catalunya ...simply because a) it is something they have also wanted for their own region for ever, and
b) like with the Catalans, anything against Madrid is a band wagon worth jumping on.


So no, you are wrong with that assumption.
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  #22  
Old 20.09.2017, 17:20
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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I think you took it out of the context, it was a reply to someone else. I meant the rest of the spaniards (at least those that I know strongly believe this) are against the independence of Catalonia...this has nothing to do with EU for the moment. It was the Spanish government that reacted against the referendum, not EU.

I think it's a Spanish problem and don't see how EU can interfere in this matter. Well, at least for the moment.
I know several Spaniards who are not Catalans but who are rooting for Catalan independence. There are several other independence movements waiting on the sidelines and not drawing too much atention to themselves but they would jump after Catalonia's coattails if they were succesful.
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Old 20.09.2017, 17:22
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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My Euskadi family members are pro independence for Catalunya ...simply because a) it is something they have also wanted for their own region for ever, and
b) like with the Catalans, anything against Madrid is a band wagon worth jumping on.


So no, you are wrong with that assumption.
Well, I said most didn't I? I knew about the other region willing to gain independence btw.
Anyway, my "assumption" was confirmed by other Spaniards so no, it wasn't an assumption.


See other post on this thread btw
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Well, the majority of the Spanish are actually against the referendum (sorry, it's in Spanish)

http://www.elmundo.es/espana/2017/09...e518b461f.html

And doing a referendum which is basically illegal / has no legitimacy leads nowhere...

https://www.ft.com/content/eb770a58-...2-cde3f882dd7b

That being said, the outcome is complicated. The Spanish government strategy was basically to do nothing, hoping that these guys will calm down and forget about that...which didn't happen, and here we are now.

Side note: good that I'm going to Barcelona next weekend
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  #24  
Old 20.09.2017, 17:24
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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Historically Madrid only knows one way to deal with Catalan people who do not act like Madrid wants them to act, I think to many Catalan people have forgotten about this due to the great economical years in the region. Some reminders about the actual situation and the past might give the independence camp a support boost.
In what way do you mean?

Catalans tend to paint themselves as having been agains Franco. But if you look at history, support was pretty strong for him in Catalonia too. I guess they only remember the things in history they want to remember.

Same as any other nation really.
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Old 20.09.2017, 17:26
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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Well, I said most didn't I? I knew about the other region willing to gain independence btw.
Anyway, my "assumption" was confirmed by other Spaniards so no, it wasn't an assumption.
It's not just one other region. Balearics, Valencia, and also some others also have independence movements. Only they aren't quite as strong or vocal or organized. But that can all change.
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Old 20.09.2017, 17:29
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups...
Isn't independence a way of making large groups less large?
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  #27  
Old 20.09.2017, 17:30
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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I guess they only remember the things in history they want to remember.

Same as any other nation really.
Is now a good time to mention that most Scots are ethnically English, and that more Scots fought for the Duke of Cumberland than with the Highlanders at Culloden?

No?

OK, I'll shut up, then...
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Old 20.09.2017, 17:41
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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.....
Side note: good that I'm going to Barcelona next weekend
why, you'll sort it out within two days?

<<chanting “Occupying forces out” and “Where is Europe?”.>> does that only to me sound contradictory?

What Spain does is counter-productive. If they don't know that they really should be left behind, who wants a stupid governement?
However, how much money (tourism, mineral resources etc. etc.) will Spain lose if Catalonia goes independent? Because that is what this is all about - again - no?
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  #29  
Old 20.09.2017, 18:02
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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What Spain does is counter-productive. If they don't know that they really should be left behind, who wants a stupid governement?
However, how much money (tourism, mineral resources etc. etc.) will Spain lose if Catalonia goes independent? Because that is what this is all about - again - no?
This precisely is the core of the matter. Catalonia (or at least so the Catalans claim) cross subsidizes the rest of Spain. If Catalonia broke away, Spain would have a huge government deficit and somebody (cough cough Germany) would have to step up with a fat chequebook.
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  #30  
Old 20.09.2017, 20:25
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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In what way do you mean?

Catalans tend to paint themselves as having been agains Franco. But if you look at history, support was pretty strong for him in Catalonia too. I guess they only remember the things in history they want to remember.

Same as any other nation really.
I'd like to read up more about this if you could share a link, I learned that Catalonia fought against Franco to defend the Second Spanish Republic, and after they lost Franco took away their autonomy, and the whole catalonian region suffered for years under boycots.

So how big was support according to you? I find it hard to believe that majority or a group even close to that would support such.

In every country Germany invaded thousands of people cheered for the nazi's taking over, that does not say in any way that those countries were supportive towards the nazi's.
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  #31  
Old 20.09.2017, 21:08
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

The trouble with Socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money.
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  #32  
Old 20.09.2017, 21:40
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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The trouble with Socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money.
Thatcher.

A very smart woman who fully understood the dangers of to much socialism.
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  #33  
Old 20.09.2017, 21:49
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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The trouble with Socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money.
Wise words from Trump.

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Mr Trump then told the General Assembly: “The problem with Venezuela, is not that socialism has been poorly implemented, but that socialism has been faithfully implemented.”

He paused for a response but was met with awkward silence before sounds of murmured laughter could be heard, and eventually weak clapping.

The president then continued with his speech, stating: “From the Soviet Union to Cuba to Venezuela, wherever true socialism or communism has been adopted, it has delivered anguish and devastation and failure.”
source http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...-a7956686.html
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  #34  
Old 20.09.2017, 21:54
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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Catalonia cross subsidizes the rest of Spain. If Catalonia broke away, Spain would have a huge government deficit and somebody (cough cough Germany) would have to step up with a fat chequebook.
Same with Padania and the rest of Italy.

Tom
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Old 20.09.2017, 21:57
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

Is there one thread where you folks could leave Trump out of?

He's got his own thread, enjoy.
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  #36  
Old 20.09.2017, 22:15
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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Arrested for wanting independence. Unbelievable.

Spain need to be careful how they deal with this, if the crackdown is too strong then there'll be a backlash.

The UK should be proud for allowing the Scottish referendum vote to go ahead. Referendums and self determination are the way forward.
So after 250ish years, the brits learned their lesson? Glad to hear it.
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Old 20.09.2017, 22:48
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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So after 250ish years, the brits learned their lesson? Glad to hear it.
The English. The Scots and Welsh were tought their lessons centuries ago...
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  #38  
Old 20.09.2017, 23:24
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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Thatcher.

A very smart woman who fully understood the dangers of to much socialism.
She talked the talk but the state still grew under her watch.
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  #39  
Old 20.09.2017, 23:40
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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I'd like to read up more about this if you could share a link, I learned that Catalonia fought against Franco to defend the Second Spanish Republic, and after they lost Franco took away their autonomy, and the whole catalonian region suffered for years under boycots.

So how big was support according to you? I find it hard to believe that majority or a group even close to that would support such.

In every country Germany invaded thousands of people cheered for the nazi's taking over, that does not say in any way that those countries were supportive towards the nazi's.
In a war, and especially in a civil war, it is not always correct to assume the will or political persuasion of the generals is also that of the people. Some Catalans fought against Franco. The Catalan government fought against Franco courtesy of guns supplied by uncle Stalin, while Franco of course fought back with the help of Hitler and Mussolini. It wasn't really a Spanish war at all but it was a war between foreign powers fought on Spanish soil. The Spanish Civil War was a very nasty affair and both sides performed terrible war crimes. Google the white terror versus the red terror.

There are plenty of examples of political alignments that do not match the simplified picture of Catalonia being deeply republican. The republicans actually destroyed Gaudi's archives, including the plans for the Sagrada Famila, a Catalan nationalist symbol. Many monuments to Catalan nationalist heroes still have bullet holes in them, not fired by nationalist troops but by republican ones. The Catatalan people were far too conservative and reactionary for the tastes of the Republicans, who took it on themselves to teach them a lesson or two. But it has been a Catalan virtue that they have always resisted whoever was trying to tell them what to do, even those pretending it was for their own good. As Republican troops retreated, their leaders sent out an order that all of Barcelona was to be destroyed in a huge fire so that Franco would not have any benefit of it. Catalan people, actually republican deserters, sabotaged those plans.
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Old 20.09.2017, 23:57
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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This precisely is the core of the matter. Catalonia (or at least so the Catalans claim) cross subsidizes the rest of Spain. If Catalonia broke away, Spain would have a huge government deficit and somebody (cough cough Germany) would have to step up with a fat chequebook.
I think your statement is mainly based on the comments you've heard from your friends. There are a few facts, for example, that Catalunia has the highest debt of any region in Spain; I believe I heard something above Eur 200B -but don't quote me on that -and the main holder of such debt is the central government. So I guess both parties would suffer equally in that sense. Ah, I almost forgot, but although according to the polls the majority of the catalans are for the right to vote, those same polls state that the majority do not want independence. So an interesting situation.
The main reason for not allowing them to vote at this point is because it is constitutionally illegal. I guess efforts should first go to change the constitution to allow this kind of referendums, instead of forcing them this way. That could trigger a good discussion around autonomy of the different regions in Spain and could eventually result in further support to the separatists in Catalunya.

My humble opinion as spanish is that there is an absence of historical support to this independence request -Catalunia has never been an independent kingdom- and if you go back 20 years ago, there was very few people in Catalunya that wanted or even talked about independence. There has been a systematic approach to request more and more autonomy for the region in the last 20 years and that partially has fostered this situation.
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