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  #381  
Old 21.10.2017, 21:45
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

Well, maybe he meant that something in that party or the party's members or programme is shameful.

Of course it is; but this is the case with all parties where a multitude of people and positions are somehow involved. Personally I do feel ashame of a bunch of things the party which I usually give at least the majority of my votes does or wants, which btw. is not SVP but its political opponent on the other side, 180° apart.

I mean, this is Democracy: You share a portion of what you think could be true or at least trustworthy or plausible, but never an ideology as a whole.

Plus some strategical voting in case one fears that one position would get too strong, with regards to the one of the probable minority.

Makes a yes/no referendum sometimes a hard task, but hey this is life. There would be (hopefully) other elections and votings.

And this is also what it makes it different from the Catalan referendum.

But mamma mia on the one hand Europeans want a strong unity of regions, and when a region takes in its hand its own political destiny it's not right, on the other, again.
And - yes - I can see many arguments against an Independence, but not so many against a referendum.
Opinionists and politicals deplore widespread lack of political interest and participation? In this case they could get one.
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  #382  
Old 21.10.2017, 22:25
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

Catalan won't accept Spain's plan.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41710873

They will when the army starts moving in.
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  #383  
Old 21.10.2017, 22:34
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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They will when the army starts moving in.
We don't need another Turkey in Europe, worse in the EU.


What shall we do? Call for the International Brigades?


If Madrid wants Civil War, again, they can have it. And if the official EU is not with the Catalans, the heart of democratic people is. Maybe we could organize some help for Catalunya?
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  #384  
Old 22.10.2017, 00:02
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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We don't need another Turkey in Europe, worse in the EU.
Absolutely.

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What shall we do? Call for the International Brigades?


If Madrid wants Civil War, again, they can have it. And if the official EU is not with the Catalans, the heart of democratic people is. Maybe we could organize some help for Catalunya?
That's a good question. I really hope this can still be solved speaking and no via a civil war, or the military as somebody mentions above ....do you think that regular citizens from 3rd countries can help dialogue to happen when their own governments refuse to? Are there precedents -keinen Präzedenzfall oder?
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  #385  
Old 22.10.2017, 18:02
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

Guys, the conversation gets really boring when the single arguments you have to defend de independence of Catalonia are just:

- Egoismus: To avoid paying taxes to a "parasite" country.
- Francoist Spain's regime that represses the poor catalans. That is clearly exagerated.


It sounds so openly populist the whole thing!


I prefer the mentality of north Italy. They want to improve their conditions to support less the south side of Italy (egoismus again), but always fullfilling the constitution.

Spanish people are just much temperamental and intense. No offense. :-)
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  #386  
Old 22.10.2017, 20:15
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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Guys, the conversation gets really boring when the single arguments you have to defend de independence of Catalonia are just:

- Egoismus: To avoid paying taxes to a "parasite" country.
...
Imho you didn't read well at all. I stated repeatedly that imho this thing is not about money, but about general attitude towards Democracy and treatment of minorities, culture, history and last but not least the future.

I'm not even in favor of Catalan Independence, but I think - and this is a commandment for a Swiss - that Democracy prevails and that a governor who fears the free expression of its people is a dictator (and yes in Franquist tradition) better to get rid of. Gessler.
When it comes to acceptance of Spain as a "partner" in the EU among Europeans the question is different. Nobody likes Spain - also because of the fact that Spain has been continuously spilling out money from them so don't expect yourself any sympathy once the old guarde Juncker, Merkel and others are retired.
The EU has an identity crisis and Spain could be the first step to find a solution, for better or for worse.


A top-down ruling government like that one of Rajoy and Felipe is of the past, for sure. The sooner they understand, the better for them and their rotten country, as they are part of the Problem and not of the solution. And the guillotine is always waiting, just to remind everyone that the layer of civilisation might be thinner than we all wished, not only with regards to Spain.

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- Francoist Spain's regime that represses the poor catalans. That is clearly exagerated.
...
Exaggerated but not totally untrue. It's those who are in favor of Spain's central forces' violent intervention who lack heavily in terms of Democracy and its rules, and they've shown it also with regards to Swiss parties they appearently haven't a clue about neither, despite the fact that the live here and personally profit from it.

Italy btw is another planet, in comparison with Spain.
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  #387  
Old 22.10.2017, 21:03
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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Well, and I'm Swiss and I support Democracy.


Whoever is in favor of beating up voters and fears the people's free will is against. Quite easy as concept, so far. Who is frightened of voters has a problem with that. And it would be totallly unswiss, btw. We would still have to greet Gessler and the Habsburg trash if we disrespected free expression of speech.


If Spain is a real democracy able to keep up with all Western democratic standards, I fear that the answer is not so easy. Many many bad things about Spanish/Franquist/Bourbon history have not yet overcome yet (Rajoy and Aznar have been trying of rather turning the wheel back); which is a big difference to other ex-fashist countries like Germany or Italy, e.g.


30 years missing there, still. Apart from the economic situation that Spain is a real parasite of its European partners, up from the beginning.


Let's face it: Who of us would like to be a citizen of Spain, if one had the chance to choose?
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  #388  
Old 22.10.2017, 23:00
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Re: Catalan referendum

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The Catalan parliament today voted to begin the process of seceding from Spain, possibly as early as 2017.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...ins-government
Catalonia (Puigdemon) never declared the independence, and he will never do it. With 1100 companies registered to change the headquarters to Madrid and Valencia, and with the only 2 catalan banks moved to Spain, there's no way at all. Puigdemon and his people should accept that they have lost. He can decide now to declared definitely the independence for nothing and go to jail.

Good news for the Barcelona fans!
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  #389  
Old 22.10.2017, 23:09
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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Imho you didn't read well at all. I stated repeatedly that imho this thing is not about money, but about general attitude towards Democracy and treatment of minorities, culture, history and last but not least the future.

I'm not even in favor of Catalan Independence, but I think - and this is a commandment for a Swiss - that Democracy prevails and that a governor who fears the free expression of its people is a dictator (and yes in Franquist tradition) better to get rid of. Gessler.
When it comes to acceptance of Spain as a "partner" in the EU among Europeans the question is different. Nobody likes Spain - also because of the fact that Spain has been continuously spilling out money from them so don't expect yourself any sympathy once the old guarde Juncker, Merkel and others are retired.
The EU has an identity crisis and Spain could be the first step to find a solution, for better or for worse.


A top-down ruling government like that one of Rajoy and Felipe is of the past, for sure. The sooner they understand, the better for them and their rotten country, as they are part of the Problem and not of the solution. And the guillotine is always waiting, just to remind everyone that the layer of civilisation might be thinner than we all wished, not only with regards to Spain.


Exaggerated but not totally untrue. It's those who are in favor of Spain's central forces' violent intervention who lack heavily in terms of Democracy and its rules, and they've shown it also with regards to Swiss parties they appearently haven't a clue about neither, despite the fact that the live here and personally profit from it.

Italy btw is another planet, in comparison with Spain.

OMG, so much text to justify yourself.

If Spain is a Franquist country, Germany is still goberned by the Führer.
Germans are much better than yours.
-1q246N1mM0

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  #390  
Old 22.10.2017, 23:12
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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  #391  
Old 23.10.2017, 07:59
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

OK then please tell everyone


how come that if Spain is such a wonderful country, doing fine in everything, respecting culture and the free will of all of its inhabitants, has been doing a good job in overcoming the 40 years lasting Franquist burden, everything fine and everybody happy


Castilians like Rajoy, Felipe and all those who put supporters of a referendum on one level with North Corea and Venezuela


fear that an important portion of that same country (i.e. the Catalans) could vote against them and win the referendum?


Are those subjects of His Majesty just unthankful or masochists?
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  #392  
Old 23.10.2017, 12:58
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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I'm not even in favor of Catalan Independence, but I think - and this is a commandment for a Swiss - that Democracy prevails and that a governor who fears the free expression of its people is a dictator (and yes in Franquist tradition) better to get rid of.
You pretend to argue for freedom of opinion by shutting down dissent, thereby doing exactly what you claim to argue against. That's exactly what you criticize Spain for.

So very telling
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  #393  
Old 23.10.2017, 15:34
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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You pretend to argue for freedom of opinion by shutting down dissent, thereby doing exactly what you claim to argue against.
...
Not really. Who is against should have the right to vote against. Exactly what the Catalan admin tried to enhance.


In the contrary to others who sent Schlägertrupps in the old fashist tradition.


I think it's strange to be a Spanish centralist in Switzerland and keeping on beeing one taking all the profit, as it is absolutely against Swiss values being a centralist and beating up voters. Total no-go.
But a person in CH - Swiss or not - of course has the right to believe in broken eggs, if he wishes to do so.
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  #394  
Old 23.10.2017, 16:31
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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I think it's strange to be a Spanish centralist in Switzerland and keeping on beeing one taking all the profit, as it is absolutely against Swiss values being a centralist and beating up voters. Total no-go.
But a person in CH - Swiss or not - of course has the right to believe in broken eggs, if he wishes to do so.
It's a comment on your bigotry only. As usual you make up any meaning you like there to be.
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  #395  
Old 23.10.2017, 16:37
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

Why should it be bigot to state that - in this case, linked to this very point - my vision is closer to Swiss values,

while others' are different?

What's your point?

Btw. I started joining this thread when somebody compared free expression of Speach and the Catalan referendum with North Corea and Venezuela.

My point is that's it's much closer to Switzerland.
Of course this is my personal point of view, the other side for me is broken eggs, especially if they justify Madrid's abuse of power, deny Spanish political Problems, spit on Swiss electorate and it was them to come up with stuff like North Corea but get p*ssed when one asks for how good or bad is Spanish history discussion (if I'm well informed, Valle de los Caidos is always there) up till today.

For others it might be the other way around if they think this is bullsh**t. So what?

That's life in a democracy, boy.
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  #396  
Old 23.10.2017, 16:53
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

Check the quoted bolded part. It's quite simple, really. But then again perhaps even that is beyond your capabilities.
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Old 23.10.2017, 20:46
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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Check the quoted bolded part. It's quite simple, really. But then again perhaps even that is beyond your capabilities.
Don't lose your time with him.
He is clearly a separatist catalan living in Switzerland and talking the whole time about the same PROPAGANDA:

- Spain is a parasite in the EU because it receives some money. (European U.N.I.O.N. WTF)
- Catalans are repressed by a spanisch dictatorship. (hahahaha)
- Catalonia pays more taxes than the rest (Germany supports the debts from the southern, but take advantage on other aspects. Is it bad?)
- Catalans are superior than the rest of spaniards, "charnengos" is a despective word to call them despectively.
- Catalonia without Spain would be like Switzerland or Dennmark. (jaaaaaa siiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiicher)



I AM FROM GERMANY and I have lived for 3 years in Tarragona and 1 year in Sevilla and I can say that most of catalans I met there were against independence. But this people didn't say it openly because of the bad image of being against the independence. As a good german I am very direct and I like clear people, you know, and could make people speak openly with me about this topic. And I don't like to say this, but this remembers me of something that happened in my own country that I don't want to mention now.

And Spain is a great country with very good hearted people that don't deserve to be manipulated by a fanatic circle of up to 2 millions, but probably not majority at all. My woman is from Catalonia.
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  #398  
Old 23.10.2017, 21:43
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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Check the quoted bolded part. It's quite simple, really. But then again perhaps even that is beyond your capabilities.
This is the trick in a Democracy: All citizens can vote, the bright and the stupid. Quite simple, really. Even the stupid like me get it. So why don't Rajoy and Felipe?


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Don't lose your time with him.
He is clearly a separatist catalan living in Switzerland and talking the whole time about the same PROPAGANDA:
...
Of course, sure. After all, Urs Max stated I'm simply stupid, what else could I be if not one of those separatist Catalans?


See the point and what is rotten in that country?
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  #399  
Old 24.10.2017, 01:01
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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This is the trick in a Democracy: All citizens can vote, the bright and the stupid. Quite simple, really. Even the stupid like me get it. So why don't Rajoy and Felipe?



Of course, sure. After all, Urs Max stated I'm simply stupid, what else could I be if not one of those separatist Catalans?


See the point and what is rotten in that country?
You don't give any clear arguments, you just repeat the populist speech, blabla without any fundaments, and always exactly the same points.

Do you know that 1100 Companies announced they are leaving Catalonia? They are registered in Madrid and Valencia to change the address.
Do you think that's good for Catalonia? That's what you separatists are doing with your territory and Spain. You separatists are the rotten part!


http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/soz...a-1174010.html
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Old 24.10.2017, 20:31
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

https://elpais.com/ccaa/2017/10/24/c...71_099645.html (in Spanish)

Interesting the first paragraph, quoting a CUP MP (the far left, anti-capitalists that support Puigdemont, whose youth groups organised the attacks against touristic interests back in August; very peaceful guys, by the way):

El diputado de la CUP en el Parlament, Carles Riera, ha afirmado este martes que el Gobierno catalán sopesa convocar elecciones, pero ha advertido de que se opondrán "radicalmente, porque es el arma nuclear para acabar con el proceso de independencia catalán".

The CUP MP in the Catalan Parliament, Carles Riera, stated today that the Catalan Government is considering calling a snap election, but he warned that they will oppose it "radically, because that is a nuclear weapon to end with the catalan independence process".

So now it appears that the independentists don't want democratic elections , because they consider it a risk for they interests
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