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  #421  
Old 27.10.2017, 19:19
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

Interesting election results in the catalan parlament:

- JxSi and CUP cumulate together 72 votes supporting the independence
- The rest 73 politicians left the parlament.
* They need 60% to declare the independence


Only 70 politicians from the first group voted supporting the independence, that is 48% again. The same number that they had some weeks ago in the parlament.

It seems like the opposition could have stopped the declaration of the independence by abstention or voting no. (If they wouldn't have changed the rules on the way again). If this is the cause, the opposition are partially responsible for de declaration of the independence, and will have the consequences of their childisch attitude.

There's nothing to do now. But this circus will be ended hopefully soon.

Last edited by Jonesy; 27.10.2017 at 19:44.
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  #422  
Old 27.10.2017, 19:30
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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With the Scottish referendum, I wondered whether the pro-independence politicians were primarily interested in becoming big fish in a small pond. Perhaps the Catalan politicians are similar. It all seems so childish, on both sides, and to what purpose?
It's clear that they just wanted the independence to be the new Switzerland of Europe. It sounds like a joke, but this is what those politicians say in their public meetings. Like Dennmark or Switzerland is how the would be. Funny. There are in Internet a lot of information about the indoctrinations in the catalan schools and this is been done over decades... to explode today with an ilogical result that will destroy their economy.

Over 1500 companies have already changed the headquarters to Spain, included the two big catalan banks that won't pay taxes in Catalonia.


I can understand the case of Scottland or UK because they do it intelligently, looking for a compromise that is good for both sides. But catalan separatists will just to be out ASAP lying to their people and destroying their region. I cannot understand this people.
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  #423  
Old 27.10.2017, 19:52
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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Interesting election results in the catalan parlament:

- JxSi and CUP cumulate together 72 votes supporting the independence
- The rest 73 politicians left the parlament.


Only 70 politicians from the first group voted supporting the independence, that is 48% again. The same number that they had some weeks ago in the parlament.

It seems like the opposition could have stopped the declaration of the independence by abstention or voting no. (If they wouldn't have changed the rules on the way again). If this is the cause, the opposition are partially responsible for de declaration of the independence, and will have the consequences of their childisch attitude.

There's nothing to do now. But this circus will be ended hopefully soon.
The catalan parliament has 135 seats, so JxSi (62) + CUP (10) build a majority.

Only Ciudadados (25), PSC (16) and PP (11) left (the legal services of the parliament warned that the voting was illegal, because the laws concerned were suspended by the spanish Constitutional Court); the 11 MP of CSQP stayed. 8 of them showed they were voting against, 3 did not show their vote.

According to the reports, there were 70 votes for it, 10 against and 2 abstentions. That is 82, not the 83 that should result from JxSi+CUP+CSQP. Maybe someone was sick, or he/she went to the loo.
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  #424  
Old 27.10.2017, 20:03
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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The catalan parliament has 135 seats, so JxSi (62) + CUP (10) build a majority.

Only Ciudadados (25), PSC (16) and PP (11) left (the legal services of the parliament warned that the voting was illegal, because the laws concerned were suspended by the spanish Constitutional Court); the 11 MP of CSQP stayed. 8 of them showed they were voting against, 3 did not show their vote.

According to the reports, there were 70 votes for it, 10 against and 2 abstentions. That is 82, not the 83 that should result from JxSi+CUP+CSQP. Maybe someone was sick, or he/she went to the loo.
Thanks for the informations. Anyway that results are strange and doesn't seem to be enough for the declaration. I read it should be 60%.

70/135 => almost 52%
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  #425  
Old 27.10.2017, 20:10
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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  #426  
Old 27.10.2017, 20:28
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

Rajoy just announced the destitution of the catalan government and calls catalan elections to be held on 21 December
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  #427  
Old 27.10.2017, 20:33
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

Oh dear. This much for an independence vote ...

Spanish PM dissolves Catalan parliament
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41783289
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  #428  
Old 28.10.2017, 02:36
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

The declaration of the DEPENDENCE.

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/auslan...a-1175150.html


Catalonia is in Spanien more independent than a State in the USA, or ein Länder in Germany. The can lose their autonomy now.
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  #429  
Old 29.10.2017, 00:07
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

One of them is still a "Land".


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Except you don't accept differing opinions on certain topics, at least going by that quote.
...
Only because I don't share them, I don't remember to have beaten up any voters or those who don’t share my opinion nor did I declare illegal any Regional or Cantonal Parliament nor did I make any people repeat elections because I didn't like the result, nor did or do I put the case for those who do.
That's the difference.


http://www.spiegel.de/politik/auslan...a-1174197.html


http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-10-2...actics/9074224


Freiheit ist nicht alles, aber ohne Freiheit ist alles nichts.


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After all, Urs Max stated I'm simply stupid,
Didn't take long for you to prove my point.
Again, also if you think that only the enlightened should have the right to vote i.e. you prove to have a very antique idea of legitimation of a government which is closer to aristocracy than to Democracy you have no clue of,


let's Kohelet to give an answer to your point (btw. I do appreciate that this thread has been citing in so many languages):


ynIa'ê-~g: yTi[.d:äy"w> %lE+Ah %v,xoåB; lysiŞK.h;w> AvêaroB. wyn"åy[e ‘~k'x'h,(


`~L'(Ku-ta, hr<îq.yI dx'Şa, hr<îq.Miv,
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  #430  
Old 29.10.2017, 16:10
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/auslan...a-1175406.html

1M people on the streets to support an united Spain.



Yes, I know your explanation:

200.000 cars...
20.000 buses...
2.000 planes...

...arrived during the night with spanish people when the catalans were quietly sleeping and dreaming of their independence.


That's why Puigdemont &co doesn't want any new elections.
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  #431  
Old 29.10.2017, 16:39
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

Following your link, it says the organizer speaks of "1M", the police cite rather a third of it.

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That's why Puigdemont &co doesn't want any new elections.
They don't want because the past election is enough legitimation to a current admin if its term of office isn't over yet.

If the reason is not that the same admin resigned but other forces anihilate the voters' expression,
it's the contrary of what Democracy means.


That has nothing to do with Catalonia and Independence, but is just minimum common sense.
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  #432  
Old 29.10.2017, 16:59
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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Following your link, it says the organizer speaks of "1M", the police cite rather a third of it.


They don't want because the past election is enough legitimation to a current admin if its term of office isn't over yet.

If the reason is not that the same admin resigned but other forces anihilate the voters' expression,
it's the contrary of what Democracy means.


That has nothing to do with Catalonia and Independence, but is just minimum common sense.
Laut Guardia Civil there are 1.35M people on the streets.

The real value cannot be a bunch of people from Madrid.
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  #433  
Old 29.10.2017, 18:25
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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Good, it seems pretty clear. They shouldn't be afraid of a new referendum then.
I am not sure if it is fear,it is simply illegal.catalonia should take the steos to legalize it first.

Off topic, I am really started to get sick of changing a country' destination with only 50% of votes.
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  #434  
Old 29.10.2017, 18:48
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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Off topic, I am really started to get sick of changing a country' destination with only 50% of votes.
As a matter of fact, the Catalan Statute of 2006 establishes that a reform of its main principles required 2/3 of the votes in the parliament.

http://www.congreso.es/consti/estatu...ub=1&fin_sub=1

That means 90 votes out of 135, and this is why the parliamentary sessions of 6 and 7 september that approved the "referendum law" and the "transitional law" are a big offense to the own Catalan Institutions. But who cares about these minor details?
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  #435  
Old 29.10.2017, 18:51
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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As a matter of fact, the Catalan Statute of 2006 establishes that a reform of its main principles required 2/3 of the votes in the parliament.

http://www.congreso.es/consti/estatu...ub=1&fin_sub=1

That means 90 votes out of 135, and this is why the parliamentary sessions of 6 and 7 september that approved the "referendum law" and the "transitional law" are a big offense to the own Catalan Institutions. But who cares about these minor details?
For give my ignorance,what about ghe referandum, is there any requirement for min participation and what is the acceptance criteria,2/3 as well?
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  #436  
Old 29.10.2017, 19:02
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

I understand that there is not a general rule outlined in the Constitution or the Statute concerning criteria for referenda in general, so it would depend on what is established in the law passed to call it. AFAIK no requirements were set to either the turnout or the result. But the law calling it should not have been approved, to start with.

For a modification of the Constitution or Statute of Autonomy, my understanding is that the qualified majority is needed in the Parliment, but once it is approved by the Parliament and submitted to a referendum to be approved by the people, then a simple majority is sufficient.
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  #437  
Old 29.10.2017, 20:42
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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Off topic, I am really started to get sick of changing a country' destination with only 50% of votes.
Best leave Switzerland then.
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  #438  
Old 29.10.2017, 20:54
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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Off topic, I am really started to get sick of changing a country' destination with only 50% of votes.
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Best leave Switzerland then.
And most other countries too.
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  #439  
Old 29.10.2017, 21:15
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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Best leave Switzerland then.
Where to?

No but seriously very critical changes are being made while half the population is against them;brexit and Erdogan's referandum are just two of the examples.I am no expert but one idea can be that overall acceptance of a proposal can be done when the total number of yays are 2/3s of the voters (either they turn out or not).

Anyways this is going really off topic,best to discuss in another thread maybe.
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  #440  
Old 29.10.2017, 22:41
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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Good, it seems pretty clear. They shouldn't be afraid of a new referendum then.
"They have fear of us!" hahahah. Can't you see what is that type of thinking?

That thinkig of fear on the other side is just the indoctrination of the separatists. To think they are stronger and the other side is weak. Yes we can beat them! ------->>>>Nodoby is afraid of anything. This is just the constitution rules. Ant that's all. Every gobernment will fight to keep the country as one. And for that is the constitution done. In the case of the UK, they were separated countries before, so they reflected this possible separation in ther constitution, but Catalonia wasn't ever a country by itself. Even if they teach that in the schools to the children.


Anyway that majority will be soon reflected in the results of the election in a month.

The ones that are afraid are the separatists.

But in other hand I really think that a real referendum could have been the fast solution but look at the UK. That was the biggest error of Cameron........... and now what's happenning with the country. The Spanish Constitution doesn't allow it, and it's normal... Which country would make that easy? USA, UK, Germnay? A fragmentation is always a huge loss for the power of the one big country, even if separatists don't accept it. This is so. Catalonia would be nothing out of the EU and without Spain who is the cultomer of 1/3 of their exportations.
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