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  #441  
Old 29.10.2017, 22:55
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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As a matter of fact, the Catalan Statute of 2006 establishes that a reform of its main principles required 2/3 of the votes in the parliament.

http://www.congreso.es/consti/estatu...ub=1&fin_sub=1

That means 90 votes out of 135, and this is why the parliamentary sessions of 6 and 7 september that approved the "referendum law" and the "transitional law" are a big offense to the own Catalan Institutions. But who cares about these minor details?

Yes, this is an important point. The catalan parlament doesn't even fullfill the catalan constitution.
And this is very bad. They cannot change what they need on the way to be independent. What is that for a banana republic?
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  #442  
Old 30.10.2017, 00:28
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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I am not sure if it is fear,it is simply illegal.catalonia should take the steos to legalize it first.

Off topic, I am really started to get sick of changing a country' destination with only 50% of votes.
This is more or less it.

1) if there was a vote, it is quite clear that Catalonia would want to remain part of Spain
2) Some people don't believe that. But they are mistaken. Unfortunately we can't test that because a vote would be illegal. The constitution says so.
3) We can't change the constitution because if we did Catalonia would vote to gain independence.

the logic is baffling, no?
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  #443  
Old 30.10.2017, 08:24
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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Yes, this is an important point. The catalan parlament doesn't even fullfill the catalan constitution.
And this is very bad. They cannot change what they need on the way to be independent. What is that for a banana republic?
but isn't that how a revolution works?

a Catalan independence would be a revolution, just like the French revolution, the Russian, American independence etc. - and is rarely peaceful.

the question is, of course, if anyone prefers such a scenario.
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  #444  
Old 30.10.2017, 10:14
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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This is more or less it.

1) if there was a vote, it is quite clear that Catalonia would want to remain part of Spain
2) Some people don't believe that. But they are mistaken. Unfortunately we can't test that because a vote would be illegal. The constitution says so.
3) We can't change the constitution because if we did Catalonia would vote to gain independence.

the logic is baffling, no?
I am not super familiar with the Spanish system but can Catalonia try to form a group in the government with other regions who would want to change the constitution make the referendums legal?
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  #445  
Old 30.10.2017, 11:34
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

catalan-independence-referendum-vote-galicia.jpg
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  #446  
Old 30.10.2017, 12:43
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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but isn't that how a revolution works?

a Catalan independence would be a revolution, just like the French revolution, the Russian, American independence etc. - and is rarely peaceful.

the question is, of course, if anyone prefers such a scenario.
In that case it doesn't make any sense to vote in the Catalan Parlament or ask people what they want. They just need weapons, guillotines and bombs, like what the basque country did with ETA some time ago.

But I don't think that most Catalans want that, so they should start with the Catalan Constitution, even if this is not aproved by the Spanisch one. But it's a great way to start with democracy. This is really easy:

1.- Define the rules in the Constitution
2.- Vote for it, and in the case of approval....
3.- .....fullfill the rules

Last edited by Jonesy; 30.10.2017 at 15:06.
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  #447  
Old 30.10.2017, 13:27
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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but isn't that how a revolution works?

a Catalan independence would be a revolution, just like the French revolution, the Russian, American independence etc. - and is rarely peaceful.

the question is, of course, if anyone prefers such a scenario.
This whole episode just shows how bonkers having a codified constitution is in the modern world. Looking back over the centuries, has there ever been a revolution that was legal? It was illegal for the Berlin Wall to come down until it actually happened. Pointing to a set of rules written decades ago to try and stop this breakaway is beyond idiotic.

It was the similar with Brexit. Such a fuss was made over the referendum being "unconstitutional", and in the end it was a fuss for nothing. How can you have constitutions that don't allow for future change nor allow for the wishes of the not yet born people who have to live under them?
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  #448  
Old 30.10.2017, 14:20
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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It was the similar with Brexit. Such a fuss was made over the referendum being "unconstitutional", and in the end it was a fuss for nothing. How can you have constitutions that don't allow for future change nor allow for the wishes of the not yet born people who have to live under them?
This simply shows the land of fairytales you're living in. The UK parliament explicitly created a law ordering the Brexit vote be held, it doesn't get any more legal than this as long as the constitution (difficult in the case of the UK) doesn't prohibit such a vote.
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  #449  
Old 30.10.2017, 16:19
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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This whole episode just shows how bonkers having a codified constitution is in the modern world. Looking back over the centuries, has there ever been a revolution that was legal? It was illegal for the Berlin Wall to come down until it actually happened. Pointing to a set of rules written decades ago to try and stop this breakaway is beyond idiotic.

It was the similar with Brexit. Such a fuss was made over the referendum being "unconstitutional", and in the end it was a fuss for nothing. How can you have constitutions that don't allow for future change nor allow for the wishes of the not yet born people who have to live under them?
What time do you live in? The Middle ages?

That revolutionary mentality would destroy the catalan economy and would let it isolated for decades? Is it worth it? Their economy is in fact starting to suffer as the company exodus(1600+ business) takes place, starting with the burocracy, changing headquarters, etc.

Continuing the first question: We live in the time of GLOBALIZATION, AGREEMENTS, RULES TO FULLFILL and DIPLOMACY.

Last edited by Jonesy; 30.10.2017 at 16:31.
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  #450  
Old 30.10.2017, 16:55
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

For those who've missed it, Puigedemont and some members of his government have fled Spain.
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  #451  
Old 30.10.2017, 16:59
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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I am not super familiar with the Spanish system but can Catalonia try to form a group in the government with other regions who would want to change the constitution make the referendums legal?
That basically means the Basques as the other independence movements aren't sufficiently organized (as far as I am aware) to have any political representation in Madrid.

I don't think that even if they got together with the Basque separatists that they would have anything near a majority, even if you graciously assume they could draw some defectors from the other parties.
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  #452  
Old 30.10.2017, 17:09
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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For those who've missed it, Puigedemont and some members of his government have fled Spain.
so now Belgium is hosting a fugitive? brave move to break the relations with Spain
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  #453  
Old 30.10.2017, 17:19
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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For those who've missed it, Puigedemont and some members of his government have fled Spain.
So much for standing up for your principles.

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so now Belgium is hosting a fugitive? brave move to break the relations with Spain
Well, one of their ministers said the other day he thought they might be able to claim asylum.
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  #454  
Old 30.10.2017, 18:12
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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Well, one of their ministers said the other day he thought they might be able to claim asylum.
I was under the impression that EU members cannot grant asylum to one another's citizens.

Remember Horst Mahler?

So by granting asylum to Puigdemont they would be implying that he isn't a Spanish citizen but a Catalan one, which would be a de facto recognition of Catalonia as an independent and non-EU country.
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  #455  
Old 30.10.2017, 18:55
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

He should have fleed to Gibraltar

Well, hope he'll enjoy 30 years in prison. Belgium will send him back soon.
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  #456  
Old 30.10.2017, 19:28
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

Best news of the day, besides the normality, is that the independentist parties have confirmed that they will concur to the elections in december.

My biggest concern was that they may boycott them and try to organize their own. Of course, organizing parallel elections would be much more difficult now under article 155 than it was organizing the referendum. But still, if they had decided not to concur and their voters stayed at home, it would be difficult to consider december elections normal and valid if the turnout were around 45% only.

Apparently, PdeCat and ERC will not renew their coalition, so presumably ERC will go up and PdeCat, the heirs of the party that governed Catalonia for so many years, will get a pretty bad result. This raises the question as to whether there will just be a transfer of votes between parties within each side, keeping the balance of pro-independentist/pro-union sides unchanged, or if the balance itself will change.
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Old 30.10.2017, 19:43
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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I was under the impression that EU members cannot grant asylum to one another's citizens.

Remember Horst Mahler?

So by granting asylum to Puigdemont they would be implying that he isn't a Spanish citizen but a Catalan one, which would be a de facto recognition of Catalonia as an independent and non-EU country.
"BRUSSELS (Reuters) - Granting Catalan leader Carles Puigdemont political asylum in Belgium would be “not unrealistic” if he asks for it, the Belgian migration minister said, underlining his country’s position as a contrarian voice in the Spanish standoff."

"While there was no indication Puigdemont was hoping to come to Belgium, the country is one of few members of the European Union where EU citizens can ask for political asylum.

“It is not unrealistic if you look at the situation,” Belgium’s migration minister, Theo Francken, told Belgian broadcaster VTM.

“They are already talking about a prison sentence,” Francken, a member of Flemish nationalist party N-VA, said. “The question is to what extent he would get a fair trial.”

It would be difficult for Spain to extradite Puigdemont in such a case, he said."

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-sp...KBN1CY05Q?il=0
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  #458  
Old 30.10.2017, 19:44
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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Best news of the day, besides the normality, is that the independentist parties have confirmed that they will concur to the elections in december.

My biggest concern was that they may boycott them and try to organize their own. Of course, organizing parallel elections would be much more difficult now under article 155 than it was organizing the referendum. But still, if they had decided not to concur and their voters stayed at home, it would be difficult to consider december elections normal and valid if the turnout were around 45% only.

Apparently, PdeCat and ERC will not renew their coalition, so presumably ERC will go up and PdeCat, the heirs of the party that governed Catalonia for so many years, will get a pretty bad result. This raises the question as to whether there will just be a transfer of votes between parties within each side, keeping the balance of pro-independentist/pro-union sides unchanged, or if the balance itself will change.
Let's assume you are correct. Do you expect Madrid to take some new actions to make catalans cosy to being part of Spain? That would be a win for Catalans as well
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  #459  
Old 30.10.2017, 20:07
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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Let's assume you are correct. Do you expect Madrid to take some new actions to make catalans cosy to being part of Spain? That would be a win for Catalans as well
It would be silly not to do so, but with Rajoy at the helm everything is possible

In my opinion, the best scenario would be that pro-union parties get a majority and PSC (socialists) are the most voted party in that side. That would guarantee negotiations with the government in Madrid, and since it was recently reported that PSOE (socialists in the rest of Spain) had agreed with PP to initiate talks for the change of the Constitution - not necessarily to grant Catalonia a referendum; what they advocate for is a federal model which I doubt would find the support of the majority of the population -, we would at least be on the right path.

If Ciudadanos win, I do not think they would push the negotiations with Madrid, so I am afraid that the time until the day when the independentist camp would come back stronger and reopen the topic would just be wasted.

If it is the independentists who win, this would put a lot of pressure onto Madrid and it would make it practically impossible for them to ignore the calls for dialogue. But dialogue is only possible if the Catalan government respects the legal framework; with a confrontational attitude like in the past weeks and continuous breaches to the law, Madrid will never sit to a table.
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Old 31.10.2017, 00:05
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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This whole episode just shows how bonkers having a codified constitution is in the modern world. Looking back over the centuries, has there ever been a revolution that was legal? It was illegal for the Berlin Wall to come down until it actually happened. Pointing to a set of rules written decades ago to try and stop this breakaway is beyond idiotic.

It was the similar with Brexit. Such a fuss was made over the referendum being "unconstitutional", and in the end it was a fuss for nothing. How can you have constitutions that don't allow for future change nor allow for the wishes of the not yet born people who have to live under them?
"A constitutional amendment refers to the modification of the constitution of a nation or state. In many jurisdictions the text of the constitution itself is altered; in others the text is not changed, but the amendments change its effect. The method of modification is typically written into the constitution itself."
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