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  #461  
Old 31.10.2017, 01:21
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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Apparently, PdeCat and ERC will not renew their coalition, so presumably ERC will go up and PdeCat, the heirs of the party that governed Catalonia for so many years, will get a pretty bad result. This raises the question as to whether there will just be a transfer of votes between parties within each side, keeping the balance of pro-independentist/pro-union sides unchanged, or if the balance itself will change.
According the polls the balance will stay pretty much the same.
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  #462  
Old 31.10.2017, 11:33
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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According the polls the balance will stay pretty much the same.
Be sure, like in the brexit..... Catalans have more information now about the lies of the separatists, like: they would not stay in the EU and many companies would leave... the banks are already out.

On the other hand, many people could think that they have already lost so much that they do not want to stay.

Anyway the results will be very different.
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  #463  
Old 31.10.2017, 12:28
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

Charles Michel, Belgium's prime minister, is quoted for saying that asylum for Puigdemont is "absolutely not on the agenda". Reportedly, Puigdemont won't request asylum in Belgium to begin with.
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  #464  
Old 31.10.2017, 12:37
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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It would be silly not to do so, but with Rajoy at the helm everything is possible
Quite the contrary, they can't (at least not for a few years). Not after Puigdemont tried to force his demands onto the government.
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If it is the independentists who win, this would put a lot of pressure onto Madrid and it would make it practically impossible for them to ignore the calls for dialogue. But dialogue is only possible if the Catalan government respects the legal framework; with a confrontational attitude like in the past weeks and continuous breaches to the law, Madrid will never sit to a table.
Puigdemont didn't call or ask for talks, he tried to force them onto the government. No government will accept that. Take a different stance, perhaps use some patience, and the result may be entirely different.

What the Catalans are doing now should have been done instead of holding that moronic referendum and declaring independence - find partners and work to get the constitution changed.

Puigdemont gambled and lost, minimum sentence for rebellion is 15 years. Though if he stops trying to force his own demands onto the government he'll probably get a deal that will find him guilty but for a much lesser charge, the central government can't be interested in making him a martyr.
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  #465  
Old 31.10.2017, 20:40
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

But the Catalan who want independence are and have been less than 50% (and many who are against it did probably not even speak up).
So what's democratic about it?
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  #466  
Old 31.10.2017, 20:51
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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Now that would be a really unintelligent way to deal with separatist leaders. He is not a terrorist (like ETA). It seems he and his likes are going to pay for daring to challenge the monarchy, above everything..
I mean, I was rather against Catalan independence, but the way the whole story was dealt with made me change my opinion. All the Spanish people I know are against it, and I understand their point of view very well, but still...
interesting point to change the opinion. hahaha.

Don't worry for Putschdämon, he will be just a couple of years in jail, enough time to keep him appart. There's no interest on a new martyr.
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  #467  
Old 31.10.2017, 20:54
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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But the Catalan who want independence are and have been less than 50% (and many who are against it did probably not even speak up).
So what's democratic about it?
Independentists doesn't know about democracy... they just change the rules for their convenience.
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  #468  
Old 31.10.2017, 21:39
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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But the Catalan who want independence are and have been less than 50% (and many who are against it did probably not even speak up).
...
"Probably" can mean everything. We will never know the outcome of a referendum in which the voters hadn't been punched up by Guardia Civil and hindered from a free voting, and if the whole thing hadn't been declared illegal by the central government, to begin with.


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Independentists doesn't know about democracy... ...
If this were the case, the US still would be a sort of a bunch of 13 colonies of her majesty, the Swiss would be subjects of the Austrians (if not to those non-good Habsburg or Bourbon, long live the Republic and btw where have we put the guillotine?) and we still had to greet their hat (not that during the French Revolution that was uncommon, but Gessler's hat was simply itchier and uglier).
It's for sure not to the Spanish to teach the rest of the world, not to speak about the Swiss, what is Democracy.
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But I also have no idea what was to be done, unfortunately.
Why not?
What is so difficult in letting people stay where and with whom they want, if as an Independent country, a Willensnation, in a federation or with whom they like?
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  #469  
Old 31.10.2017, 21:44
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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"Probably" can mean everything. We will never know the outcome of a referendum in which the voters hadn't been punched up by Guardia Civil and hindered from a free voting, and if the whole thing hadn't been declared illegal by the central government.



If this were the case, the US still would be a sort of a bunch of 13 colonies of her majesty, the Swiss would be subjects of the Austrians (if not to those non-good Habsburg or Bourbon, long live the Republic and btw where have we put the guillotine?) and we still had to greet their hat (not that during the French Revolution that was uncommon, but Gessler's hat was simply itchier and uglier).
It's for sure not to the Spanish to teach the rest of the world, not to speak about the Swiss, what is Democracy.

Did americans declare the independence with elections and democracy? So!
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  #470  
Old 31.10.2017, 21:48
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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Did americans declare the independence with elections and democracy? So!
What do you mean by that?

Afaik Washington did reject the crown.


Or are you implying that the Catalans should, prior to any referendum, make war on centralist Spain?
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  #471  
Old 31.10.2017, 22:09
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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What do you mean by that?

Afaik Washington did reject the crown.


Or are you implying that the Catalans should, prior to any referendum, make war on centralist Spain?
I am not the one to say what they have to do. I am just saying my humble opinion as somebody who lived there.

I am saying that independence doesn't come with peace.......

Learn this point:

Look at a map of the world: Every single border that you see there cost many lives and blood...

That's why nothing's gonna happen in Catalonia. Spain and Catalonia aren't real conflictive territories. This is just an artificial conflict that is not grounded in a real problem of identity or economic pressure. This is like a boy that discuss with his parents because he is not getting enough money and he gets anngry and sleeps some days with some friends as a menace. Puigdemont is destroying his image day by day...


Have a good evening :-)
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  #472  
Old 31.10.2017, 22:22
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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I am saying that independence doesn't come with peace...
...
Many of us hoped the Constantinian, more precisely Metternich aera where Independence is possible only by fire and sword, by fighting against undemocratic oppressors, was over. Spain is an evident hint that this point might not be true yet.


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Learn this point: Look at a map of the world: Every single border that you see there cost many lives and blood...
...
That might not be completely untrue. However, on the other hand, absence of borders is no guarantee of sparing live and blood either.

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...
That's why nothing's gonna happen in Catalonia. Spain and Catalonia aren't real conflictive territories. This is just an artificial conflict that is not grounded in a real problem of identity or economic pressure.
...
If this is that clear, why not letting them have their damned referendum and the government they decided for?

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Have a good evening :-)
Thx, have a good evening, too

Last edited by Bucentaure; 31.10.2017 at 22:32.
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  #473  
Old 31.10.2017, 23:05
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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Many of us hoped the Constantinian, more precisely Metternich aera where Independence is possible only by fire and sword, by fighting against undemocratic oppressors, was over. Spain is an evident hint that this point might not be true yet.



That might not be completely untrue. However, on the other hand, absence of borders is no guarantee of sparing live and blood either.

If this is that clear, why not letting them have their damned referendum and the government they decided for?

Thx, have a good evening, too


This is not completely untrue = It's true! WTF (hahahaha)

I would really support that referendum, BUT I am just a person and a country is a much complicated stuff. Let's democracy do its function.

A country must protect his unity as a matter of protection! Is that so complicated to understand? This isn't just in Spain, every european country has this in the constitution and will try to keep them all together. And it's nothing to do with Francos or Hitlers.......

Anyway I am not saying that catalans are not allowed to decide their independence. If they keep on it, they should get it! BUT let's do it without manipulation, lying to the people with false promises and to the world, crying in demagogic videos on youtube and using fake blood in the demonstrations to get the attention of mass media.

In some weeks catalans will have the chance to decide their future in a democratic way. Now they are much better informed about the lies of the separatists. And they know much better the hidden side of all of this. So they have the decision in their hands. If they vote massively to the separatist parties, the separatists win, even if they are brainwashed and want a new Kosovo. It's their problem; BUT if they lose, let's apply the democratic rules and let's forget this conflict for some years before catalonia breaks apart. And this is what's going to happen!

The biggest problem that I see in the cut that Puigdemont &co have made in the catalan society that is now doomed to failure. The problem now is inside Catalonia... like a virus.


Sweet dreams
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  #474  
Old 01.11.2017, 00:43
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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This is not completely untrue = It's true! WTF (hahahaha)
...
It can be true. Which doesn't mean it would always be true.
And even if it were always true, it doesn't imply that the alternative would be a priori less harmful.

Btw. Spain, not only with regards to the actual situation, is a very helpful illustration of this concept.


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Let's democracy do its function.
...
Which so far is not yet working properly in Spain. Nor in the EU (and it's thanks to this referendum that it's been showing up so clearly. And this info is precious to the Swiss).
Maybe not so surprising if we consider the history of many of its leading countries.


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A country must protect his unity as a matter of protection! Is that so complicated to understand? This isn't just in Spain, every european country has this in the constitution and will try to keep them all together. And it's nothing to do with Francos or Hitlers.......
...
Apart from the fact that it's the same EU that has been proclaiming to enhance a Europe made of regions (which means par force that the power of its member countries has to dimuish),

we have in recent history many examples of a country's division (and I'm not talking about Yugoslavia) which prevented wars and was not for the worst. Among them nowadays EU members, btw., but not only.


And you know something? I don't care about Spain's silly constitution (I wouldn't care even about the Swiss one if my Canton were in danger to be invaded by Bern). Spain is a rotten country, a complete failure, if its only concern is for its endangered "unity" and not for its citizens' integrity.


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Anyway I am not saying that catalans are not allowed to decide their independence. If they keep on it, they should get it! BUT let's do it without manipulation, lying to the people with false promises and to the world, crying in demagogic videos on youtube and using fake blood in the demonstrations to get the attention of mass media.

In some weeks catalans will have the chance to decide their future in a democratic way. Now they are much better informed about the lies of the separatists. And they know much better the hidden side of all of this.
...
Now you are implying again that the voter is stupid. Which shouldn't have any voting rights as the result would be too dangerous for a society.
Besides any question of how come one can still believe in that anachronistic hypodermic theory, top-down communication between the Monarch/authority on the one throne and the illiterate, uninformed peasant to be ruled.


And then once again I really ask myself where you grew up to have such a deep pre-modern, anti-democratical credo.

Last edited by Bucentaure; 01.11.2017 at 00:54.
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  #475  
Old 01.11.2017, 09:46
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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It can be true. Which doesn't mean it would always be true.
And even if it were always true, it doesn't imply that the alternative would be a priori less harmful.

Btw. Spain, not only with regards to the actual situation, is a very helpful illustration of this concept.



Which so far is not yet working properly in Spain. Nor in the EU (and it's thanks to this referendum that it's been showing up so clearly. And this info is precious to the Swiss).
Maybe not so surprising if we consider the history of many of its leading countries.



Apart from the fact that it's the same EU that has been proclaiming to enhance a Europe made of regions (which means par force that the power of its member countries has to dimuish),

we have in recent history many examples of a country's division (and I'm not talking about Yugoslavia) which prevented wars and was not for the worst. Among them nowadays EU members, btw., but not only.


And you know something? I don't care about Spain's silly constitution (I wouldn't care even about the Swiss one if my Canton were in danger to be invaded by Bern). Spain is a rotten country, a complete failure, if its only concern is for its endangered "unity" and not for its citizens' integrity.



Now you are implying again that the voter is stupid. Which shouldn't have any voting rights as the result would be too dangerous for a society.
Besides any question of how come one can still believe in that anachronistic hypodermic theory, top-down communication between the Monarch/authority on the one throne and the illiterate, uninformed peasant to be ruled.


And then once again I really ask myself where you grew up to have such a deep pre-modern, anti-democratical credo.

hahaha, antridemocratic and -you forgot- fachist...

so indoctrinated
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  #476  
Old 01.11.2017, 12:05
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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I'm not so sure about the identity problem though. If you listen to Catalans they really think of themselves as being, well, different. Hard to accept that probably, but I also remember Russian friends being amused at Ukrainians considering themselves a different nation. (according to their view, Ukrainian language was only an archaic and unrefined version of Russian, on which subject I'm totally ignorant so I can't really comment about it)

Probably a federation would be the solution, but extremely unlikely since Spain will always be a monarchy.
A federation can be a monarchy. I don't see any fundamental reason why this wouldn't work. Even far more losely connected nations can share a monarch. Think of the Commonwealth. This might even be an elegant solution (as it was for Britain back then) as the more nationalist and unionist types in Spain would see the monarchy as a guaranatee that ties are not totally being severed, whereas the more pragmatic Catalans would see the monrachy as just a symbolic institution that can be ignored when it suits them, but that still provides some pomp and ceremony to amuse those who like such things.

The Scottish independence vote also proposed to retain the monarchy for much the same reason.

Maybe the Catalans aspiration to be a republic from day one is tactically flawed. They can always quietly write the king out of their constitution 20 years or so down the road. That might have been a wiser approach.
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Old 01.11.2017, 14:38
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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Except you don't accept differing opinions on certain topics, at least going by that quote.
Only because I don't share them
By defining what opinion is to be held by a "real" Swiss you deny the rights you claim to stand for to those with a different opinion. Typically SVP double standards.

Besides, by calling Spain a democracy you simply show your level of ignorance, your complete lack of knowledge of even the most fundamental facts. Spain is a monarchy.
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  #478  
Old 01.11.2017, 15:14
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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By defining what opinion is to be held by a "real" Swiss you deny the rights you claim to stand for to those with a different opinion. Typically SVP double standards.
...
Even SVP don't punch you up if you have a different opinion. Nor would I.

Guardia Civil does, and the Spanish central government oppress free election and arrest elected admins.


That's the difference.


P.S. Yes, a monarchy and a centralist government would be a strange thing to pursue for a "real" Swiss, I insist on that. Also if that thought might exist among some, which is perfectly fine, albeit kind of "odd". Fact is that we all profit from the situation i.e. that CH is no monarchy nor a centralist state (nor something with such a bloody history like Spain). Which imho is a conquest and a Milestone. Switzerland is so much ahead, with regards to Spain, at least on that field.


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Besides, by calling Spain a democracy you simply show your level of ignorance, your complete lack of knowledge of even the most fundamental facts. Spain is a monarchy.
You haven't ever heard about the difference between the concept of Democracy and that one of a Republic, have you?


Btw. Spain hasn't always been a monarchy either. If the king doesn't want to Keep on being king of Catalonia, too (appearently he cannot or he doesn't want to speak Catalan in the first place), he could have that, if he insists ...
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  #479  
Old 01.11.2017, 15:25
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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A federation can be a monarchy. I don't see any fundamental reason why this wouldn't work.
That probably depends on the type of monarchy.

In a parliamentary m., where the royals typically have merely ceremonial roles (the Dutch and Swedish come to mind) you can probably have something like a federation, reltively easily. But in a constitutional monarchy such as Spain, where the monarch still has legal powers which by definition is centered on her/him (no effective law without the monarch signing it into effectiveness, for example) and thereby centralised power structures, there has to be a certain amount of centralism.

So for Spain to move towards federation the whole thing may need to change, starting with the monarchy itself. Doing so will take more than a relatively few minority separatists, and way way longer.

Last edited by Urs Max; 01.11.2017 at 15:35.
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Old 01.11.2017, 15:25
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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Which so far is not yet working properly in Spain. Nor in the EU (and it's thanks to this referendum that it's been showing up so clearly. And this info is precious to the Swiss).
Can you explain why democracy is not working well in Spain? Maybe we have different vision of democracy, but in mine, it is based on the respect of the laws (in the case of Spain, it happens that the current Constitution was approved not so long ago by 90% of the Catalans). Has the government broke or amended a law at its convenience?
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