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  #481  
Old 01.11.2017, 16:02
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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That probably depends on the type of monarchy.

In a parliamentary m., where the royals typically have merely ceremonial roles (the Dutch and Swedish come to mind) you can probably have something like a federation, reltively easily.
There can be different levels of federations, but typically creating a federation is about devolving most powers of decison to sub units, but the central government will always retain some residual powers and authority. So for example if Spain were to become a fully fledged federation, there would probably still be a joint military, diplomatic and ambassadorial corps, a supreme court and other functions such as maybe environmental oversight, transport planning, inter-regional coordination functions, maybe also coordination in education, lots of things like that.


As such, there would still be some residual government function at the central level, even if strongly reduced. The king would then continue to be king over that, while otherwise drifting more into a ceremonial role.
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  #482  
Old 01.11.2017, 16:10
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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As such, there would still be some residual government function at the central level, even if strongly reduced. The king would then continue to be king over that, while otherwise drifting more into a ceremonial role.
... which runs counter the king's interest (and also counter the government's [partially implicit] instructions). He won't cede those powers unless forced to, for which one province is far from enough.
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  #483  
Old 01.11.2017, 16:37
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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... which runs counter the king's interest (and also counter the government's [partially implicit] instructions). He won't cede those powers unless forced to, for which one province is far from enough.
If the alternative (in the long run) is that people get so fed up with the monarchy that they want to depose him entirely, it would be in the king's interests to modernize his role, even if that means reducing it.

History has shown that in virtually all cases of monarchies surviving, it is because they were prepared to reduce their power, often to residual levels.

Monarchies that were less flexible are for the most part now history.
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  #484  
Old 01.11.2017, 19:19
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

First result from polls in Catalonia:

https://ep01.epimg.net/politica/imag...l_recorte1.jpg

It's looks like it is not 90% against 10%. The number will be veeeery different than that. Perhaps Franko is pushing people to vote for the unity...

Last edited by 3Wishes; 02.11.2017 at 00:41. Reason: changed huge image to link
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  #485  
Old 01.11.2017, 20:09
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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Can you explain why democracy is not working well in Spain? Maybe we have different vision of democracy, but in mine, it is based on the respect of the laws ...
...
So far I'm with you, as long as those laws are made by an elected Parliament.

However, there's one even more fundamental point, apart from what you cited, and on a higher, supreme level. Or let's say it's the prerequisite of any law to pass.
I.e. that the electorate is asked, elections held, its outcomes respected, especially in basic assets of society.

I'm aware that the balance between democracy i.e. the people's expression (with all its limits, we can ask Frege) on the one hand and representation on the other is not always easy; long story short you cannot organize a people's referendum every day on every sh**t.

But once the will of participation of big portions of the citizens is evident and/or an elected regional parliament decides to make all citizens part of the process i.e. calls for a referendum, the political elite cannot simply annihilate everything by claiming to rely on Democracy, as this would be a terrible lie.

This is not the first time that a central government annihilates a regional Parliament, neither in Spain itself.
However, doing this in the name of Democracy is a sacrilege (that is my point. I'm not in favor of an Independence either, but I like the people to be asked about this, without that completely anachronistic way of reaction of the central power).

On this point you can see very well that there is something missing in the actual Spanish democratical culture. I.e. 30 years missing, unlike other ex-fashist countries like Germany and Italy (which had more time on this and don't face Spain's problems of any nature, not even in the slightest).


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... which runs counter the king's interest (and also counter the government's [partially implicit] instructions). He won't cede those powers unless forced to, ...
...
But he needn't look back on some of his ancestors who died under the guillotine.

He simply might remember his grandfather's, his mother's and his uncle's fate (afaik the latter hasn't even the right to have a surname, can one imagine that? Surely not a nice thing ...).

And, last but not least, their constitution changed so many times in the last 100 years; I don't see why it shouldn't be discussed on some points, at least. And without using physical violence (is this so difficult to understand?).
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  #486  
Old 01.11.2017, 20:11
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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That probably depends on the type of monarchy.

In a parliamentary m., where the royals typically have merely ceremonial roles (the Dutch and Swedish come to mind) you can probably have something like a federation, reltively easily. But in a constitutional monarchy such as Spain, where the monarch still has legal powers which by definition is centered on her/him (no effective law without the monarch signing it into effectiveness, for example) and thereby centralised power structures, there has to be a certain amount of centralism.

So for Spain to move towards federation the whole thing may need to change, starting with the monarchy itself. Doing so will take more than a relatively few minority separatists, and way way longer.
I have already heard you several times that countries like Spain or UK are not democracies, and honestly, I do not understand what you mean. I also do not understand your differentiation between parliamentary and constitutional monarchies. Spain is, as defined in the constitution, a parliamentary monarchy; actually, according to wikipedia "Spain is a parliamentary democracy and constitutional monarchy".

The role of the King is just ceremonial:

"According to the Constitution of Spain, it is incumbent upon the King:[5][6] to sanction and promulgate laws; to summon and dissolve the Cortes Generales (the Parliament) and to call elections; to call a referendum under the circumstances provided in the constitution; to propose a candidate for prime minister, and to appoint or remove him from office, as well as other ministers; to issue the decrees agreed upon by the Council of Ministers; to confer civil and military positions, and to award honors and distinctions; to be informed of the affairs of the State, presiding over the meetings of the Council of Ministers whenever opportune; to exercise supreme command of the Spanish Armed Forces, to exercise the right to grant pardons, in accordance to the law; and to exercise the High Patronage of the Royal Academies. All ambassadors and other diplomatic representatives are accredited by him, and foreign representatives in Spain are accredited to him. He also expresses the State's assent to entering into international commitments through treaties; and he declares war or makes peace, following the authorization of the Cortes Generales.

In practical terms, his duties are mostly ceremonial, and constitutional provisions are worded in such a way as to make clear the strict neutral and apolitical nature of his role.[7][8] In fact, the Fathers of the Constitution made careful use of the expressions "it is incumbent upon of the King", deliberately omitting other expressions such as "powers", "faculties" or "competences", thus eliminating any notion of monarchical prerogatives within the parliamentary monarchy.[9] In the same way, the King does not have supreme liberty in the exercise of the aforementioned functions; all of these are framed, limited or exercised "according to the constitution and laws", or following requests of the executive or authorizations of the legislature".

By the way, "According to the Democracy Index of the EIU, Spain is one of the 19 full democracies in the world."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index

Not with a big margin but there we are, ahead of countries like France, Italy or the USA.

Finally, in the same way that in Switzerland you have federal laws and cantonal laws, in Spain you have nationwide laws made by the central government and regional laws made by the autonomies. Of course, they have to abide to the constitution, but they have their own legislative power. That's what the regional parliaments are expected to do.
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  #487  
Old 02.11.2017, 00:07
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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I have already heard you several times that countries like Spain or UK are not democracies, and honestly, I do not understand what you mean. I also do not understand your differentiation between parliamentary and constitutional monarchies. Spain is, as defined in the constitution, a parliamentary monarchy; actually, according to wikipedia "Spain is a parliamentary democracy and constitutional monarchy".

The role of the King is just ceremonial:

"According to the Constitution of Spain, it is incumbent upon the King:[5][6] to sanction and promulgate laws; to summon and dissolve the Cortes Generales (the Parliament) and to call elections; to call a referendum under the circumstances provided in the constitution; to propose a candidate for prime minister, and to appoint or remove him from office, as well as other ministers; to issue the decrees agreed upon by the Council of Ministers; to confer civil and military positions, and to award honors and distinctions; to be informed of the affairs of the State, presiding over the meetings of the Council of Ministers whenever opportune; to exercise supreme command of the Spanish Armed Forces, to exercise the right to grant pardons, in accordance to the law; and to exercise the High Patronage of the Royal Academies. All ambassadors and other diplomatic representatives are accredited by him, and foreign representatives in Spain are accredited to him. He also expresses the State's assent to entering into international commitments through treaties; and he declares war or makes peace, following the authorization of the Cortes Generales.

In practical terms, his duties are mostly ceremonial, and constitutional provisions are worded in such a way as to make clear the strict neutral and apolitical nature of his role.[7][8] In fact, the Fathers of the Constitution made careful use of the expressions "it is incumbent upon of the King", deliberately omitting other expressions such as "powers", "faculties" or "competences", thus eliminating any notion of monarchical prerogatives within the parliamentary monarchy.[9] In the same way, the King does not have supreme liberty in the exercise of the aforementioned functions; all of these are framed, limited or exercised "according to the constitution and laws", or following requests of the executive or authorizations of the legislature".

By the way, "According to the Democracy Index of the EIU, Spain is one of the 19 full democracies in the world."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index

Not with a big margin but there we are, ahead of countries like France, Italy or the USA.

Finally, in the same way that in Switzerland you have federal laws and cantonal laws, in Spain you have nationwide laws made by the central government and regional laws made by the autonomies. Of course, they have to abide to the constitution, but they have their own legislative power. That's what the regional parliaments are expected to do.
Very valuable information to those who attack the spanish democracy without any real argumentation.

I lived some years in Tarragona and Sevilla and I really loved it. Spanish people are very open minded and modern in their mentality, I would say there's no big different with Germany in general. We have to take into account how fast that country developed in the 80s and 90s during the first decades after Franco.

The only think that I hate from Spanish people is that they all have lunch and go to bed so late... and spend the whole day at work. They don't have much social life compared with Germany and Switzerland.
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  #488  
Old 02.11.2017, 00:42
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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Very valuable information to those who attack the spanish democracy without any real argumentation.
...
So you are denying Catalan voters got punched up by Guardia Civil?
That an elected regional Parliament is annhilated and members of its government prosecuted? That the central governments repeat elections if the actual binding ones are not approved by Madrid?

Why does Felipe not speak Catalan,
why is Valle de los Caídos still in place?
Why does Guardia Civil use the same hats as in their worst parts of history?
Why do so many Spanish flee the country if it's such a paradise?
Why do they get billions over billions from other countries up from its entry in the EU?
...

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I lived some years in Tarragona and Sevilla and I really loved it. Spanish people are very open minded and modern in their mentality ...
...
So is Iranian people, too. What's your point?


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I would say there's no big different with Germany in general.
...
Give them a break. They don't deserve being compared to those.
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  #489  
Old 02.11.2017, 02:58
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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So you are denying Catalan voters got punched up by Guardia Civil?
That an elected regional Parliament is annhilated and members of its government prosecuted? That the central governments repeat elections if the actual binding ones are not approved by Madrid?
I agree.

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Why does Felipe not speak Catalan,
Do we know that he does not? His father definitely did and I would assume that with the importance of regional minorities having increased so much since then, that it would be very unwise if the present king hadn't made an effort to learn it. What we saw is that he chose not to use it in his address. The more valid question here is, why not?

Personally I think he badly messed up in a situation where he could have provided a more conciliatory and unifying message.

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why is Valle de los Caídos still in place?
I think way too much fuss is made over the Valle de Los Caidos. It is a monumental mausoleum Franco built for himself using slave labour. It is on private property owned by a monastery and is miles away from anything so it's not really the government's problem at all. It would probably have been forgotten about long ago if people didn't bring it up all the time. Every time somebody tries to tear it down, it only opens old wounds. It has nothing to do with the problems of modern Spain and the debate over what to do with it needs to be a historical and curatorial one, not a political one. Otherwise you will get another Charlottesville.

In my view they should do with it what they did with many other Franco-era monuments and rededicate them to the dead on both sides in the Civil War.

Although Franco himself and all his statues and the roads and squares named after him have been purged from the cities, there are also still plenty of roads and squares and things named after people from his era. Is that a problem? That should be for the Spanish themselves to decide.

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Why does Guardia Civil use the same hats as in their worst parts of history?
I believe those hats pre-date Franco. Also they are just part of the ceremonial uniform. It's been years since I last saw a policemen actually wear one.

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Why do so many Spanish flee the country if it's such a paradise?
This is an expat forum. We all "fled" our countries in some way or other. Not necessarily because we didn't like it there. There are other reasons to move including better jobs, money etc etc.

A lot of expats from other countries actually "flee" to Spain. Ask the Costas. So it can't be as bad as all that.

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Why do they get billions over billions from other countries up from its entry in the EU?
Because the EU wanted to push the economic development of the country.

Whereas Germany was bombed to ruins and post war Germany was in many respects a blank sheet, the transition from dictatorship to democracy in Spain was a peaceful one and as such it was also gradual and some people stayed in the same jobs and many institutions were retained and only reformed gradually. But this does not make them fascist in their present form any more than say, Slovakia is still communist.

Mind you, I agree with you in principle but consider some of your arguments a bit extreme.

Last edited by amogles; 02.11.2017 at 03:23.
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  #490  
Old 02.11.2017, 11:37
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

Should we eliminate the Konzentrationslager (for Brocenture: campos de concentracion) and all the Holocaust-stuff in Germany too?

Why?

Perhaps it would be better just stop taking about a current authoritarian regime in Spain that is just a lie to justify the independence and create conflicts.

Again, take a look at the democratic index and look at the color of Spain, the same as Germany. Even better than most of the surrounding countries.



Spain: dark blue!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index
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  #491  
Old 02.11.2017, 12:24
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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Should we eliminate the Konzentrationslager (for Brocenture: campos de concentracion) and all the Holocaust-stuff in Germany too?
...
Did it ever occur to you to think about what you are implying? You honestly put concentration camps (i.e. which is one central part of the death machinery issued by one of Franco's sustainers) on a same level with gigantic monuments adulate themselves, abusing Christian faith with a 155 m cross raised on dead bodies and built by slavery work?


Besides that I didn't claim to blow the latter up (like the American did with Berghof, and there were reasons for doing so),
the problem is that afaik even commentaries on commemorative plaques have been missing, so far. A clear sign that the actual debate in Spain is not yet really able to face history and responsability.
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valle_de_los_Ca%C3%ADdos


Imagine Mussolini having one of the biggest Christian basilicas built onto his personal tomb or Hitler his holy shrine in Berghof or the Germania hall.
In this cultic fetish, Franco really outstands other dictators even like Lenin and Stalin.
And you say this is normal in Spain?
A person with a bit of historical interest (not to talk about heirs of Franco's victims) for sure is very sensitive to those signs. And if you ask me, yes it is odd that Guardia Civil keeps on using fasces in its coat of arms, till today (and don't tell me they took it from the French Republic; Guardia Civil's commander, loyal to the Republic, got killed by Franco's "justice" and 23-F was carried out by GC).
Imho Spain has a big problem, on this level.

And this is not the only one. Your Democracy index is of course better then nothing, but remember it's issued by a private company and data influx is a few years old (i.e. the october abuses of power haven't entered yet). And - sorry - putting India on the same level as e.g. France is simply ridiculous.


If Spain were such a great success (of course it is, by comparison with the situation prior to 1975, and of course it is if you compare it to Turkey, Russia or even Hungary and Bulgaria), how come the country still needs help after so many decades of transfer? Hundreds of thousands Spaniards forced to seek a better life elsewhere? Something is not working also on that layer.
Obvious that something could be done better. So why don't ask the people? Why keeping them out of a democratic process? Other countries (e.g. Canada) managed, too.
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  #492  
Old 02.11.2017, 12:42
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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If the alternative (in the long run) is that people get so fed up with the monarchy that they want to depose him entirely, it would be in the king's interests to modernize his role, even if that means reducing it.
Perhaps. But for now it's about dealing with the illegalities.
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And without using physical violence (is this so difficult to understand?).
If you block the police from doing its job they will use force, the more forceful your resistance the more force will be applied. That's the same all around the world, and that's exactly what happened a month ago.
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  #493  
Old 02.11.2017, 13:07
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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Perhaps. But for now it's about dealing with the illegalities.
If you block the police from doing its job they will use force, the more forceful your resistance the more force will be applied. That's the same all around the world, and that's exactly what happened a month ago.
Exactly. We saw the same in Hamburg (G20) and it was much harder than that.
Has it something to do with how democratic is a country? Not at all... but if you are a populist, you will mix things that don't have anything to do.

You just have to read independent newspapers like spiegel to see the real picture. Puigdemont and his people are shown as populisten.

Carles, go home!
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/auslan...a-1175772.html

Puigdemont droht europaweite Fahndung
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/auslan...a-1176126.html

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  #494  
Old 02.11.2017, 13:18
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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Did it ever occur to you to think about what you are implying? You honestly put concentration camps (i.e. which is one central part of the death machinery issued by one of Franco's sustainers) on a same level with gigantic monuments adulate themselves, abusing Christian faith with a 155 m cross raised on dead bodies and built by slavery work?


Besides that I didn't claim to blow the latter up (like the American did with Berghof, and there were reasons for doing so),
the problem is that afaik even commentaries on commemorative plaques have been missing, so far. A clear sign that the actual debate in Spain is not yet really able to face history and responsability.
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valle_de_los_Ca%C3%ADdos


Imagine Mussolini having one of the biggest Christian basilicas built onto his personal tomb or Hitler his holy shrine in Berghof or the Germania hall.
In this cultic fetish, Franco really outstands other dictators even like Lenin and Stalin.
And you say this is normal in Spain?
A person with a bit of historical interest (not to talk about heirs of Franco's victims) for sure is very sensitive to those signs. And if you ask me, yes it is odd that Guardia Civil keeps on using fasces in its coat of arms, till today (and don't tell me they took it from the French Republic; Guardia Civil's commander, loyal to the Republic, got killed by Franco's "justice" and 23-F was carried out by GC).
Imho Spain has a big problem, on this level.

And this is not the only one. Your Democracy index is of course better then nothing, but remember it's issued by a private company and data influx is a few years old (i.e. the october abuses of power haven't entered yet). And - sorry - putting India on the same level as e.g. France is simply ridiculous.


If Spain were such a great success (of course it is, by comparison with the situation prior to 1975, and of course it is if you compare it to Turkey, Russia or even Hungary and Bulgaria), how come the country still needs help after so many decades of transfer? Hundreds of thousands Spaniards forced to seek a better life elsewhere? Something is not working also on that layer.
Obvious that something could be done better. So why don't ask the people? Why keeping them out of a democratic process? Other countries (e.g. Canada) managed, too.
Sorry but I don't have the time to answer point by point your elaborated thoughts.

But only one thing more, don't mix. Democracy and wealth haven't anything to do. (India, Abu Dhabi, Venezuela, Russia).
Germans emigrate all over the world and we have a healthy democracy and a strong economy. It has nothing to do.

You can always look for your own explanations due to your indoktrinated education, but I would recommend you to visit the Holocaust museum in Nurnberg. Perhaps you start asking yourself why you always try to justify yourself.

Have a nice day
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  #495  
Old 02.11.2017, 14:04
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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But only one thing more, don't mix. Democracy and wealth haven't anything to do. (India, Abu Dhabi, Venezuela, Russia).
...
There is a link between the two, even a strong one, also if it's not bijective.

Ever heard of pursuit of happiness in the US? This is not just a word.

And a community is always better in taking its destiny in his hands than just a single person. That's why in the long-run a democracy is better than other governmental forms also on the wealthy level.


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Germans emigrate all over the world ...
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They did from 1850-1900, maybe. Now it's a slight minority. Germany is an immigration country, alongside Switzerland.


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Perhaps you start asking yourself why you always try to justify yourself.
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The government, the ruler has to justify its power. They are in the service of the people, not the contrary. I'm just a person, a citizen of CH and I don't have to justify myself; I have only my point of view.
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  #496  
Old 02.11.2017, 16:40
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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There is a link between the two, even a strong one, also if it's not bijective.

Ever heard of pursuit of happiness in the US? This is not just a word.

And a community is always better in taking its destiny in his hands than just a single person. That's why in the long-run a democracy is better than other governmental forms also on the wealthy level.



They did from 1850-1900, maybe. Now it's a slight minority. Germany is an immigration country, alongside Switzerland.



The government, the ruler has to justify its power. They are in the service of the people, not the contrary. I'm just a person, a citizen of CH and I don't have to justify myself; I have only my point of view.

The first country that is providing immigrants to Switzerland is GERMANY!
Could it be that there're other variables to take into account and it's not that easy?

In Spain are ECUADOR and UK. I thought the UK are a wealthy country...

-----

And you should apply that bulls*** called "the right to decide by yourself" to your own territories that want really decide by theirselves. I don't remember the name now, but there's a catalan region that wants strongly stay in Spain, and then Barcelona and Tarragona that have a much higher % of people against the independence, because of the strong "immigration from Spain" during decades (the charnegos, you have a despective word for them)...... Can you see what you separatist try to do? Trying to keep the catalan regions together, against what every region wants, LIKE SPAIN DOES.


You make the world so simple...... the bad ones are so ing bad, and the good ones are like heroes. Think twice. Reality is not so extreme
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  #497  
Old 02.11.2017, 16:47
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Val_d%27Aran

This catalan region wants to stay in Spain but they must accept what Puigdemont says. What a contradiction you guys.
How can you justify this? I am anxious.
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  #498  
Old 02.11.2017, 19:30
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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He simply might remember his grandfather's, his mother's and his uncle's fate (afaik the latter hasn't even the right to have a surname, can one imagine that? Surely not a nice thing ...).
So you're implying a threat to his safety, maybe his life.

So much for nonviolent change. You demonstrate your double standards yet again.
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Old 02.11.2017, 20:44
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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So you're implying a threat to his safety, maybe his life.
...
Wrong again.

His uncle lost the throne (Greece is a Republic now), his father initially didn't have it.
But nobody lost his life (there was the case with his father's brother killed accidently, but the story is very obscure. Anyway I was referring to King Constantin de Grecia, not to Alfonso de Borbon). These things belong to the past.


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This.
Anyway, it doesn't matter what other people think, I guess it's pretty clear that EU won't back up anything coming from the Catalan side. It's enough to read the international press to know that the game is over.
Wouldn't be so sure.

The Spanish case will be keeping on being a problem, not only for Spain, but for the EU (it's a signal to the small, it's a strong signal to Switzerland and everybody to keep away from that mess and to pay attention that they don't cheat you, as they have no principles), which is maybe not really in the best shape, as somebody might have heard.
Juncker will be retired soon, and a new generation sick of countries that behave as if Metternich were still alive (plus ask for everybody's money for decades, as if this were the most normal thing to do) has to face reality. This generation is already there, waiting to give the final coup de grace to the old national class elite but in the first place to the EU guard. Driven and pushed by the far-right competitors on quite every front. Might be a chance, might be a threat. Maybe both.

That case has been a chance to test the EU, the national states, diplomacy and in the first place democracy within the EU.
But they have failed miserably. A complete failure.


And - sure - Spain is not the only responsible.
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  #500  
Old 02.11.2017, 23:10
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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I have already heard you several times that countries like Spain or UK are not democracies, and honestly, I do not understand what you mean. I also do not understand your differentiation between parliamentary and constitutional monarchies. Spain is, as defined in the constitution, a parliamentary monarchy; actually, according to wikipedia "Spain is a parliamentary democracy and constitutional monarchy".
Constitutional simply means that a constitution is in place, effective, and limits the monarch's powers, it says nowthing per se about their extent.

A democracy requires "one citizen one vote" with each vote being of (at least roughly) equal weight, and no political rights granted to any group or person by birth or standing.

In a monarchy at least one person has (usually vastly) increased rights. The Spanish king has the power to nominate the president (i.e. nobody becomes president against his will), to dissolve the parliament, laws require his consent, and he is supreme leader of the military. He alone declares war and can make peace.

A parliamentary democracy means that the parliament is elected by the people, directly or indirectly. Yet the constitution's claim that all powers reside with the people is moot as the king has the power to block the parliament at will. Whether he executes that power is of no importance.
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