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Old 03.11.2017, 10:39
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/auslan...a-1176286.html

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"Die Politik der Unabhängigkeitsbefürworter, dies infrage zu stellen, oder gar das heutige Spanien mit der Franco-Diktatur gleichzusetzen, ist infam", sagte Annen. Immer mehr Katalanen fragten sich zudem, "warum ihr Präsident erst die Unabhängigkeit ausruft und dann verschwindet".
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  #502  
Old 03.11.2017, 13:50
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

Apart that nobody heard of that SPD-Annen ever before,


of course the actual Spanish Monarchy has little to do with Franco's Spanish State.


However - and this is the estonishing - the actual Spanish Administration does even less to keep the distance from the latter.


Btw. the actual debate is not over, also if this is the hope of those centralist German politicians (which have a strong interest in dominating the EU by its leading nation i.e. themselves, by not letting anybody cut their power, of course),


quite well illustrated, for whom knows German, by the dispute e.g. between Heinrich August Winkler and Robert Menasse, one of the themes in Maybrit Illner's yesterday discussion.
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  #503  
Old 03.11.2017, 14:42
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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Do you really believe it's going to be a fair trial for the separatists? I doubt that the Spanish government will lose the opportunity to make it so bad that other people won't try it again..
So you see what I meant.


Even the US after the end of the Civil War was more leniant with the former CSA leaders, and that was more than 150 years ago.
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  #504  
Old 03.11.2017, 14:45
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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I guess the answer is pretty obvious - the perspective of spending 30 years in jail was not good at all. Do you really believe it's going to be a fair trial for the separatists? I doubt that the Spanish government will lose the opportunity to make it so bad that other people won't try it again..
I don't think they want marthyrs... I don't expect such a long time in prison.

I like these demagogic videos of the separatist guys, they try making feel sorry... and what's funny is that nobody believes them. Look at the comments.

Catalonia: "Dad! I want to play Battlefield!"
Spain: "No son, you've to clean your room first"
Catalonia: "You can't tell me what to do"
Spain: "WTF? No more saturday parties for a month!"
Catalonia: "YOU'RE NOT MY DAD! MOM! MOM!"
European Union: "Oh sweetie, what's happening?"
Catalonia: "Dad doesn't allow me to play Battlefield..."
European Union: "Did you clean your room?"
Catalonia: "N-no... but... but... you can't tell me what to do either"


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  #505  
Old 03.11.2017, 19:37
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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The Spanish king has the power to nominate the president (i.e. nobody becomes president against his will), to dissolve the parliament, laws require his consent, and he is supreme leader of the military. He alone declares war and can make peace.
I disagree. This is just an academic discussion, but strictly speaking most of these are not powers, but functions. For example

"It is incumbent on the King, to propose a candidate for President of the Government and, as the case may be, appoint him or remove him from office, as provided in the Constitution". It is true that he nominates a candidate for President of the Government, but the candidate must obtain the confidence of the Parliament; the king cannot appoint the President without the approval of the Parliament. I cannot immagine a scenario where the king would not nominate the leader of a party that has obtained an absolute majority of seats in the parliament.

"It is incumbent upon the king to summon and dissolve the Cortes Generales and to call elections under the terms provided in the Constitution". Which means that he cannot dissolve the Cortes just because he feels like it, but when the provisions in the Constitution state that they shall be dissolved.

"It is incumbent upon the king to sanction and promulgate the laws". But later you have "The King shall, within a period of fifteen days, give his assent to the laws passed by the Cortes Generales, and shall promulgate them and
order their immediate publication." Spanish constitutional experts agree that he cannot refuse to give his assent, see for instance the third paragraph of this article (in Spanish)

"It is incumbent on the King, following authorisation by the Cortes
Generales, to declare war and to make peace." Again, by no means his decission.

Last but not least:
Article 64
1. The acts of the King shall be countersigned by the President of
the Government and, where appropriate, by the competent ministers.
The nomination and appointment of the President of the Government
and the dissolution provided under Article 99, shall be countersigned
by the Speaker of Congress.
2. Those countersigning the acts of the King shall be liable for
them.
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  #506  
Old 05.11.2017, 12:33
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

Catalonian government in prison, Spanish democracy in action. Looking forward to the trial, the Spanish Inquisition will be alive and well.

Still, it doesn't look like this is going away. I guess the outcome of these elections will depend very much on the actions of the Spanish government between now and December.

Pro-Catalonia independence parties seen winning most votes in election: poll
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  #507  
Old 05.11.2017, 12:46
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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Even the US after the end of the Civil War was more leniant with the former CSA leaders, and that was more than 150 years ago.
The important difference is that that was at the end of the war, where as this is still on going.
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Old 05.11.2017, 14:07
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

Carles Puigdemont and his advisers have handed themselves into Belgian authorities.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41877858
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Old 05.11.2017, 23:08
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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I think Rajoy has created more Catalan nationalists than any Catalan school curriculum...
Yes, of course, Rajoy in a couple of years has created the problem.
And what do you think of the indoktrination in the schools over decades
and the victimism/inteligence of your politicians blaming on your problems the rest of the country and Europe? Does it create nationalism or not?




Saying that is like saying that the holocaust was created by the jews. Do you think that people are stupid?

Nationalism is created by the nationalist politicians using their typical propaganda.
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Old 06.11.2017, 01:19
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

Apart that I don't see any link between the shoa and victimism (are you serious?),


this thing is not between nationalism and communism or communitarism,


but between a modern concept of democracy and people's participation on the one side and top-down ruling authoritarism on the other.
Actually I don't understand why it is so pityful for a King to speak one of its peoples language (i.e. Catalan) when he addresses especially to that portion of his country,
neither why one can't be a part of a Catalan nation and a Spanish nation at the same time, please? Why shall a Catalan be a good subject to the King, denying one of his identies, maybe for him the more important (but that may differ from person to person)? How dares the central "authority" (which has to serve the people, not to rule it) to deny a community the status of a nation if a portion of the people asks for it? What's the problem? Why would it be a shame to show the Catalan flag (have you ever been to Switzerland, where you can see Cantonal flags in every corner?)?
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  #511  
Old 06.11.2017, 15:29
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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Apart that I don't see any link between the shoa and victimism (are you serious?),


this thing is not between nationalism and communism or communitarism,


but between a modern concept of democracy and people's participation on the one side and top-down ruling authoritarism on the other.
Actually I don't understand why it is so pityful for a King to speak one of its peoples language (i.e. Catalan) when he addresses especially to that portion of his country,
neither why one can't be a part of a Catalan nation and a Spanish nation at the same time, please? Why shall a Catalan be a good subject to the King, denying one of his identies, maybe for him the more important (but that may differ from person to person)? How dares the central "authority" (which has to serve the people, not to rule it) to deny a community the status of a nation if a portion of the people asks for it? What's the problem? Why would it be a shame to show the Catalan flag (have you ever been to Switzerland, where you can see Cantonal flags in every corner?)?

That just shows (and I am saying this with all due respect) your lack of knowledge of the issue you intend to talk about. First, nobody denies identity to the catalans. On the contrary, Catalans have enjoyed more autonomy since the 80's than ever before in their history. Second, the current constitution of Spain was approved by 90%+ of the people of Cataluna, so need a bit of help understanding where democracy is failing here; you can amend the constitution and there are democratic paths for that in Spain, but what is is discussion right now is the illegal actions. Not obeying the current laws of the country is plain illegal, like it is in many other countries. Third, and I will stop here, the King addresses his speeches in the national language, understood by 100% of the people in the territory. In fact, and you probably don't know that either, there is a quite large proportion of the population in Cataluna that do not speak catalan. Also, if you still don't believe Spain is a modern democracy, I encourage you to look at the Economist democracy index, where Spain appears just beside the UK and above countries like Japan, the US and Italy. Here is the link, hope it helps putting things in perspective for you: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index
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Old 06.11.2017, 15:45
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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I guess the answer is pretty obvious - the perspective of spending 30 years in jail was not good at all. Do you really believe it's going to be a fair trial for the separatists? I doubt that the Spanish government will lose the opportunity to make it so bad that other people won't try it again..
Why not? Could you please share any relevant, recent past indication in the Spanish law system that shows that they will not have a fair trial? Another thing is your own expected outcome: looks like you rally for someone(s) who disobey the law of a country and gets away with it; and any other result will not be democratic, right?
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Old 06.11.2017, 18:39
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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Why not? Could you please share any relevant, recent past indication in the Spanish law system that shows that they will not have a fair trial? Another thing is your own expected outcome: looks like you rally for someone(s) who disobey the law of a country and gets away with it; and any other result will not be democratic, right?
Let aside that they will be judged by a tribunal, not by the government. This is something that many people in Catalonia apparently fail to understand. And it does not speak very well of the kind of nation they want.
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  #514  
Old 06.11.2017, 20:46
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

[QUOTE=Yopo;2870353]

Also, if you still don't believe Spain is a modern democracy, I encourage you to look at the Economist democracy index, where Spain appears just beside the UK and above countries like Japan, the US and Italy. Here is the link, hope it helps putting things in perspective for you: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index[/QUOTE]
Somebody already posted that; the problem is that it’s issued by a private company, and that it reflects the situation prior to 2017. And also if it were true that Spain would be one of the best democracies, the point of reference is the situation of others who are not really so much better par force. In my eyes it’s total hybris to claim that a democracy, i.e. letting the voters participate in political decision making, cannot be improved.


And then, on the other hand, there’s the evidence.


Large portions of the people in a country or a region ask for a referendum and/or even independence (we don’t know if it’s the minority or majority to ask for a referendum or claim independence; however what we know is that many – too many for an efficient modern democracy which in your eyes Spain is),


and all what comes to those Madrileño fools’ mind is to insist on their legal position (I’m not expert enough to judge if whatever legislation would or would not condemn a proclamation of independence and, honestly, I don’t care; Spanish legislation is not binding for me, nor would EU. I’m glad and happy that I have other citizenships and hope that Switzerland will stay forever outside that club of cheaters and Sesselfurzern and I'm happy that our fathers didn't ask for Austrian or imperial legislation when they fought their wars with the oppressor; which does not mean that I’m pro independence a priori; all I mean is that I do empathise with the Catalans, now that Spain made the world open its eyes about what Spain really is, and that we have to manoeuvre carefully in this ocean of Metternich sharks all around the Federation. While we are lucky enough to live in a democracy; theirs is oppressed i.e. arrested, difficult to deny that)


And to send home (if not arrest) a legally elected Parliament.


You have to make a choice: You wanna safe your legal codex nobody in the world cares or even knows about, or you wanna safe the country (and you still could get another legal codex, maybe also a better one, if you insist). I fear that you cannot have the cake and eat it.


Btw. consider the huge amount of pro-Catalan voices even in the German (i.e. the country that has the biggest interest in not allowing Catalan independence) Spiegel (it’s in the readers’ comments, of course not in the journalist’s. The only “rebel” is Jakob Augstein):


http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/katalonien-krise-wie-carles-puigdemont-einer-auslieferung-entgehen-koennte-a-1176580.html


And I like this one:


http://iniciativadebate.net/2017/11/...-a-franquismo/





N.B. Of course Spain is not Franco, and Spain today is not the same it was under Franco.
However: What I don't understand is why certain people fail to understand that for some, and probably not those who are the enemy of Democracy, complain a lacking fulfillment in some democratical achievements, which btw. might not be only a Spanish problem (only that in Spain probably it's still hurting more as the Civil War has never really got overcom). Why shouldn't things go for the better?
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  #515  
Old 06.11.2017, 22:20
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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Second, the current constitution of Spain was approved by 90%+ of the people of Cataluna, so need a bit of help understanding where democracy is failing here
A generation ago. How many of those alive today approved the constitution?
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Old 07.11.2017, 08:55
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...spain-catalans

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/auslan...a-1176698.html
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  #517  
Old 07.11.2017, 08:58
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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A generation ago. How many of those alive today approved the constitution?
Many. Far too many. At least 54% of the people living in that Spanish region, in fact.
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Old 07.11.2017, 09:07
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

Brucentaure and the Franco Chronicles of 1970...

You stubborn independentist aren´t going to change what´s reality.
Spain is a modern democracy because the Democracy Index is an international objective indicator, and not a propagantistic tool to lie to the people. But I understand your need to justify yourself to feel better. It must have been hard being hard indoctrinated with somehting that´s not real.
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Old 07.11.2017, 09:53
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

Did you understand what I said?


My point is: If Madrid keeps on insisting on silly statistic data and abstract laws, being in the right or wrong,


they won't only lose Catalonia, but the whole country;
and EU will lose the people, which is going to make EU obsolete.


If an admin or a political system loses the voter, it cannot be a servant of the voter any more, and if he's not then this is the end.
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Old 07.11.2017, 15:29
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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Did you understand what I said?

My point is: If Madrid keeps on insisting on silly statistic data and abstract laws, being in the right or wrong,

they won't only lose Catalonia, but the whole country;
and EU will lose the people, which is going to make EU obsolete.

If an admin or a political system loses the voter, it cannot be a servant of the voter any more, and if he's not then this is the end.
The question is not directed to me, but I am sure you will enjoy having just a few examples of abstract laws in other countries:
-Norwegian constitution, Article 1: The kingdom of Norway is a free, independent and indivisible state
-Finnish constitution, section 4: The territory of Finland is indivisible. The national borders cannot be altered without the consent of the Parliament.
-Basic Law for the Federal Republic of Germany, Art 21: Associations whose aims or activities contravene the criminal laws, or that are directed against the constitutional order or the concept of international understanding, shall be prohibited – Spain should have considered this one :-)
-French constitution, Article 1: France shall be an indivisible, secular, democratic and social Republic.
-Cambodia constitution (this one just to prove the point, not only in Europe so everybody will be losing people), Chapter 1, Art 3: The Kingdom of Cambodia is an indivisible state.


And we can go on and on. I counted 70 countries with the “indivisible” statement in their constitutional laws. Or abstract laws, as you called them :-).



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