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  #521  
Old 07.11.2017, 16:53
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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The question is not directed to me, but I am sure you will enjoy having just a few examples of abstract laws in other countries:
-Norwegian constitution, Article 1: The kingdom of Norway is a free, independent and indivisible state
-Finnish constitution, section 4: The territory of Finland is indivisible. The national borders cannot be altered without the consent of the Parliament.
-Basic Law for the Federal Republic of Germany, Art 21: Associations whose aims or activities contravene the criminal laws, or that are directed against the constitutional order or the concept of international understanding, shall be prohibited – Spain should have considered this one :-)
-French constitution, Article 1: France shall be an indivisible, secular, democratic and social Republic.
-Cambodia constitution (this one just to prove the point, not only in Europe so everybody will be losing people), Chapter 1, Art 3: The Kingdom of Cambodia is an indivisible state.


And we can go on and on. I counted 70 countries with the “indivisible” statement in their constitutional laws. Or abstract laws, as you called them :-).


Most countries, including Spain, also have a path for modifying the constitution.

That may not be easy, but it could at least be considered.

The constitution is thus an obstacle to independence, but not a reason against it.

The debate should thus be about whether Catalonia should be an independent state, with argummnets for and against being weighed against one another.

If Rajoy's very first argument against indpenendence is "constiutions says no", it leaves a bitter feeling that he can't come up with better than that.

Just imagine if after Franco's death they had said, sorry, we cannot stop being a dictatorship because the constitution doesn't allow for it.
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Old 07.11.2017, 22:45
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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Most countries, including Spain, also have a path for modifying the constitution.

That may not be easy, but it could at least be considered.

The constitution is thus an obstacle to independence, but not a reason against it.

The debate should thus be about whether Catalonia should be an independent state, with argummnets for and against being weighed against one another.

If Rajoy's very first argument against indpenendence is "constiutions says no", it leaves a bitter feeling that he can't come up with better than that.

Just imagine if after Franco's death they had said, sorry, we cannot stop being a dictatorship because the constitution doesn't allow for it.

Yes, sure.

Rajoy is such a bad bad president and Spain such a hidden dictatorship, OMG... the Democracy Index is just bullshit of oppressors. Catalans know how hard is to live suffering without human rights, poor them. I am gonna cry for them.

Merkel and Macron instead would allow every change in the Verfassung at the moment. Why not? Everybody should have the chance to decide when to break up with the mother country, specially when some taxes have to be paid... But I am really sure that Merkel and Macron would accept it at the moment, because Germany and France have real democracies and to keep the country united is a matter of dictatorships like Spain.


The only way to talk with you guys is with a teasing tone, sorry.
I have lived some years in Catalonia and I understand this theater. So don't try to cheat the people with such a propaganda.


No way to comment of see the dislikes in the video. Why not?

Last edited by Jonesy; 07.11.2017 at 23:20.
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  #523  
Old 08.11.2017, 22:16
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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The debate should thus be about whether Catalonia should be an independent state, with argummnets for and against being weighed against one another.
Well, this may just be my opinion, but I think quite a lot people from Spain who are against the independence of Catalonia are likely to share some of these thoughts.

The history we learnt at school is that Spain as we know it today starts with the Catholic Monarchs and the end of the Reconquista at the end of the XV century, and Catalonia has been part of it since the very beginning. Catalans have their culture and peculiarities that nobody denies, just like the basques, galicians, andalusians, valencians, canarians or any others. Everyone in Spain laughs at the claims of oppression or discrimination with respect to other regions, because this is simply not true. If anything, quite a lot of people are likely to think that the catalans enjoy some advantages with respect to people from other regions of Spain due to the fact that catalan parties like CiU were often the key to secure a majority in the parliament.

It is often said that "the PP government cancelled the Statute of 2006" or similar things and the boosted the pro-independence feeling but, although partly true, that (I mean, the true story not that interested view) was mid-2010 whilst the biggest turning point is September 2012. What happened then, or in the previous months? The PP won the general elections in November 2011, the deficit was totally out of control, and they approved a series of severe budgetary cuts and tax increases. These measures were very unpopular, not just in Catalonia but in all of Spain. Shortly after Mas had to introduce their own social cuts in Catalonia too (which in 2015 cost him not getting the support from the CUP), but they managed to make Madrid responsible for it with the infamous "Espanya ens roba" (Spain is robbing us).

Spain is not wonderland, but it is a democratic country and Catalonia enjoys a high level of autonomy for the last 40 years. Believing that catalans have been fighting oppression for 300 years as some of them claim is ridiculous. If this is not the case, then why has this become such a priority in the last five years? Sure, Rajoy could have managed the demands from Catalonia better, but the feeling shared by most people in Spain is simply that this pro-independence thing is not a genuine, centuries long feeling as they try to sell it, but just the result of the manipulation by politicians with vested interests (getting more power).
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  #524  
Old 09.11.2017, 19:23
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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Most countries, including Spain, also have a path for modifying the constitution.

That may not be easy, but it could at least be considered.

The constitution is thus an obstacle to independence, but not a reason against it.

The debate should thus be about whether Catalonia should be an independent state, with argummnets for and against being weighed against one another.

If Rajoy's very first argument against indpenendence is "constiutions says no", it leaves a bitter feeling that he can't come up with better than that.

Just imagine if after Franco's death they had said, sorry, we cannot stop being a dictatorship because the constitution doesn't allow for it.
I agree with most of your points. The only one I don't is about Rajoy's argument. Even if he wanted, he is not authorized to allow an independence referendum. As the president of the country, he has a first and up most obligation to ensure the rules are respected. If independentists really want a legal referendum, they should call for an amendment of the constitution through alliances with parties willing to do so, such as the PSOE's socialists and the populist party Podemos. Among them, they are probably close to a 40% of votes in the parliament, enough to at least trigger a very serious discussion in the country. But independentists decided to go their way, a call for an illegal referendum and furthermore, declaring an independence that they are now calling today symbolic. Did they break the law? yes. Do they deserve my respect for following that path? not at all, specially having other meanings. lastly, are catalans an oppressed society? uff, I guess more than 70% of the world's population would like to have half of the freedom that catalans (and the rest of the spanish citizens) have.
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  #525  
Old 20.11.2017, 09:33
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

December could prove awkward for Mr. Rajoy:

Spain (Catalonia), GESOP poll: Majority for pro-independence coalition.

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  #526  
Old 20.11.2017, 17:12
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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I guess the answer is pretty obvious - the perspective of spending 30 years in jail was not good at all. Do you really believe it's going to be a fair trial for the separatists? I doubt that the Spanish government will lose the opportunity to make it so bad that other people won't try it again..
A bit like Nelson Mandela you mean?

Surely prison time, especially if innocent, only ups the cred of a politician.

(and I think a modern Spanish prison is about 100 times more comfortable than an Apartheid-era South African one)
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  #527  
Old 20.11.2017, 17:20
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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Saying that is like saying that the holocaust was created by the jews. Do you think that people are stupid?
How do you say Godwin in Catalan?

Déuguanya
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  #528  
Old 20.11.2017, 17:34
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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I agree with most of your points. The only one I don't is about Rajoy's argument. Even if he wanted, he is not authorized to allow an independence referendum. As the president of the country, he has a first and up most obligation to ensure the rules are respected. If independentists really want a legal referendum, they should call for an amendment of the constitution through alliances with parties willing to do so, such as the PSOE's socialists and the populist party Podemos. Among them, they are probably close to a 40% of votes in the parliament, enough to at least trigger a very serious discussion in the country. But independentists decided to go their way, a call for an illegal referendum and furthermore, declaring an independence that they are now calling today symbolic. Did they break the law? yes. Do they deserve my respect for following that path? not at all, specially having other meanings. lastly, are catalans an oppressed society? uff, I guess more than 70% of the world's population would like to have half of the freedom that catalans (and the rest of the spanish citizens) have.
Maybe, but still it is putting the process before the objective.

If your wife says to you, shall we buy a new sofa, and you say, no, because we would have to drive to the furniture shop and there isn' enough petrol in the car and I can't fill it because my credit car is in my other wallet.

Is that a good reason not to get a sofa?

Do you think your wife would be happy with that explanation, and not ask again?

Or should you first talk about, do we actually want a new sofa, can we afford one, etc? And then once we agree on that we work around the obstacles one by one until we can actually go and get the sofa.

So in the Catalan example, the right thing would be to have an open debate. What arguments are there for independence, what arguments are there against, lets look at the facts. Lets look at the consequences. And if we see, all arguments considered, it's not really a good idea, then we drop the debate there. But if we see that all arguments considered, it's an excellent idea, then we start drumming up support and talking to other parties to build up the majority required to change the consititution.

The function needs to bow to the purpose rather than being used as an excuse to prevent it.
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  #529  
Old 20.11.2017, 19:35
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

Separatists are doing great the job of breaking the image of Spain.
From favorite to the EMA to being out in the first round:

https://politica.elpais.com/politica...80_269295.html
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Old 21.11.2017, 11:35
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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So in the Catalan example, the right thing would be to have an open debate. What arguments are there for independence, what arguments are there against, lets look at the facts. Lets look at the consequences. And if we see, all arguments considered, it's not really a good idea, then we drop the debate there. But if we see that all arguments considered, it's an excellent idea, then we start drumming up support and talking to other parties to build up the majority required to change the consititution.
Puidgemont didn't discuss, debate or campaign for his aims, he tried to force the central government to act in a certain way. That won't end well wherever this is tried.

Holding the vote actually forced the reaction. Given the panels decision/ruling it was clear what would happen.
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Old 22.11.2017, 10:51
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/auslan...a-1179485.html

Separatists are like kids destroying their toys, but then they cry.

- Less tourism (20-30% cancellations), EMA flies away to Amsterdam (Barcelona went from favorite to the 5th position), thousands of companies and banks leaving... there you go! I am sure that separatist-Media blames Rajoy and the rest of Spain and the EU for this...
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Old 22.11.2017, 11:52
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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EMA's new destination was a political vote, it had to be Amsterdam. Holland is a very "oiled" player in the EU, they have a say in lots of things and not always only as an echo chamber of Germany...

As for tourism, if I recall correctly not long ago they were protesting against mass tourism so they should be happy, no?
I wonder what the real local value is of big institutions like the EMA really is. They bring in heaps of expats on fat salaries who price the locals out of the real estate market. Send their kids to international schools and then gang up together on www.expatforum.cat to complain that tapas aren't as good as back home in Tesco. Maybe the low end secretarial and janitorial type jobs are open to locals, but how big is the net benefit really? Landing this type of institution in your city is often more about willy waving that actual benefit.
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  #533  
Old 22.11.2017, 11:54
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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EMA's new destination was a political vote, it had to be Amsterdam. Holland is a very "oiled" player in the EU, they have a say in lots of things and not always only as an echo chamber of Germany...
They are also a country who were threatening with a nexit not too long ago.

So sometimes threats do have an effect?
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  #534  
Old 22.11.2017, 13:18
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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EMA's new destination was a political vote, it had to be Amsterdam. Holland is a very "oiled" player in the EU, they have a say in lots of things and not always only as an echo chamber of Germany...

As for tourism, if I recall correctly not long ago they were protesting against mass tourism so they should be happy, no?
yes, they can be very happy and Holland can be very oiled, but this is not what I was talking about.
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Old 22.11.2017, 15:41
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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I wonder what the real local value is of big institutions like the EMA really is. They bring in heaps of expats on fat salaries who price the locals out of the real estate market. Send their kids to international schools and then gang up together on www.expatforum.cat to complain that tapas aren't as good as back home in Tesco. Maybe the low end secretarial and janitorial type jobs are open to locals, but how big is the net benefit really? Landing this type of institution in your city is often more about willy waving that actual benefit.
Improved access to the decisiontakers and influence by the local/regional government. Experts and consultations will be necessary, congresses organised and held. Drug market supervision will bring outsorced contracts, interest groups will try to influence decisiontakers. Pharma knowledge influx makes it more attractive for businesses to settle in the vicinity.

Lots of Business for the local economy.

Oh and, ahm, rent. The current offces in London alone cost around €20mln annually, including charges.
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  #536  
Old 21.12.2017, 23:45
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

The separatists look like they're on track to win an overall majority in today's election. If they do, how long before we see heads getting bashed again?
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Old 22.12.2017, 00:32
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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The separatists look like they're on track to win an overall majority in today's election. If they do, how long before we see heads getting bashed again?
It is important to remember that:
- independestists are getting around 47.5% of the votes, and lose 2 seats wrt 2015
- C's has been the most voted party
- Puigdemont has surprisingly stayed ahead of ERC

Overall, there has been some movement within the blocks, but little change globally. Now the question is if Puigdemont will return to Spain, as he promised he would do, knowing that he will go direct to jail without a stop at the parliament.
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Old 22.12.2017, 11:28
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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It is important to remember that:
- independestists are getting around 47.5% of the votes, and lose 2 seats wrt 2015
- C's has been the most voted party
- Puigdemont has surprisingly stayed ahead of ERC

Overall, there has been some movement within the blocks, but little change globally. Now the question is if Puigdemont will return to Spain, as he promised he would do, knowing that he will go direct to jail without a stop at the parliament.
The result is that not much has changed -- which in itself is a moral victory for the secessionists. This all started because they got a majority of seats in the last election. After the full-on battering they received from the national government -- literally, in the case of October 1, as well as the anti-independence propaganda and the legal challenges that put some of their MPs in jail and exiled their leader, yesterday's election was to be the opportunity for the Catalonians to rethink and banish all thoughts of secession.

They didn't do it.

If Puigdemont, the leader of the parliamentary majority, is sent to jail when he returns to Spain, there will be uproar.

Like Theresa May in June, Rajoy and Madrid took a gamble on being proved right at the polls, but lost it. Best hope for national unity would be for Rajoy to step down, and make way for a more conciliatory government that would look for creative ways to increase Catalonian autonomy without letting them secede.
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Old 22.12.2017, 15:07
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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Like Theresa May in June, Rajoy and Madrid took a gamble on being proved right at the polls, but lost it. Best hope for national unity would be for Rajoy to step down, and make way for a more conciliatory government that would look for creative ways to increase Catalonian autonomy without letting them secede.
I disagree. After Puigdemont declared independence, there was no choice but to apply article 155. The elections were just an attempt to return to normality, not a gamble taken by Rajoy. He is the Spanish PM, and just because 2 million catalans don't like him that is not a reason for him to step down. In fact, if he called a snap election in Spain he would quite possibly strengthen his position, and that of Ciudadanos, because Podemos would lose tons of votes.
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Old 28.12.2017, 00:17
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

Barcelona is not Catalonia!

Barcelona and Tarragona are the richest regions of Catalonia and Barcelona had only 38% of the vote on the separatist parties..... Now they use the same arguments of the separatists to decide their future separate of the rest of Catalonia, that is really poor....... what a joke, hahahhaha.

The new country TABARNIA (Tarragona+Barcelona) doesn't have to be in a country (Catalonia) where they don't want to be.

Spain
Catalonia (Girona + Lleida)
Tabarnia (Barcelona + Tarragona) where most of the catalan industry and wealth are.

http://www.bento.de/politik/kataloni...4449/#refsponi



I think that this would be fair.

Bye Catalonia, hallo Tabarnia!





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