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  #41  
Old 21.09.2017, 08:51
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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So after 250ish years, the brits learned their lesson? Glad to hear it.
Eh? England got a Scottish King about 400 years ago. And before that Scotland had been an independent country since Mel Gibson shagged a French queen or something.

Only people on those isles that should have any genuine beef with history is the Oirish.

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This precisely is the core of the matter. Catalonia (or at least so the Catalans claim) cross subsidizes the rest of Spain. If Catalonia broke away, Spain would have a huge government deficit and somebody (cough cough Germany) would have to step up with a fat chequebook.
Sounds like another breakaway that took place recently...
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  #42  
Old 21.09.2017, 08:58
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

I wonder if this will spur on some other European separatist movements? From the Walloons and Flemish, the Basque country, Corsica... there's a few possibilities. It's funny how no international politicians want to comment on the Catalan situation either, and just keep referring to it as "an internal issue", especially in Europe. They're all spineless and toothless.
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  #43  
Old 21.09.2017, 09:08
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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Yes, indeed. Tell that in Northern Ireland...
It seems you're supporting, or better said, sympatise with the Catalan separatist movement so I thought it's worth mentioning her love for the Irish, especially for the Irish Catholics...
She didn't need to love us - or anyone else - there should be no bias to for against any one race or ethnicity only to one's citzens and it's citzenship should be guarded fiercely (sadly forgotten these days).

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(words of wisdom from M.T. to Peter Mandelson on the day he was appointed Secretary for Northern Ireland by the Labour government in 1999)
Peter Mandelson made those comments on the today programme only a few days after she died , he was known as the "Prince of Darkness" and was well known for his economy with the truth. She may well have said those words - and with some justification - as her main negotiating counterpart was one Gerard Adams - who amongst his other achievements had ordered the murder of mother of 10 Jean McConville amongst countless others and swore up and down that not only had he nothing to do with it but had never even been a member of the IRA.

Here's wee Gerry in fancy dress at a party - you might recognise the face behind him - that's a young Martin McGuinness - also a man with plenty of blood on his hands - but at least he was not the pathological liar Adams is.




In short a lot of Irish Catholics held rather the same or stronger views on the IRA than Thatcher.
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  #44  
Old 21.09.2017, 10:01
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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This precisely is the core of the matter. Catalonia (or at least so the Catalans claim) cross subsidizes the rest of Spain. If Catalonia broke away, Spain would have a huge government deficit and somebody (cough cough Germany) would have to step up with a fat chequebook.
It would be interesting to see the (real) numbers and not only their claims.
However, please, please don't mention Germany again because this will turn their nose even more upwards so to speak.
People work everywhere, pay taxes everywhere, let's cut this shit because it started to be really annoying.

I don't think Catalonia will break away from Spain. More autonomy probably yes (wouldn't be better for every region in Europe, actually, and let the people compete against each other a bit, improve things and get a real sense of pride?), but not a different country.
I can see why some want a bit of drama in Europe, but....be careful what you wish for.
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  #45  
Old 21.09.2017, 11:30
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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I wonder if this will spur on some other European separatist movements? From the Walloons and Flemish, the Basque country, Corsica... there's a few possibilities. It's funny how no international politicians want to comment on the Catalan situation either, and just keep referring to it as "an internal issue", especially in Europe. They're all spineless and toothless.
My feeling is that the trouble in the Ukraine isn't over yet. That may well be the next hotbed. Besides the Russian minority we have heard so much about, there are also Romanian, Hungarian and maybe also some other minorities. The Ukrainian government is trying to prop up national unity by taking away their rights. For example right now they are working on a very controversial education bill that will basically say all shools must be taught in Ukrainian only.

Parallels to Spain of 80 years ago.
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  #46  
Old 21.09.2017, 11:37
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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I think your statement is mainly based on the comments you've heard from your friends. There are a few facts, for example, that Catalunia has the highest debt of any region in Spain; I believe I heard something above Eur 200B -but don't quote me on that -and the main holder of such debt is the central government.
I've heard that too.

I've also heard they ran up that debt intentionally as it influnces the way money is distributed between the regions in Spain and having a lot of debt helps them claw back more money.

Sounds like a rather suicidal strategy to me. But looking at some of the craziness going on there, I wouldn't say its impossible.
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  #47  
Old 21.09.2017, 14:32
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

Fascist Spain showing their true colors and it has only emboldened Catalans as they have been protesting in the streets since yesterday. Does not look like this will end well




Visca Catalunya!
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  #48  
Old 21.09.2017, 14:45
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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Fascist Spain
You know the story of the boy who cried wolf?
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  #49  
Old 21.09.2017, 15:04
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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You know the story of the boy who cried wolf?
You do know that story was written by Italian Fascists in the 1930s?

They wrote it to prevent people calling them fascists.

And the trick worked. Despite the media trumpeting the fact, nobody ever worked out Mussolini was really a fascist until he admitted it on his deathbed. This just shows how powerful propaganda can be.
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  #50  
Old 21.09.2017, 15:26
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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Fascist Spain showing their true colors and it has only emboldened Catalans as they have been protesting in the streets since yesterday.
1. Those arrests and police action? That did not happen because the central government ordered it, but because a judge in Barcelona values the justice system Spain has. It's ok to have votes, but they have to follow democratic principles...

2. So why is the referendum not legal? Because the Catalan government voted with 72 to 60 votes, not exactly a massive unity, for a referendum that:
- requires only a simple majority.
- does not require a minimum turnout.
- the deadlines are unnecessarily tight. The local government clearly doesn't want and informed public and decent discussions on what independence actually means.

Simply put: No vote on something this important has ever been done with so a low bar. If only half the people show up to the referendum could just over a quarter of all Catalans decide for independence. And thats not constitutional in Spain or in any other developed country.

It's really that simple: The current Catalan government tries everything in their power to cause a chaos and political instability. There is nothing wrong with having a referendum or even independence. But it has to be done in a democratic and open discourse. The current situation makes the Brexit liars look like reasonable scientists.
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  #51  
Old 21.09.2017, 15:43
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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Despite the media trumpeting the fact, nobody ever worked out Mussolini was really a fascist until he admitted it on his deathbed. This just shows how powerful propaganda can be.
Very powerful - I didn't realise he and mistress were shot in bed
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  #52  
Old 21.09.2017, 16:07
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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Very powerful - I didn't realise he and mistress were shot in bed
Shows just what a powerful instrument propaganda is.
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  #53  
Old 21.09.2017, 16:11
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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1. Those arrests and police action? That did not happen because the central government ordered it, but because a judge in Barcelona values the justice system Spain has. It's ok to have votes, but they have to follow democratic principles...

2. So why is the referendum not legal? Because the Catalan government voted with 72 to 60 votes, not exactly a massive unity, for a referendum that:
- requires only a simple majority.
- does not require a minimum turnout.
- the deadlines are unnecessarily tight. The local government clearly doesn't want and informed public and decent discussions on what independence actually means.

Simply put: No vote on something this important has ever been done with so a low bar. If only half the people show up to the referendum could just over a quarter of all Catalans decide for independence. And thats not constitutional in Spain or in any other developed country.

It's really that simple: The current Catalan government tries everything in their power to cause a chaos and political instability. There is nothing wrong with having a referendum or even independence. But it has to be done in a democratic and open discourse. The current situation makes the Brexit liars look like reasonable scientists.
You really believe national government did not orchestrate the arresting of political leaders and searching governmental buildings but that this is done on behalf on just a Catalan judge? Wow, just Wow..

The people who according to you are not informed:
A survey commissioned by the regional government in July showed that 49.4 percent of Catalans were against independence while 41.1 percent were in favour.

But more than 70 percent of Catalans said they wanted a referendum on independence to settle the issue.


If such majority of people want such a referendum I feel they are entitled to it, and regardless their opinion it is Madrid who is refusing them this referendum.

Also nice to know: Spain's Foreign Minister Alfonso Dastis accused the catalans of Nazi tactics and says that "Referendums are a weapon of choice of dictators,"

Madrid is shitting it's pants over what might happen, and instead of performing reasoning, it acts like it always has acted towards the Catalans.
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  #54  
Old 21.09.2017, 16:15
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

The Spanish government should just resolve the matter by offering a referendum as the UK did for Scotland.
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  #55  
Old 21.09.2017, 16:39
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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You really believe national government did not orchestrate the arresting of political leaders and searching governmental buildings but that this is done on behalf on just a Catalan judge? Wow, just Wow..

The people who according to you are not informed:
A survey commissioned by the regional government in July showed that 49.4 percent of Catalans were against independence while 41.1 percent were in favour.

But more than 70 percent of Catalans said they wanted a referendum on independence to settle the issue.


If such majority of people want such a referendum I feel they are entitled to it, and regardless their opinion it is Madrid who is refusing them this referendum.

Also nice to know: Spain's Foreign Minister Alfonso Dastis accused the catalans of Nazi tactics and says that "Referendums are a weapon of choice of dictators,"

Madrid is shitting it's pants over what might happen, and instead of performing reasoning, it acts like it always has acted towards the Catalans.

Yes, I believe that a Spanish judge does not need to be remote controlled by the government to believe in a justice system and a legal approach to a topic like independence. I am not arguing that the executive really liked to execute his orders... that's the devision of power playing well together to honor a constitution.


It's not the question wether or not to have a referendum. It's:
- what minimum turnout should there be in order to warrant an independence. Anything under 80-85% would in my eyes be wrong.
- in most developed countries do you need a strong majority for important questions. In many does it take a two-third majority in a parliament to change the constitution. This is much more important than a small legal change - should it really be a simple majority?
- the time line of the referendum was pretty quick. Even a normal parliament election is planned many months in advance. Is there really a need to rush this through? Or is it in the hope of giving people not the facts necessary to make an informed decision? Yes, the majority of Catalans want a vote. To get the topic over with as it has been clogging up much needed time and effort. But they didn't say they need it super urgently and in an unconstitutional way. Two very different things.


I'd be all with you if we did not just experience Brexit - a similar case where a too low turnout made the decision against all polls. Where populists were directly lying to the people to get votes. I am not Spanish and can very well live with a new Catalan republic. But I want it to be based from the start on some proper legal status, not some rampaging populists.
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Old 21.09.2017, 16:47
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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It's not the question wether or not to have a referendum. It's:
- what minimum turnout should there be in order to warrant an independence. Anything under 80-85% would in my eyes be wrong.
By that measure, the reciprocal requirement should also be true. For a country to give up its independence, or important elements of its independence, a similar majority should need to vote yes. By that measure not one country has acceeded to the EU legally.

Neither would the German reunification have been legal.

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- in most developed countries do you need a strong majority for important questions. In many does it take a two-third majority in a parliament to change the constitution. This is much more important than a small legal change - should it really be a simple majority?
Good question. The problem is that Spain has never set out any guidance on what the requirements should be. They only said it's impossible. If you don't set the requirements, the danger is that somebody else will.
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  #57  
Old 21.09.2017, 17:02
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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By that measure, the reciprocal requirement should also be true. For a country to give up its independence, or important elements of its independence, a similar majority should need to vote yes. By that measure not one country has acceeded to the EU legally.

Neither would the German reunification have been legal.
The only independent country in this world is North Korea, nobody else is.


I generally believe in the indirect democracy. When people are paid to spend the time to analyze complex topics before voting do you get on average better results than the Brexit example.


Do you really think a majority of Germans on either side had in any way voted against a reunification? Or against the EU? I think the parliament in both cases was easily with a massive majority of the citizen.
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Old 21.09.2017, 17:15
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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I generally believe in the indirect democracy. When people are paid to spend the time to analyze complex topics before voting do you get on average better results than the Brexit example.
this is based on the false assumption that politicians actually understand the topics and, even more important, understand the consequences of these topics.
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Old 21.09.2017, 17:17
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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I generally believe in the indirect democracy. When people are paid to spend the time to analyze complex topics before voting do you get on average better results than the Brexit example.
I consider that a very rosy view of what parliamentarians do, or the depth of their expertese.

Rather than locking themsleves up in their studies and pondering over their consciences, they are more likely being wined and dined by various lobbying and special interest groups.

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Do you really think a majority of Germans on either side had in any way voted against a reunification? Or against the EU? I think the parliament in both cases was easily with a massive majority of the citizen.
You suggested the hurdle should be 80 to 85%. Those are your figures, not mine. That means if only 15% of people in Germany had been against reunification, or against EU accession, it shouldn't have happened. I think it is reasonable to assume that it is not impossible that such a group could have formed and mustered that number of people. Especially if you add in the value of the protest vote.
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Old 21.09.2017, 17:22
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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My feeling is that the trouble in the Ukraine isn't over yet. That may well be the next hotbed. Besides the Russian minority we have heard so much about, there are also Romanian, Hungarian and maybe also some other minorities. The Ukrainian government is trying to prop up national unity by taking away their rights. For example right now they are working on a very controversial education bill that will basically say all shools must be taught in Ukrainian only.

Parallels to Spain of 80 years ago.
Spain should be happy they don't have such an aggressive neighbor as Ukraine has. Otherwise Catalunia would be "independent" long ago.
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