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  #61  
Old 21.09.2017, 17:26
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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Spain should be happy they don't have such an aggressive neighbor as Ukraine has. Otherwise Catalunia would be "independent" long ago.
Don't understimate those Andorrans.
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  #62  
Old 21.09.2017, 17:52
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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2. So why is the referendum not legal? Because the Catalan government voted with 72 to 60 votes, not exactly a massive unity, for a referendum that:
- requires only a simple majority.
- does not require a minimum turnout.
- the deadlines are unnecessarily tight. The local government clearly doesn't want and informed public and decent discussions on what independence actually means.

Simply put: No vote on something this important has ever been done with so a low bar. If only half the people show up to the referendum could just over a quarter of all Catalans decide for independence. And thats not constitutional in Spain or in any other developed country.
Without wanting to keep bringing up Scotland, although it is the only similar situation we have here, for the referendum vote:

- Only a simple majority was required
- There was no minimum turnout
- Only about 70 MSPs from 129 seats supported the referendum
- Any Tom, Dick or Hamish (including EU citizens) over the age of 16 living in Scotland was eligible to vote

Last edited by Loz1983; 21.09.2017 at 18:13. Reason: Typo, had MEPs instead of jockenese
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  #63  
Old 21.09.2017, 17:56
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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Yes, I believe that a Spanish judge does not need to be remote controlled by the government to believe in a justice system and a legal approach to a topic like independence. I am not arguing that the executive really liked to execute his orders... that's the devision of power playing well together to honor a constitution.


It's not the question wether or not to have a referendum. It's:
- what minimum turnout should there be in order to warrant an independence. Anything under 80-85% would in my eyes be wrong.
- in most developed countries do you need a strong majority for important questions. In many does it take a two-third majority in a parliament to change the constitution. This is much more important than a small legal change - should it really be a simple majority?
- the time line of the referendum was pretty quick. Even a normal parliament election is planned many months in advance. Is there really a need to rush this through? Or is it in the hope of giving people not the facts necessary to make an informed decision? Yes, the majority of Catalans want a vote. To get the topic over with as it has been clogging up much needed time and effort. But they didn't say they need it super urgently and in an unconstitutional way. Two very different things.


I'd be all with you if we did not just experience Brexit - a similar case where a too low turnout made the decision against all polls. Where populists were directly lying to the people to get votes. I am not Spanish and can very well live with a new Catalan republic. But I want it to be based from the start on some proper legal status, not some rampaging populists.
They want a vote, however this is not possible in any legal way.

As for the Brits, i find that a very weak argument, people who can't even bring up the effort to vote should be considered meaningless in the proces, they had their change but threw it away.
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  #64  
Old 21.09.2017, 18:09
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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You suggested the hurdle should be 80 to 85%. Those are your figures, not mine. That means if only 15% of people in Germany had been against reunification, or against EU accession, it shouldn't have happened. I think it is reasonable to assume that it is not impossible that such a group could have formed and mustered that number of people. Especially if you add in the value of the protest vote.




Thats not quite right.


Treverus said that for a referedum like this one the bar needs to be much higher. In other words, a referendum where one part of an established nation votes whether or not to go independant and break away from its parent nation.


No EU vote was even remotely similar to that, and neither was the german vote.


The EU votes were to decide if the country should join a common european organisation, not to go independent from its central government. Despite what some silly people think, joining the EU did not affect any nations sovereignty.


And with respect to the German reunification, people were voting to form a new, uniified nation. If you think that is the same as an independence referendum, you really should lie down.
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  #65  
Old 21.09.2017, 18:18
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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And with respect to the German reunification, people were voting to form a new, uniified nation. If you think that is the same as an independence referendum, you really should lie down.
They were not asked about that at all.

They were merely ask to vote who should rule the newly formed country.

What i was saying is that there should be reciprocity in decisons. A decison that is difficult to get through should be difficult to reverse. A decison that is easy to get through should be easy to reverse.

If the constitution said that to raise taxes you need a simple majority, but to reduce them you need 85%, wouldn't that create an undemocratic bias?
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  #66  
Old 21.09.2017, 18:23
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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The only independent country in this world is North Korea, nobody else is.
Define independent. If China stops exporting oil and other fossil fuels, NK stands still soon after.
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  #67  
Old 21.09.2017, 18:28
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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The EU votes were to decide if the country should join a common european organisation, not to go independent from its central government. Despite what some silly people think, joining the EU did not affect any nations sovereignty..

Are you serious? The EU is a supranational organization where in many instances majority decision apply. You give up your monetary sovereignty by adopting the euro. Immigration matters are to a large degree governed at european level. A ruling made by the European Court of Jurstice can overturn any ruling made by a national court. This might all be a good thing but tu say that national sovereignity is not effected is a bit silly.


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And with respect to the German reunification, people were voting to form a new, uniified nation. If you think that is the same as an independence referendum, you really should lie down.

Why? It's pretty much the same. In theory, GDR could also have decided to remain an independant country instead of being taken over by its rich brother.
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  #68  
Old 21.09.2017, 18:35
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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Are you serious? The EU is a supranational organizations where in many instances majority decision apply. You give up your monetary sovereignty by adopting the euro. Immigration matters are to a large degree governed at european level. A ruling made court of European can overturn any ruling made by a national court. This might all be a good thing but tu say that national sovereignity is not effected is a bit silly.

Why? It's pretty much the same. In theory, GDR could also have decided to remain an independant country instead of being taken over by its rich brother.

In each case you choose to adopt the Euro. You choose to embrace a common immigration policy. You choose to give the ECHR the jurisdiction over national courts.


In every case, the decision to pass that responsibility is ratified. This means the country chooses for itself what path it wishes to take. Claiming they are forced to give up sovereignty is, frankly, bollocks.


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They were not asked about that at all.

They were merely ask to vote who should rule the newly formed country.

What i was saying is that there should be reciprocity in decisons. A decison that is difficult to get through should be difficult to reverse. A decison that is easy to get through should be easy to reverse.

If the constitution said that to raise taxes you need a simple majority, but to reduce them you need 85%, wouldn't that create an undemocratic bias?


Then it still isnt comparable to the catalan referendum, is it?


You can argue that it might create an undemocratic bias (which i dont btw), but if it was mroe difficult to reverse decisions, people would probably take more care before they made the first decision.


Case in point: If people knew that reducing taxes was much harder then icreasing taxes, they would be forced to really question the value of the tax rise in the first place.
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  #69  
Old 21.09.2017, 18:44
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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What i was saying is that there should be reciprocity in decisons. A decison that is difficult to get through should be difficult to reverse. A decison that is easy to get through should be easy to reverse.

If the constitution said that to raise taxes you need a simple majority, but to reduce them you need 85%, wouldn't that create an undemocratic bias?
Not necessarily. Perhaps the resulting difficulties should also be considered.

Joining seems much simpler, especially if one side determines the applicable rules after the union. If you've overlooked something you may be able to keep the status ante until new agreements have been reached because there's a clear legal successor state.

With a split however, especially like Brexit where there can't be foreing law or rule post-split, everything must be agreed upon by a certain date. Negotiations are much more complicated, just think about getting agreement on how to split debts and assets. It's not clear who the legal successor is, which opens a dozen cans of worms, and probably neither will want to be for fear of taking unknown and uncalculatable risks. People and businesses need time to prepare, and if the proposition is rejected not only have all preparations been wasted but possibly necessary actoins under this different(original) set of rules have not been undertaken, to boot.
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Old 21.09.2017, 19:04
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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In each case you choose to adopt the Euro. You choose to embrace a common immigration policy. You choose to give the ECHR the jurisdiction over national courts.


In every case, the decision to pass that responsibility is ratified. This means the country chooses for itself what path it wishes to take. Claiming they are forced to give up sovereignty is, frankly, bollocks.
I didn't say they forced to give up sovereignty. I said that your claim that these decisions don't involve the loss of sovereignty is incorrect.
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  #71  
Old 22.09.2017, 13:57
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

The last succesful independence move that involved an established country allowing part of its territory to become an independent state in a peaceful manner was the breakup of Czechoslovakia in 1992.

At that time nobody demanded an 85% majority, but the breakup took place in an orderly and civilized way, with the two countries remaining good friends and allies.

Any lessons here?
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Old 22.09.2017, 20:42
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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The last succesful independence move that involved an established country allowing part of its territory to become an independent state in a peaceful manner was the breakup of Czechoslovakia in 1992.

At that time nobody demanded an 85% majority, but the breakup took place in an orderly and civilized way, with the two countries remaining good friends and allies.

Any lessons here?
Yes. The main lesson is not to form artificial countires, as they don't last.
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  #73  
Old 23.09.2017, 02:52
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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Yes. The main lesson is not to form artificial countires, as they don't last.
Like Switzerland?
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  #74  
Old 23.09.2017, 03:16
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

Singapore is also highly unstable
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  #75  
Old 23.09.2017, 06:34
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Dear forum members,
I have been browsing your forum as I am unable to sleep, somewhat anguished at what is happening in my currently suspended Autonomy. I feel compelled to do something to vent my ideas where people outside my country may understand what is happening here from our - as Catalans - or maybe just mine - as a Catalan finding herself in some ugly-looking turn of events, rendered so because of opposing perspectives and stubborn unwillingness to dialogue on the part of some whom I view as inept, dictarorial characters. I guess the Spanish perspective has been widely discussed. Of all forums I have browsed, yours seems to be the most informed, less visceral than the vast majority based on rumours rather than facts. Anyway, I feel compelled to reply to some of your entries, being a Catalan-born citizen with a multilingual background. So i respectfully ask you to bear with me, be patient and allow me to give my own opinions on what has been discussed here so far. I might break this discussion into various pasrs as I eill be quoting some of you to reply as I see fit, always from a civilized, respectful position, and I would ask of you the same respect.

I am not quite familiar with forums, and I am learning to quote for reply. Also, groping all I have to say here, I might get too long a post, so I will go step by step. Also, I am a foreign language teacher, and I know a lot about linguistics, but have never been political, don't know much about international law or pot+litics, but have often contributedto Amnesty Internatilanl letter campaigns to free politically harassed people, and with Greenpeace, signing campaigns too. Now I find our political leaders are being arrested for claiming the right to a democratic VOTE, with a COMMITMENT to respect qwhatever the outcome is, whether we like it or not, whether the Spaniards like it or not, not forcing the YES to independence, as a majority of NO is likewise a probable outcome.

Thanks for your understanding. I proceed now to replying to those of you I feel I have to contribute my personal perspective.

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The EU? Most of the Spanish people are against it, except for the Catalans of course.

Plus the article is stating exactly that - the Spanish government is taking some measures not EU. Before being an European "problem" is a Spanish one. In fact, I bet EU would like a bit of divide et impera.
Yes, a Spanish problem created by Spanish stubborn leaders who won't dialogue even if they lie about it.

Since when is it legal to arrest prominent politicians, AND REGISTER THEIR HOMES AND OFFICES WITHOUT A WARRANT? This is happening here.
Since when is a claim for democratic vote a crime?
I cannot understand this.

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Madrid reacts how it always has reacted towards Catalonia, repression.
Absolutely true. I was born in 1959. I have suffered the dictatorship in my own flesh. As a child, I was insulted, derided, punished and even hit by the nuns and the teachers of the "Seccion Femenina" just for speaking Catalan, or having a Catalan accent when speaking Spanish. Even my surname was "Spanishized" (I e, translated from Catalan to Spanish). As a six or seven year old child I couldn't understand why this happened. I often forgot to respond to my "Spanishized" surname, which earned me some stupid physical punishmments at the time. As I grew up I came to understand that speaking Catalan was shameful and unlawful from a Spanish perspective. So I was breaking the law when speaking my mother tongue... Unbelievable! If this isbn't repression, what is?

Now I have grown up I thought we had overcome that dreadful dictatorship. I was wrong. When the most recent terrorist attacks happened this August, there were several tweets in twitter saying that the terrorists should have killed more Catalans, we should be gassed like the Jews... If this isn't harassment and ethnic discrimination, what is?

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Do you have a source for that? Because most of the Spaniards I know (inc most of my friends in Madrid) are pro EU
True. Most Spaniards - including Catalans - are pro EU. Only a minority of nostalgics from Franco's era bark against it. Unfortunately, those are the same who are cropping up from widespread fascist corruption, making noise agains the Catalans or whatever other nationality they deem "inferior". Those I call "Carpetovetónicos", meaning they believe themselves to be the one and only truly Spanish people, the conquistadores qwho subjugated the country into "una, grande, libre", stepping on their subjects into enforced submission. Really, a minority who are now dominating this escalade towards political, physical repression of dissidents.

Last edited by 3Wishes; 23.09.2017 at 19:00. Reason: merging consecutive replies, try the multi-quote button, to the right of quote :)
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  #76  
Old 23.09.2017, 07:40
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Well, the majority of the Spanish are actually against the referendum (sorry, it's in Spanish)

http://www.elmundo.es/espana/2017/09...e518b461f.html

And doing a referendum which is basically illegal / has no legitimacy leads nowhere...

https://www.ft.com/content/eb770a58-...2-cde3f882dd7b

That being said, the outcome is complicated. The Spanish government strategy was basically to do nothing, hoping that these guys will calm down and forget about that...which didn't happen, and here we are now.

Side note: good that I'm going to Barcelona next weekend

More or less true. While most Spanish peoploe are against the independence of Catalonia, as of the latest week, a higher percentage are not opposed to a democratic referendum. If celebrated before this turn of events, I am fairly certain the NO to independence would have won. After the undemocratic, illegal intervention of our autonomic finances and the arrest of prominent local politicians, the threat to democracy has become a bigger issue. Today, the YES to independence might win, even with a narrow margin

As for the referendum being "basically illegal" I must point out it is so FROM A SPANISH perspective, who have created some unjust laws to render independence impossible, the unity of Spaimn untouchable, the historical memory of franco's era forgotten, the riches they confiscated or have been appropriating in their corruption unprosecutable... I remember Ghandi said, "when a law is unjust, the correct thing is to disobey" Rose Park was breaking the law when she refused to get up from her seat and claim the end of apartheid and color discrimination. Martin Luther King said "civil disob edience is justified before an unjust law, and every omne of us has the moral responsuibility to disobey unjust laws".

I am not saying that anyone can disobey any laws so happily. I am saying that the basic human rights of the people are above any unjust laws. As the court in the Hague ruled, if I am not mistaken, about the independence of Kosovo, "there is no rule in international law that prohibits the declarations of independence"


True, in a way: Going back a long time ago, the autonomous self-government of Catalonia has gradually bbeen more and more debased by the central government, granting some non-belligerent, fully-comp`lying communities qwith a lot more privileges while denying equal treatment to Catalonia. Not only that, but the original parameters of such autonomy have been more and more degraded by Spain, denying us competences granted to other communities. Why? Because of our reluctance to bow to them? Because we claim the recognition of our historical background whereas these others don't? Great.

About our claims, first for equality, then for recognition, third for ending of corruption, giving back historical archives stolen from us, financing us in equal terms to other communities, true, the Spanish government did nothing at first, hoping we would give up tired of their silence. wBut if anything, we CAtalans are persistent. We never gave up our native language even under Franco's boot. We won't renounce to our centuries-long wish to recover the independence that was stolen from us by the power of weapons. we have never resorted to violence the ETA way (despite some skirmishes with an ETA-minded group, Terra LLiure, wich didn't last long) We have throughout most of our history fought for our rights with the word and with hard work, with peaceful demonstrations the civilized way, not turning terrorists.

And yes, stubborn as we are, but non-violent, the ones who want to subdue us by foirce are the Spanish. we have been in the streets with flowers,. TGhey, with guns.

I say no more here.

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I spoke to many Catalans during my trips last years. Though not every one wants independence, they all are dissatisfied by the fact that Spain gets so much revenue from the region but spends little there.

Before it gets ugly (The report says "The separatists have promised to declare independence within days if, as expected, the Yes vote prevails at the referendum."), Spain should start negotiating and give more autonomy to the region and spend more money on the local schools etc.
True. Most of us would accept a better deal with the rest of Spain, with the centralist central government. Since they have denied us that, and even taken more, with nothing but derision in return, many think "so they dont want us as equals, so let us go!"

As for the spending on money in schools, the educational and the health system (formerly one of the best in Europe, in my opinion) not only in Catalonia, have been deteriorating thanks to corrupotion under guise of "the crisis".

A thorough cleansing of those who prevaricate and take public funds for their own, whitewashing their inept, corrupt management of public finances would be necessary, not only in Spain but elsewhere, but this is another topic.

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Arrested for wanting independence. Unbelievable.

Spain need to be careful how they deal with this, if the crackdown is too strong then there'll be a backlash.

The UK should be proud for allowing the Scottish referendum vote to go ahead. Referendums and self determination are the way forward.
Yes, unbelievable. But sadly true. Up with the right to frreedom of speech...

We would have been happy with a referendum the Scottish way. We never sought reckless confrontation, we proposed a civilized, lawful referendum, based on international law, well fundamented. Even if it goes against untouchable unjust laws.

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Well, after having lived in both Barcelona and Madrid for some time I have always felt there's tension, but it will never get to the point of actual conflict. I was wrong. What Madrid did is just stupid. It might be lawful, but stupid as it only feeds on the fear of the Catalans that Madrid is oppressive. I would imagine that the % of Catalans that support separation has only increased now. Lets see...
Absolutely true.

Last edited by 3Wishes; 23.09.2017 at 19:02. Reason: merging consecutive replies
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  #77  
Old 23.09.2017, 08:09
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The Catalans had their say 40 years ago. I may be mistaken but I think the Scots never did after the unification, this is a crucial difference.
That's arguable. We did have some semblance of a say when the post-Franco constitution was signed by the powers-that-were way then. since there was a risk of involution, since the civil was was still far too fresh in the minds of the people then, since that was the best we could hope for given the circumstances, we did sign the Autonomies new regime, hoping we could get a better deal a posteriori averting the risk of a new dictator or a renewal of hostilities.

True, theScots didn't have that, and it's a ¡difference, but they have been able to VOTE. That's all we want, really. If we get a Yes, all the better. But we will accept the outcome. Maybe hoping for another chance, another day. Is it reaslly so difficult to respect different communities? without subduing them by force?

By the way, that early autonomy was far more autonomous and real than the parody of it we have today,, and even this one has been suspended in the insidious politicking to prevent us from voting.

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My Euskadi family members are pro independence for Catalunya ...simply because a) it is something they have also wanted for their own region for ever, and
b) like with the Catalans, anything against Madrid is a band wagon worth jumping on.


So no, you are wrong with that assumption.
Absolutely true

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I know several Spaniards who are not Catalans but who are rooting for Catalan independence. There are several other independence movements waiting on the sidelines and not drawing too much atention to themselves but they would jump after Catalonia's coattails if they were succesful.
Yes Galicia, Andalusia, the Canary Islands.... All historical regions conquered by the force of weapons or through enforced marriages whose native communities have bes subjected to a too strong centralist government with a colonial mind of plundering their subjects. No wonder so many want out.

Is it so difficult to get a federation or a confederation of equals? Like Switzerland. Like Germany. I would subscribe to that.

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In what way do you mean?

Catalans tend to paint themselves as having been agains Franco. But if you look at history, support was pretty strong for him in Catalonia too. I guess they only remember the things in history they want to remember.

Same as any other nation really.
Arguable. While it is true that some Catalans were pro Franco, many were against Franco. It's not that we remember things at our convenience. In my own family I've had members of both sides hating one's anothers' guts. Half my family was forcibly exiled to Mexico or faced execution by Franco's partisans. The other half were in Franco's ranks. You don't know how stressing it is to be careful about what you say to whom in your own family, lest either the Republicans or the Fascists could kill your parents for stupid political reasons.That's when I decided that politics sucks.

Last edited by 3Wishes; 23.09.2017 at 19:03. Reason: merging consecutive replies
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Old 23.09.2017, 08:33
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It's not just one other region. Balearics, Valencia, and also some others also have independence movements. Only they aren't quite as strong or vocal or organized. But that can all change.
True. In these communities PP influence has been stronger, so the're kless vocal about it. BUt it doesn't mean they don't exist.

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Isn't independence a way of making large groups less large?
Or rather, a way of respecting different ethnicities, by granting them the same right as others to exist as a people not subjected to any conquerors. a way to acknowledge a people the right to self-rule.

And anyway, independent countries can always federate or confederate to progress and help one another.

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why, you'll sort it out within two days?


<<chanting “Occupying forces out” and “Where is Europe?”.>> does that only to me sound contradictory?

What Spain does is counter-productive. If they don't know that they really should be left behind, who wants a stupid governement?
However, how much money (tourism, mineral resources etc. etc.) will Spain lose if Catalonia goes independent? Because that is what this is all about - again - no?
Absolutely true. we are the hen of the golden eggs. They hoard the eggs, we starve. They lose the hen, no more eggs to hoard.
Instead of negotiating as we have been asking for ages,- the intelligent thing to do - we've been denied, ignored, denied, ignored, denied, derided, ignored, threatened... -. the stupid thing to do - till this situation has deteriorated, till it's come to whatever ugly mess we have today

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I'd like to read up more about this if you could share a link, I learned that Catalonia fought against Franco to defend the Second Spanish Republic, and after they lost Franco took away their autonomy, and the whole catalonian region suffered for years under boycots.

So how big was support according to you? I find it hard to believe that majority or a group even close to that would support such.

In every country Germany invaded thousands of people cheered for the nazi's taking over, that does not say in any way that those countries were supportive towards the nazi's.
Yes. Not only that. Speaking Catalan in public was forbidden by Franco's unjust law. At first, if a Spaniard caught you speaking Catalan, you could be imprisoned and even executed. Just for speaking a forbidden language. I still remember how we used to hide our Catalan books lest there was a police raid, since possession of anything written in Catalan - even religious poetryor narrative, like Verdaguer's - was prohibited and deemed rebellious. Later, this horrid pressure to suppres our language subsided, but I was still punished and derided for it, fore my accent, or foer being born a CAtalan with a Catalan name and surname which I refused to "spanishize".
As time went by, such pressure became less, but still even recently there has been an ongoing boycott against the cataklan language with a pathetic PP effort to change the name of any Catala-related accents and dialects into an absurd so-called "dialect" which eliminated the word "catalan" from the variety of the language spoken between Catalonia and aragon aka LAPAO (Lengua Aragonesa Propia del Área Oriental = Language of Aragon Spoken in the Eastern Area) and

Catalan products in Spain.

So you see. Boycotted, our language forbidden at first, barely tolerated later, even untaught and its name changed... Parking a car in Madrid with a Brcelona licence plate used to be a risk before those were reformed, all mention of their community eliminated to avoid the continuous incidents that damaged your car (chasis deliberate scratches, outright insuldts painted on rear window and doors...)

So we weren't gassed like the Jews or massacred like the Serbs did to non-Serbs. But we were still discriminated. We still ARE discriminated against. No wonder many of us want out. True, not all of us. Some are properly tamed into submission or have chosen out of their free will to become Spanish rather than Catalan. I respect that. I ask for the same respect in return.

And yes, there were mostly Nazis in Germany, fascists in Italy, collaborationists in France. Just as there also were freedom figthers, resistence fighters and non-nazis, non-fascists, too. same happened here with francoists and republicans.

Last edited by 3Wishes; 23.09.2017 at 19:04. Reason: merging consecutive replies
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Old 23.09.2017, 09:31
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I'd like to read up more about this if you could share a link, I learned that Catalonia fought against Franco to defend the Second Spanish Republic, and after they lost Franco took away their autonomy, and the whole catalonian region suffered for years under boycots.

So how big was support according to you? I find it hard to believe that majority or a group even close to that would support such.

In every country Germany invaded thousands of people cheered for the nazi's taking over, that does not say in any way that those countries were supportive towards the nazi's.
About links: The most basic one summarizing Catalabn History in a rather simple way https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Catalonia

A very succint timeline; http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-20345073

Same from a Catalan perspective: http://www.cataloniavotes.eu/en/back...lonia/history/

Not so easy to find good, accurate material in
English....

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In a war, and especially in a civil war, it is not always correct to assume the will or political persuasion of the generals is also that of the people. Some Catalans fought against Franco. The Catalan government fought against Franco courtesy of guns supplied by uncle Stalin, while Franco of course fought back with the help of Hitler and Mussolini. It wasn't really a Spanish war at all but it was a war between foreign powers fought on Spanish soil. The Spanish Civil War was a very nasty affair and both sides performed terrible war crimes. Google the white terror versus the red terror.

There are plenty of examples of political alignments that do not match the simplified picture of Catalonia being deeply republican. The republicans actually destroyed Gaudi's archives, including the plans for the Sagrada Famila, a Catalan nationalist symbol. Many monuments to Catalan nationalist heroes still have bullet holes in them, not fired by nationalist troops but by republican ones. The Catatalan people were far too conservative and reactionary for the tastes of the Republicans, who took it on themselves to teach them a lesson or two. But it has been a Catalan virtue that they have always resisted whoever was trying to tell them what to do, even those pretending it was for their own good. As Republican troops retreated, their leaders sent out an order that all of Barcelona was to be destroyed in a huge fire so that Franco would not have any benefit of it. Catalan people, actually republican deserters, sabotaged those plans.
Mostly true. But destruction of Gaudi's art was due to ideological extremists against the church, christian beliefs and political stupid radicalism. Both sides did many regrettable things. Some, killing believers. The others, killing atheists. republicans against fascists and vice versa. And the Russian communist politics of burned land didn't suceed here because WE HAVE ALWAYS RESISTED WHOEVER TRIES TO TELL US WHAT TO DO.

I emphasize the part I have marked in bold.

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I think your statement is mainly based on the comments you've heard from your friends. There are a few facts, for example, that Catalunia has the highest debt of any region in Spain; I believe I heard something above Eur 200B -but don't quote me on that -and the main holder of such debt is the central government. So I guess both parties would suffer equally in that sense. Ah, I almost forgot, but although according to the polls the majority of the catalans are for the right to vote, those same polls state that the majority do not want independence. So an interesting situation.
The main reason for not allowing them to vote at this point is because it is constitutionally illegal. I guess efforts should first go to change the constitution to allow this kind of referendums, instead of forcing them this way. That could trigger a good discussion around autonomy of the different regions in Spain and could eventually result in further support to the separatists in Catalunya.

My humble opinion as spanish is that there is an absence of historical support to this independence request -Catalunia has never been an independent kingdom- and if you go back 20 years ago, there was very few people in Catalunya that wanted or even talked about independence. There has been a systematic approach to request more and more autonomy for the region in the last 20 years and that partially has fostered this situation.
Please allow me to respectfully disagree. As a CAtalan, I believe our concepts of "independent kingdom" are vastly different. Ypou mean ?"independent" as in "kingdom of Castilla", or "knigdom of England." I suggest you read thjis document:
http://www.cataloniavotes.eu/en/back...lonia/history/. From it, I quote [quote removed, people can read for themselves if interested]

I think this contests the claim that Catalonia was never independent. As a Kingdom? certainly not. We chose to call our sytem of government a "principality", which was de facto as free as any other kingdom. so we start by having a different set of concepts here. True, we were confederated with the kingdom of Aragon. The confederatoion lasted way past the union of Castille and Aragon,Until our defeat by Philip V, In the eighteenth century. Having been independent from the ninth century.

According to the wikipedia, "A principality (or princedom) can either be a monarchical feudatory or a sovereign state, ruled or reigned over by a monarch with the title of prince or by a monarch with another title within the generic use of the term prince." That we were. and even if associated with the kingdom of Aragon, the governing bodies were separated. we had self-rule in the confederation.

So if one does not accept the concept of principality in equal terms as that of "kingdom", thats when feelings may clash because when one only gives the rank of free state to a kingdom ignoring equivalent terms, misunderstandings happen. This, together with the acceptance of what a confederation was then. Hence the opposing views about our perceived independence or non-independence the opposed factions argue.

If only some consensus could be reached and narrow minds unnarrowed.

As for the debt... Yeah, we are deeply indebted, Thanks to the unjust way of money reverting to us from general taxes, among other thinks. Most of our revenue does get elsewhere, with little or no return (Aena) Also, different financing venues make for differences in budgetary debt, depending on what one counts. And inept administration, corruption, prevarication...

As for wanting to vote yet there being a perceived majority against independence... Possibly true. so what's the problem with voting anyway, if a repeat of what happened in Scotland happens in Catalonia? If the repressive measures had been avoided, that would have been the most likely outcome. Forcing the issue may have had the opposite effect, increasing the desire for independence.

Last edited by 3Wishes; 23.09.2017 at 19:14. Reason: merging consecutive replies
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Old 23.09.2017, 10:53
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This precisely is the core of the matter. Catalonia (or at least so the Catalans claim) cross subsidizes the rest of Spain. If Catalonia broke away, Spain would have a huge government deficit and somebody (cough cough Germany) would have to step up with a fat chequebook.
Yes, we Catalans do claim that. I can give you facts and figures if you like, just tell me and I'll include proof here to the best of my abilities, I already mentioned the example of AENA, the air navigation manager in Spain, certified for the provision of en route, approach, etc.
As seen in this article,

http://www.naciodigital.cat/noticia/...estatal?rlc=a2

The airport of El Prat (Barcelona) contributes 55% of revenue whereas the state investment is a bare 7%. And this happens at all levels, too.

And yes, if we broke away, there would be a huge problem. Like I said, exploit the hen with the golden eggs, enslave it, don't give anything but despising in return, and one day she may refuse to comply. Which is where we seem to be now, an undesirable situation.

Hence the Spanish fear of losing us and the desperate measures to prevent this from happening with unintelligent, undialoguing, undesirable, counterproductive, precipitated, dictarorial policies.

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I wonder if this will spur on some other European separatist movements? From the Walloons and Flemish, the Basque country, Corsica... there's a few possibilities. It's funny how no international politicians want to comment on the Catalan situation either, and just keep referring to it as "an internal issue", especially in Europe. They're all spineless and toothless.
Maybe. I think all of those you quote have historical issues with having been conquered by the foirce of arms, with a former history of loist independence, language and exploitation issues... In fact Euskadi and Catalonia have suffered the same oppresion, the difference being ETA.

If only the state-nation stage were overcome like once the city-states evolved into countries. Any problem with peaceful evolution? Cannot we accept different ethnic / linguistic / historical groups in equal terms, working together for a common, RESPECTFUL goal, like being in the EU? Couldn't a federation or a confederation work better than mere domination of reluctant social groups? whenever will we humans learn true solidarity and respect of the difference?

By the way, I want to apologize for the numerous typos I keep having. My arthritic hands often play me this kind of tricks, And I feel so compelled to reply that I don't revise my writing as I should. I hope you can read through the typos and be patient with me. Thank you very much.

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My feeling is that the trouble in the Ukraine isn't over yet. That may well be the next hotbed. Besides the Russian minority we have heard so much about, there are also Romanian, Hungarian and maybe also some other minorities. The Ukrainian government is trying to prop up national unity by taking away their rights. For example right now they are working on a very controversial education bill that will basically say all shools must be taught in Ukrainian only.

Parallels to Spain of 80 years ago.
Exactly. What's the problem with multilingualism? Oh yeah. All goes down to power, domination, imposition, fear of losinf face or losing territory, goods, power...

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I've heard that too.

I've also heard they ran up that debt intentionally as it influnces the way money is distributed between the regions in Spain and having a lot of debt helps them claw back more money.

Sounds like a rather suicidal strategy to me. But looking at some of the craziness going on there, I wouldn't say its impossible.
Can't say whether it's true. Might be. desperate times call for desperate measures,no? It doesn't mean I condone this. I concur, it's a suicidal strategy if true, Maybe the only available one. Or the easy one.

I'm no economist, but I think most giovvernments act similarly

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By that measure, the reciprocal requirement should also be true. For a country to give up its independence, or important elements of its independence, a similar majority should need to vote yes. By that measure not one country has acceeded to the EU legally.

Neither would the German reunification have been legal.

Good question. The problem is that Spain has never set out any guidance on what the requirements should be. They only said it's impossible. If you don't set the requirements, the danger is that somebody else will.
TRue

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You really believe national government did not orchestrate the arresting of political leaders and searching governmental buildings but that this is done on behalf on just a Catalan judge? Wow, just Wow..

The people who according to you are not informed:
A survey commissioned by the regional government in July showed that 49.4 percent of Catalans were against independence while 41.1 percent were in favour.

But more than 70 percent of Catalans said they wanted a referendum on independence to settle the issue.


If such majority of people want such a referendum I feel they are entitled to it, and regardless their opinion it is Madrid who is refusing them this referendum.

Also nice to know: Spain's Foreign Minister Alfonso Dastis accused the catalans of Nazi tactics and says that "Referendums are a weapon of choice of dictators,"

Madrid is shitting it's pants over what might happen, and instead of performing reasoning, it acts like it always has acted towards the Catalans.
well said.

Last edited by 3Wishes; 23.09.2017 at 19:16. Reason: merging consecutive replies
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