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  #81  
Old 23.09.2017, 11:43
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Without wanting to keep bringing up Scotland, although it is the only similar situation we have here, for the referendum vote:

- Only a simple majority was required
- There was no minimum turnout
- Only about 70 MSPs from 129 seats supported the referendum
- Any Tom, Dick or Hamish (including EU citizens) over the age of 16 living in Scotland was eligible to vote
I say again, legality depends on the color of the crystal yoou use to see... Or is in the eye of the beholder.

If like happened in Spain whern the Transition you intend to foolproof your concept of country by prohibiting reforms or hindering them so much they become de facto untouchable, cry wolf when the threat of sedition becomes real. The smart thing to do was appease and compromise, accept and equalize, minimize perceived ills with intelligent policies, appeal to unity in a good, cooperative way. But instead, they sowed tempests. They denied, boycotted, postured, defied, despised, derided, imposed, restricted, unnegotiated. And now they - I mean the immovilist Spaniards in the ruling party today - are reaping what they sowed. Division, rebellion civil disobedience. The unilateral creation of new klaws based on interbnational legislation, the rulings of The HAgue for the right to self-rule, the UN ruklles, and even unacknowledged precedents.

So the end of apartheid was also illegal. Rose Parlk s broke segregation laws. When America seceded from British rule, it was also illega. THe British Empire wqould hardly tolerate secessionl. Even Czeh self-rule, peaceful and modelic as I think it was, broke with established rules and got away wuith it without anyone fainting at such an outrage. Ironically speaking, I mean.

Minorities getting away from opressing majorities shouldn't scandalize anyone.

Oh, but we Catalans are no kurds, no,Kosovans. We haven't been massacred, mass murdered, mass imprisoned. Not after Franco, anyway.

Being derided, boyycotted and discriminated against does not count? One has to be massacred to have their human rights respected?

I wish I knew why.

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They were not asked about that at all.

They were merely ask to vote who should rule the newly formed country.

What i was saying is that there should be reciprocity in decisons. A decison that is difficult to get through should be difficult to reverse. A decison that is easy to get through should be easy to reverse.

If the constitution said that to raise taxes you need a simple majority, but to reduce them you need 85%, wouldn't that create an undemocratic bias?
exactly my point

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The last succesful independence move that involved an established country allowing part of its territory to become an independent state in a peaceful manner was the breakup of Czechoslovakia in 1992.

At that time nobody demanded an 85% majority, but the breakup took place in an orderly and civilized way, with the two countries remaining good friends and allies.

Any lessons here?
·Wish it were possible in Catalonia too. After all we may be stubborn burt have always chosen negotiation over confrontation.

Last edited by 3Wishes; 23.09.2017 at 19:16. Reason: merging consecutive replies
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  #82  
Old 23.09.2017, 12:03
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By browsing the internet in search of some place where I could explain what I am experiencing about this situation , where I could share ideas with respectful people who might or might not have a well informed, unbiased idea about the Catalan situation. Contrasting opposing ideas even, in a civilized manner. Thank you for reading my posts.

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Moont, how did you find this forum?
Does it make you feel good and right if some of the users agree with you?

Funny note: two of my village men, an Italian and a Spaniard, were discussing yesterday about the constitutionality of this referendum. The Italian firmly believed it is unconstitutional, the poor Catalan (I assumed) tried to convince him of the opposite. I don't know how the discussion ended up, the funny part was that each talked to the other in their native language...you couldn't make that up.
I finished my coffee and went home....I'll probably see them again, same place, same hour, talking about the same thing next week.
Of course. And even if others don't. i don't pretend to have all the answers, be on the absolute right. I only wish to clarify, contrast and share, present my side in the same light as those who may oppose me present their side. That's how civilized deiscussion starts and agreements are reached even if one may only agree to disagree, tight?

Well, Italian, Spanish, Catalan and French are Roman languages mostly derived from Latin. So it's quite easy to understand one another if willing. That's why learning French and Italian were so easy for me. That, ad an innate ease to learn foreign languages, I guess.

How many languages do you speak?

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  #83  
Old 23.09.2017, 13:19
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

Dear Moont
You have hijacked this thread

While I understand that this subject is important to you and specially now probably haunts your dreams even, you wrote so many posts and repeated yourself in many.

If you want to be heard "less is often more". You linked your blog somewhere which is the place where one posts alone. This here should be a discussion but to be honest, it feels a bit like you're talking without breathing and nobody will get a word in
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Old 23.09.2017, 13:50
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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Dear Moont
You have hijacked this thread

While I understand that this subject is important to you and specially now probably haunts your dreams even, you wrote so many posts and repeated yourself in many.

If you want to be heard "less is often more". You linked your blog somewhere which is the place where one posts alone. This here should be a discussion but to be honest, it feels a bit like you're talking without breathing and nobody will get a word in
Quoting the same post multiple times and responding on his own postings makes it indeed a bit hard to follow up.

This could have been the longest multi-quote in the history of EF.
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Old 23.09.2017, 16:57
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Dear Moont
You have hijacked this thread

While I understand that this subject is important to you and specially now probably haunts your dreams even, you wrote so many posts and repeated yourself in many.

If you want to be heard "less is often more". You linked your blog somewhere which is the place where one posts alone. This here should be a discussion but to be honest, it feels a bit like you're talking without breathing and nobody will get a word in
I apologize. Overstepped myself out of maybe undue enthusiasm.

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Quoting the same post multiple times and responding on his own postings makes it indeed a bit hard to follow up.

This could have been the longest multi-quote in the history of EF.
sorry. My mistake.

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Old 23.09.2017, 19:40
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

A Spanish colleague of mine told me that the Catalonian nationalist movement since years is bullying the people living in Catalonia to either join the nationalist side or suffer, using various tactics (examples: by law there should be also some Spanish-language schools, so they were created but devoid of means; Catalonian is a must at university so people from outside cannon come study; businesses like shops are de facto forbidden from using Spanish; people dare not to post a Spanish flag). According to him the very active and vocal movement and local gov't hijacked somewhat the democratic process and thus even an independence vote now would be also done under pressure, and there is a "silent majority" who is unable to resists but doesn't support the separatist movement.
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Old 23.09.2017, 23:26
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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Arrested for wanting independence. Unbelievable.

Spain need to be careful how they deal with this, if the crackdown is too strong then there'll be a backlash.

The UK should be proud for allowing the Scottish referendum vote to go ahead. Referendums and self determination are the way forward.
Totally agree. As a Spaniard, I would want Catalonia to be part of Spain. But they should be able to decide through a legitimate referendum vote, like UK did with Scotland. With open dialog, this problem would have ended long time ago. Repression will foster hate against Spain and the independentism problem will inevitably grow.
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Old 23.09.2017, 23:42
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

3 post and joining a few days ago to the forum.... uhm, I guess is right what I heard that the catalonian governement is paying for propaganda in the net. Smart move, I must say.

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I say again, legality depends on the color of the crystal yoou use to see... Or is in the eye of the beholder.

If like happened in Spain whern the Transition you intend to foolproof your concept of country by prohibiting reforms or hindering them so much they become de facto untouchable, cry wolf when the threat of sedition becomes real. The smart thing to do was appease and compromise, accept and equalize, minimize perceived ills with intelligent policies, appeal to unity in a good, cooperative way. But instead, they sowed tempests. They denied, boycotted, postured, defied, despised, derided, imposed, restricted, unnegotiated. And now they - I mean the immovilist Spaniards in the ruling party today - are reaping what they sowed. Division, rebellion civil disobedience. The unilateral creation of new klaws based on interbnational legislation, the rulings of The HAgue for the right to self-rule, the UN ruklles, and even unacknowledged precedents.

So the end of apartheid was also illegal. Rose Parlk s broke segregation laws. When America seceded from British rule, it was also illega. THe British Empire wqould hardly tolerate secessionl. Even Czeh self-rule, peaceful and modelic as I think it was, broke with established rules and got away wuith it without anyone fainting at such an outrage. Ironically speaking, I mean.

Minorities getting away from opressing majorities shouldn't scandalize anyone.

Oh, but we Catalans are no kurds, no,Kosovans. We haven't been massacred, mass murdered, mass imprisoned. Not after Franco, anyway.

Being derided, boyycotted and discriminated against does not count? One has to be massacred to have their human rights respected?

I wish I knew why.



exactly my point



·Wish it were possible in Catalonia too. After all we may be stubborn burt have always chosen negotiation over confrontation.
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Old 23.09.2017, 23:45
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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Totally agree. As a Spaniard, I would want Catalonia to be part of Spain. But they should be able to decide through a legitimate referendum vote, like UK did with Scotland. With open dialog, this problem would have ended long time ago. Repression will foster hate against Spain and the independentism problem will inevitably grow.

And another one just joining and making an opinion on this subject. Good cop/bad cop. Excellent strategy. By the way, very few of us call ourselves spaniard (we like better spanish ).
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Old 24.09.2017, 05:55
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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Totally agree. As a Spaniard, I would want Catalonia to be part of Spain. But they should be able to decide through a legitimate referendum vote, like UK did with Scotland. With open dialog, this problem would have ended long time ago. Repression will foster hate against Spain and the independentism problem will inevitably grow.
This makes sense to me.
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Old 24.09.2017, 09:21
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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A Spanish colleague of mine told me that the Catalonian nationalist movement since years is bullying the people living in Catalonia to either join the nationalist side or suffer, using various tactics (examples: by law there should be also some Spanish-language schools, so they were created but devoid of means; Catalonian is a must at university so people from outside cannon come study; businesses like shops are de facto forbidden from using Spanish; people dare not to post a Spanish flag). According to him the very active and vocal movement and local gov't hijacked somewhat the democratic process and thus even an independence vote now would be also done under pressure, and there is a "silent majority" who is unable to resists but doesn't support the separatist movement.
I don't know about that tbh, but what I don't get is this desire to create "ethnic enclaves" (on a larger scale and on different terms of course than some neighborhoods probably most larger cities in most countries already have) in an Europe which is so diverse and open these days. It just doesn't make any sense to me, but I respect whatever other people have to say on this subject.
It's like saying - we're different, we're repressed but we can't stand the majority anyway.... so there.
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Old 24.09.2017, 10:22
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

Nobody is being arrested for wanting independence. There are some two million Catalans who want indepndence, and they are not being arrested. The senior politicians who were arrested were so for promoting an illegal vote, plus other crimes related to this, and repeatedly ignoring the multiple warnings from the courts.

Wanting to be rich is legitimate. Robbing a bank is not. If you rob a bank, don't claim that you were arrested for wanting to be rich.

The problem with this situation is that it is not about ONE vote. Many people say "what's wrong with letting the people vote and have their say? Actually, why have independentists being pushing so hard and so long for a referendum that they knew they would lose? It is not because "it is democratic". It is so because this simpy paves their way. They would lose, but it would be accepted that a referendum (a legal and agreed, binding one) is possible. And six months later they would start asking for a new referendum, because "the situation has changed" or whatever. And they would not get it in six months, but in maybe five years it would have to be repeated, and so on until they win. And with all the brainwashing at schools, TV and pretty much every aspect of everyday life, in 10 or 20 years they would win the referendum. So agreeing to a referendum is not agreeing to one (single) vote to settle the matter; it is agreeing to Catalonia becoming independent sooner or later. I would be perfectly happy with a vote if it were part of the agreement that a new referendum on the topic could not be called again in 100 years.
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Old 24.09.2017, 11:16
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

Why on earth would you deny a democratic vote and tie for 100 years a region that for whatever reason doesn t want to stay in your country? What is yoir gain?
I mean, the goal if you want to stay united should rather be to give reasons to everybody to feel good being together, right? So that the nations that stay together do so because of all their parts' willingness to stay united. I mean...one can vote in Switzerland whether the main street at the village should be paved. Why forbidding for 100 years asking the people if they are fine within a country, when there is evidence that a good chunk is not ok? Voting should be the base to advance socially,like in Switzerland.
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Nobody is being arrested for wanting independence. There are some two million Catalans who want indepndence, and they are not being arrested. The senior politicians who were arrested were so for promoting an illegal vote, plus other crimes related to this, and repeatedly ignoring the multiple warnings from the courts.

Wanting to be rich is legitimate. Robbing a bank is not. If you rob a bank, don't claim that you were arrested for wanting to be rich.

The problem with this situation is that it is not about ONE vote. Many people say "what's wrong with letting the people vote and have their say? Actually, why have independentists being pushing so hard and so long for a referendum that they knew they would lose? It is not because "it is democratic". It is so because this simpy paves their way. They would lose, but it would be accepted that a referendum (a legal and agreed, binding one) is possible. And six months later they would start asking for a new referendum, because "the situation has changed" or whatever. And they would not get it in six months, but in maybe five years it would have to be repeated, and so on until they win. And with all the brainwashing at schools, TV and pretty much every aspect of everyday life, in 10 or 20 years they would win the referendum. So agreeing to a referendum is not agreeing to one (single) vote to settle the matter; it is agreeing to Catalonia becoming independent sooner or later. I would be perfectly happy with a vote if it were part of the agreement that a new referendum on the topic could not be called again in 100 years.
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Old 24.09.2017, 14:53
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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Why on earth would you deny a democratic vote and tie for 100 years a region that for whatever reason doesn t want to stay in your country? What is yoir gain?
I mean, the goal if you want to stay united should rather be to give reasons to everybody to feel good being together, right? So that the nations that stay together do so because of all their parts' willingness to stay united. I mean...one can vote in Switzerland whether the main street at the village should be paved. Why forbidding for 100 years asking the people if they are fine within a country, when there is evidence that a good chunk is not ok? Voting should be the base to advance socially,like in Switzerland.
Hmm, you overestimate the importance of voting. Not that many decades ago, this sort of disputes were solved with the guns. Every piece of land was conquered in a war. Or lost in a war, or as a direct result of a war. You think the human brains are differently wired now?
Not taking any side here, just asking.
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Old 24.09.2017, 14:56
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

Politicians have been arrested, in some cases without a proper warrant. some released with criminal charges. Oh, sure there have been no mass arrests yet. Or is anyone expecting a Balkanization of Spain? I sincerely hope things won’t turn that ugly. But opression exists. Asking for a democratic vote is a criminal charge. Aiding those who do is a criminal charge. Since when asking for democratic votes is a criminal charge in a so-called democracy?

As for referendums. Central government does not allow any kind of referendums to any citizens of Spain - be it Galicians, Euskeras or Asturians. Except for government-issued referendums, that is. Non-government issues are simply ignored or silenced. What we have today in Spain is everything but a true democracy. If you are not government, you cannot ask for a referendum of any kind.
Ditto
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Old 24.09.2017, 15:13
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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I would be perfectly happy with a vote if it were part of the agreement that a new referendum on the topic could not be called again in 100 years.
it's no wonder that Catalonians want out.
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Old 24.09.2017, 15:26
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

I don't even know where to start.

Background maybe: I am from Spain and have lived in 4 Spanish regions, including Catalonia, for 2 years. And in 2 other countries, including Switzerland, obviously (not so obvious for Moont maybe).

This is a problem with a difficult solution. The usual solution in most of the world is not to allow any referendum. People might talk about Scotland, but you can also look at Northern Ireland or what happened in Germany and Italy in the last two years, where the Constitutional Courts from these two democratic countries said that no referendum can be held to call for independence in a region of the country. And we know how France would think about it.

Let's say that Spain want to go the other way, the referendum. OK, let's talk about the implementation. You can blame the Spanish government for not allowing people to vote, but that means that you don't know a tenth of the story. The Spanish government allowed, for instance, a consultation in Catalonia about this topic in 2014. The problem was that, as a simple non binding consultation, only the ones pro-independence turned out. The main issue is that the Spanish government cannot just negotiate with the Catalan government to have this referendum. Well, the main issue is that they don't want to, but even if they wanted, there are laws, that can be changed, of course, that avoid this. But to have this referendum, or to change these laws, you need that 2/3 of the Spanish parlament vote for it (this is the political solution for which the government can be partly responsible) but, most important, it MUST be approved first in referendum by the Spanish people, the sovereign people. Long story short: no binding referendum can be held in Catalonia without the Spanish people approving it first in a referendum.

By the way, according to international law, the right to self-determination and secession is only valid for cases such as colonies or blatant repression, which is obviously not the case in Spain. In the end, if you think small scale, it is normal to think that the guy in the penthouse or with access to the terrace cannot just say: "I refuse to pay the Nebenkosten or to allow you to use my terrace, I become independent", without agreeing to this with the rest of the people sharing the common building/territory.

I find it interesting how people support the Catalan government, who is doing so many ilegal things and blame the Spanish government, who is really in a difficult situation. The Party in the Catalan government is a mix of the right wing bourjois Catalan party and the left wing republican Catalan party. They do not have an electoral program anymore. They do not rule. Their only goal is to have this referendum. For this, they went together to the elections and claimed that, if more than 50% of the people voted for them or for the anticapitalist party (also pro independence) they would work to have the referendum. They had 48% of the votes only, but... who cares? They had the majority in the parlament, so they went ahead with the law of the referendum. This law is illegal because it was not approved by 2/3 of their parlament and because it is against the Spanish Constitution, under which umbrella the Catalan Government is meaningful. In addition to this, it is not ethical because it goes against half of the parlament/population, but they keep claiming that they do all this under people's mandate. Even the Catalan President has told the citizens to harass the town majors in case they did not help to organize the referendum. And they do not even have an idea about what kind of country they want to have. The right wing party says they will have an army, the left wing party says they won't... they refuse to accept that they would be out of the EU the day after they were independent... How can a vote be held on these premises? What kind of country can be created going against the rule of law, against political negotiation, with no international support, ruled by liars and corrupt politicians, confronting your people against your people and with no idea of what country you want to design and separating from your main commercial and cultural partner?

How can this people who act against the law, who lie, who confront half of the Catalan people against the other half, how can they call fascist to a Spanish government for doing nothing or to the police for following the instructions of a Judge, in Barcelona btw, who is just applying the law?? There might be better solutions, but they are not entitled to judge them, considering their behavior.

Why did we reach this point? Catalonia, in Spain, is one of the four richest regions in Spain (with Madrid, the Balearic Islands and the Basque Country) and they achieved this welfare being part of Spain, taking advantage also of many investments done in this region instead of some other parts of Spain where people do not complain so much. They have a lot of autonomy in a quasi-federal state and every 4 years they get better deals thanks to the support of the "right wing bourjois party" to whoever is the party in the government in Spain. For all these deals and greed they are not very much loved in the rest of Spain. But they wanted more in terms of finance. They wanted to be like the Basque Country, where all the tax money stays there. There are other regions who contribute more to the rest of Spain, like Madrid, but Madrid is not going to separate from Spain. Then, the Spanish government, during the crisis, refused to discuss this topic (although they have done it now with the Basques) and, a few years before that, the mini-Catalan constitution was amended (13 out of 238 articles) by the Constitutional Court. Some of the articles were, by the way, in favor of an increased control of the courts in Catalonia. Considering that this is a leading Spanish region in terms of political corruption, no wonder why they wanted to retain more control of the judges.

Thanks to all their autonomy, because they control the Education and the media in the region, the Catalan government has been creating a sense of nationalism, of victims, saying that Spain steals from them, that they were independent in 1714 (all that happened then is that they supported the Austrian candidate to the Spanish throne but the French candidate won), now they say that some people have been arrested for political reasons (NO, they have been arrested for the misuse of funds, census information, etc., like corrupt politicians go to jail not for being politicians but for being corrupt), etc, etc. And they had this consultation in 2014, the plebiscite/elections in 2016 and now they want the referendum. It was all about money but they found ways to convey other reasons to the population.

And here we are. When you see that the left wing Catalan party is complaining about the solidarity to "poorer" people, you know that everything is lost. They don't complain, by the way, when their investments are funded from Europe. Funny, isn't it?

So, in the end, in my opinion, the people in the Catalan government are people with very low moral standards, they could just negotiate a better financial deal now (the Spanish government is open to that) which is what they have always been doing, but that line was crossed long ago and it is anyway not a desirable solution from other's regions perspective. And, if a referendum in Catalonia is to be held, it can be done only after it has been voted by the rest of Spain. And Spain resisted of 40 years of terrorism of people asking for the same, independence for the Basque Country, so the prospects are not good...

Btw, Moont is an example of how hard the Catalan government is trying to make noise and gain some international support. So far they got Assange, Varoufakis and the ex-leader of the political party associated to ETA, Arnaldo Otegi, responsible for some kidnappings in the past and now received like a hero in Barcelona, the city where 21 people were killed by ETA 30 years ago. She might not be part of all the Propaganda team, but there is a clear fit.

Last edited by etsius; 24.09.2017 at 17:49.
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Old 24.09.2017, 17:24
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

Long explanation, but the truth. Thanks
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Old 24.09.2017, 17:30
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

Todays NZZ am Sonntag had a good article about why the referendum is wrong:

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Old 24.09.2017, 18:00
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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Todays NZZ am Sonntag had a good article about why the referendum is wrong:

Even with my wife's glasses on those letters are to small for me
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