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  #101  
Old 24.09.2017, 17:47
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

I have an additional question for those who would ask the Spanish government to negotiate a referendum with the Catalan government to soften the situation. Let's say this happens and this is approved by 2/3 of the Spanish parlament. Now, the only way to change the Spanish Constitution and make it happen legally is to have it approved in another referendum (as I said before) by the sovereign people of Spain.

Let's imagine that the result of this democratic referendum is NO. Then, the sovereign people have spoken and democratically decided that no referendum for secession can be held in any Spanish region. What a Catch-22, huh? Back to square one but with the Catalan people more confronted to the rest of Spain than they are now. And no-one could say that their referendum is democratic anymore because it has been democratically prohibited in a referendum. What then?

Last edited by etsius; 24.09.2017 at 19:11.
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  #102  
Old 24.09.2017, 18:22
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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  #103  
Old 24.09.2017, 18:36
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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I don't even know where to start.

Background maybe: I am from Spain and have lived in 4 Spanish regions, including Catalonia, for 2 years. And in 2 other countries, including Switzerland, obviously (not so obvious for Moont maybe).

This is a problem with a difficult solution. The usual solution in most of the world is not to allow any referendum. People might talk about Scotland, but you can also look at Northern Ireland or what happened in Germany and Italy in the last two years, where the Constitutional Courts from these two democratic countries said that no referendum can be held to call for independence in a region of the country. And we know how France would think about it.

Let's say that Spain want to go the other way, the referendum. OK, let's talk about the implementation. You can blame the Spanish government for not allowing people to vote, but that means that you don't know a tenth of the story. The Spanish government allowed, for instance, a consultation in Catalonia about this topic in 2014. The problem was that, as a simple non binding consultation, only the ones pro-independence turned out. The main issue is that the Spanish government cannot just negotiate with the Catalan government to have this referendum. Well, the main issue is that they don't want to, but even if they wanted, there are laws, that can be changed, of course, that avoid this. But to have this referendum, or to change these laws, you need that 2/3 of the Spanish parlament vote for it (this is the political solution for which the government can be partly responsible) but, most important, it MUST be approved first in referendum by the Spanish people, the sovereign people. Long story short: no binding referendum can be held in Catalonia without the Spanish people approving it first in a referendum.

By the way, according to international law, the right to self-determination and secession is only valid for cases such as colonies or blatant repression, which is obviously not the case in Spain. In the end, if you think small scale, it is normal to think that the guy in the penthouse or with access to the terrace cannot just say: "I refuse to pay the Nebenkosten or to allow you to use my terrace, I become independent", without agreeing to this with the rest of the people sharing the common building/territory.

I find it interesting how people support the Catalan government, who is doing so many ilegal things and blame the Spanish government, who is really in a difficult situation. The Party in the Catalan government is a mix of the right wing bourjois Catalan party and the left wing republican Catalan party. They do not have an electoral program anymore. They do not rule. Their only goal is to have this referendum. For this, they went together to the elections and claimed that, if more than 50% of the people voted for them or for the anticapitalist party (also pro independence) they would work to have the referendum. They had 48% of the votes only, but... who cares? They had the majority in the parlament, so they went ahead with the law of the referendum. This law is illegal because it was not approved by 2/3 of their parlament and because it is against the Spanish Constitution, under which umbrella the Catalan Government is meaningful. In addition to this, it is not ethical because it goes against half of the parlament/population, but they keep claiming that they do all this under people's mandate. Even the Catalan President has told the citizens to harass the town majors in case they did not help to organize the referendum. And they do not even have an idea about what kind of country they want to have. The right wing party says they will have an army, the left wing party says they won't... they refuse to accept that they would be out of the EU the day after they were independent... How can a vote be held on these premises? What kind of country can be created going against the rule of law, against political negotiation, with no international support, ruled by liars and corrupt politicians, confronting your people against your people and with no idea of what country you want to design and separating from your main commercial and cultural partner?

How can this people who act against the law, who lie, who confront half of the Catalan people against the other half, how can they call fascist to a Spanish government for doing nothing or to the police for following the instructions of a Judge, in Barcelona btw, who is just applying the law?? There might be better solutions, but they are not entitled to judge them, considering their behavior.

Why did we reach this point? Catalonia, in Spain, is one of the four richest regions in Spain (with Madrid, the Balearic Islands and the Basque Country) and they achieved this welfare being part of Spain, taking advantage also of many investments done in this region instead of some other parts of Spain where people do not complain so much. They have a lot of autonomy in a quasi-federal state and every 4 years they get better deals thanks to the support of the "right wing bourjois party" to whoever is the party in the government in Spain. For all these deals and greed they are not very much loved in the rest of Spain. But they wanted more in terms of finance. They wanted to be like the Basque Country, where all the tax money stays there. There are other regions who contribute more to the rest of Spain, like Madrid, but Madrid is not going to separate from Spain. Then, the Spanish government, during the crisis, refused to discuss this topic (although they have done it now with the Basques) and, a few years before that, the mini-Catalan constitution was amended (13 out of 238 articles) by the Constitutional Court. Some of the articles were, by the way, in favor of an increased control of the courts in Catalonia. Considering that this is a leading Spanish region in terms of political corruption, no wonder why they wanted to retain more control of the judges.

Thanks to all their autonomy, because they control the Education and the media in the region, the Catalan government has been creating a sense of nationalism, of victims, saying that Spain steals from them, that they were independent in 1714 (all that happened then is that they supported the Austrian candidate to the Spanish throne but the French candidate won), now they say that some people have been arrested for political reasons (NO, they have been arrested for the misuse of funds, census information, etc., like corrupt politicians go to jail not for being politicians but for being corrupt), etc, etc. And they had this consultation in 2014, the plebiscite/elections in 2016 and now they want the referendum. It was all about money but they found ways to convey other reasons to the population.

And here we are. When you see that the left wing Catalan party is complaining about the solidarity to "poorer" people, you know that everything is lost. They don't complain, by the way, when their investments are funded from Europe. Funny, isn't it?

So, in the end, in my opinion, the people in the Catalan government are people with very low moral standards, they could just negotiate a better financial deal now (the Spanish government is open to that) which is what they have always been doing, but that line was crossed long ago and it is anyway not a desirable solution from other's regions perspective. And, if a referendum in Catalonia is to be held, it can be done only after it has been voted by the rest of Spain. And Spain resisted of 40 years of terrorism of people asking for the same, independence for the Basque Country, so the prospects are not good...

Btw, Moont is an example of how hard the Catalan government is trying to make noise and gain some international support. So far they got Assange, Varoufakis and the ex-leader of the political party associated to ETA, Arnaldo Otegi, responsible for some kidnappings in the past and now received like a hero in Barcelona, the city where 21 people were killed by ETA 30 years ago. She might not be part of all the Propaganda team, but there is a clear fit.
Fully agree! , this is the local expression of global populism and neo-nationalism... Nothing else, nothing more, very similar to Brexit btw...

And just by sharing this opinion I am considered a fascist oppressor by the 40-45%? of "democratic" separatists as well as directly ignored and excluded by the public catalan media we all catalan citizens pay.
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  #104  
Old 25.09.2017, 10:54
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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Moont, how did you find this forum?
Does it make you feel good and right if some of the users agree with you?

Funny note: two of my village men, an Italian and a Spaniard, were discussing yesterday about the constitutionality of this referendum. The Italian firmly believed it is unconstitutional, the poor Catalan (I assumed) tried to convince him of the opposite. I don't know how the discussion ended up, the funny part was that each talked to the other in their native language...you couldn't make that up.
I finished my coffee and went home....I'll probably see them again, same place, same hour, talking about the same thing next week.
Catalan is also similar to Romanian, no? I haven't had much exposure to spoken Romanian, but written Romanian has a lot of words that I can understand and also the grammar seems quite similar. Is this correct?
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  #105  
Old 25.09.2017, 11:02
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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Catalan is also similar to Romanian, no? I haven't had much exposure to spoken Romanian, but written Romanian has a lot of words that I can understand and also the grammar seems quite similar. Is this correct?
They are all latin languages.

Tom

Last edited by st2lemans; 25.09.2017 at 11:14.
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  #106  
Old 25.09.2017, 11:05
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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The are all latin languages.

Tom
Sure, but there are also sub-groups within the Latin languages and some are more related than others.
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  #107  
Old 25.09.2017, 11:10
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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Probably just a guy who found this forum by accident. He or she expressed her views in a civilised way, why shouldn't this poster be allowed to say whatever they want.
Besides, we have users posting views from the (almost) extreme right wing philosophy to the (almost) extreme left wing, and many in between.
I don't see any problem with the sudden appearance of these Catalans, words and different opinions shouldn't bother people that much. Especially when they are pretty civil.
I don't disagree at all, except for saying that the guy found this forum by accident. This is systematic approach that I have seen in a couple of forums that where newcomers only come and talk about something they have a vested interest (most likely paid by, and using the appropriate searching/trend tools). In other words, a targeted participation.

It is good and healthy to hear everybody's opinion, absolutely! Just I personally like more genuine participation, like the one coming from 99% of the others that are joining this discussion, even if we disagree with each other, at least none of us have a hidden agenda like these guys.
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  #108  
Old 25.09.2017, 11:20
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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I don't disagree at all, except for saying that the guy found this forum by accident. This is systematic approach that I have seen in a couple of forums that where newcomers only come and talk about something they have a vested interest (most likely paid by, and using the appropriate searching/trend tools). In other words, a targeted participation.

It is good and healthy to hear everybody's opinion, absolutely! Just I personally like more genuine participation, like the one coming from 99% of the others that are joining this discussion, even if we disagree with each other, at least none of us have a hidden agenda like these guys.
f the agenda is hidden, it's not very well hidden.

To assume everybody who seems to have a strong opinion and who argues that opinion well is a mole is a bit too conspiracy theory to me.

What is the value for some hypothetical shady Catalan propaganda group of convincing English speaking expats in Switzerland? Wouldn't it make more sense for them to put that energy into convincing people in Barcelona and Madrid?

Some people are just passionate about certain topics. It doesn't take a conspiracy.
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  #109  
Old 25.09.2017, 13:40
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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f the agenda is hidden, it's not very well hidden.

To assume everybody who seems to have a strong opinion and who argues that opinion well is a mole is a bit too conspiracy theory to me.

What is the value for some hypothetical shady Catalan propaganda group of convincing English speaking expats in Switzerland? Wouldn't it make more sense for them to put that energy into convincing people in Barcelona and Madrid?

Some people are just passionate about certain topics. It doesn't take a conspiracy.
Fair enough. Let's see how long he sticks to the forum.
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  #110  
Old 25.09.2017, 21:47
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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f the agenda is hidden, it's not very well hidden.
.... too conspiracy theory to me....
....hypothetical shady Catalan propaganda.....
It doesn't take a conspiracy.
https://www.google.ch/url?sa=t&sourc...gyW4AA&ampcf=1
As it turned out an undercover Catalan must be in charge of the Spanish cops' logistics for the referendum crackdown


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  #111  
Old 25.09.2017, 22:20
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

A good article in El Pais on the topic.

https://elpais.com/elpais/2017/09/25...16_980655.html
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  #112  
Old 26.09.2017, 09:22
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

Nothing more impartial than a capital paper like El Pais
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  #113  
Old 26.09.2017, 09:42
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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Nothing more impartial than a capital paper like El Pais
I agree that this article has some bias (understatement here), but in general El Pais is one of the more refreshing among the main European newspapers. I always enjoy buying a copy when I'm in Spain.
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  #114  
Old 26.09.2017, 10:32
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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Nothing more impartial than a capital paper like El Pais
Did you actually read it? Could you share with us specifically what is inaccurate?
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  #115  
Old 26.09.2017, 11:00
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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I agree that this article has some bias (understatement here), but in general El Pais is one of the more refreshing among the main European newspapers. I always enjoy buying a copy when I'm in Spain.
I agree, I especially like a few columnists in particular related to sports (Ramon Besa, especially) but it doesn't change the reality that it is a Madrid paper and the capital is not interested in anything related to supporting Catalunya's position. It's a bit like the The Times coming out to support Scotland's attempt to vote on their own referendum
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  #116  
Old 26.09.2017, 12:43
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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Nothing more impartial than a capital paper like El Pais
Are you claiming others present their case in a fair and balanced manner? Including Moont?

Compare old videos to today's, he's clearly reduced his vocabulary and the complexity in his sentences. That doesn't happen randomly.

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  #117  
Old 26.09.2017, 12:45
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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Are you claiming others present their case in a fair and balanced manner? Including Moont?
Merely pointing out the obvious, you aren't going to get an unbiased view from the capital of a fairly corrupt country
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Old 26.09.2017, 13:58
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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Merely pointing out the obvious, you aren't going to get an unbiased view from the capital of a fairly corrupt country
Again: Did you actually read it? Could you share with us specifically what is inaccurate?
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  #119  
Old 26.09.2017, 14:07
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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Merely pointing out the obvious, you aren't going to get an unbiased view from the capital of a fairly corrupt country
http://www.lainformacion.com/policia...989601726.html

In English: Catalonia is the Spanish region with more corrupt people, by far.

I guess then that, following your logic, any newspaper from Madrid is more trustworthy than any news coming from Barcelona.
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Old 26.09.2017, 19:12
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

Dear posters, my apologies if I have incomodated you. Not my intention to offend anyone. I swear nobody pays me a cent to air my opinion. I am no Catalan government nothing. I merely am just an old lady nearing retirement who suffered Franco's dictatorship in the flesh and who thought she was in a democracy now. How wrong I was, to expect mature debate here.

I won't respond to the charges of liar, low moral-minded propaganda freak, etc that someone has so adamantly bestowed upon me. I won't fall in this sick game. Suffice it to say that it is false that we get most of our revenue: Cases AENA, Health service, Education.. I am a secondary education teacher in a public school with over 68% immigrants from all over the world (as in the por parts of same) who naturally speaks more Spanish than Catalan. It's untrue that we refuse Spansih schools - oh but bilingual schools are not acceptable to some extreme right Spanish nationalists who despise minority languages.

BTW, as for corruption. like any other politicos, we have a regrettable share of corrupt persons, but not more than the Spanish. Gurtel, the missing documents proving such or about the civil war disappeared, burned (accidentally??) whatever happened with the Law 57/2007 That recognises and broadens the rights and establishes measures in favour of those who suffered prosecution or violence during the Civil War and the Dictatorship systematically ignored by the PP, together with extradition of war criminals (https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...anco-argentina) - extraditions and trials which never happened? Oh and as for the glorious ranking of the Spanish repression, with the death toll being second to that of Pol Pot's dictatorship at a global level.... Or the arrests and searches carried out without a proper warrant. Or the disrespect of Spanish leaders about EU resolutions and requests. We never threw bombs the ETA way. I resent being equated to Otegi.

I could go on and on, rebutting the ill-willed accusations some vent here but to what end? Like I said elsewhere, I pray let's agree to disagree instead of engaging a cross-fire of bitter accusations that will lead nowhere. I am no propaganda mole. I am no war criminal. I never condoned violence. I am only asking in a civilized manner for a mature debate and compromise for my Autonomy, I never wanted to secede, but sick of such biases as those vented here I say, so you don't want to give us fair treatment? So let us go free then! Or reach a compromise that satisfies both parts. If this is being what I have been accused of, come God and see it, que venga Dios y lo vea.

And now this isn't just about Catalan independence only. It's about freedom of speech. It's about the right to VOTE, whatever the outcome. We would embrace a majority of NO as we would rejoice a majority of Yes. We would as always negotiate in terms of justice and equality, not as a subjugated people. Is this undemocratic? Since when a democratic VOTE where EVERYONE can have their say in a civilized manner is undemocratic?

OMG

I never intended to disrespect anyone, and regret my first gaffe. I ask other posters not to disrespect me like I am doing my best not to disrespect anyone. Not even those who insult me. It isn't that difficult.

And I thank those of you who have shown understanding, respect and help with proper etiquette, which I was ignorant of to my eternal shame, with all my heart. Otherwise I won't bother you anymore and stop overstaying my welcome here. So unless any poster has any specific qüestions to ask me directly if they are interested in my views, I will say no more.

I regret irate debate. I am in for mature, constructionist dialogue.

Live long and prosper.
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