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  #161  
Old 01.10.2017, 14:55
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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You may want to consider reading Noam Chomsky. Or another book about how the world realy is. Essentially it is about the kings making the rules and breaking them if they want as well. This is the world.

I wish you great luck on your journey along the self education route.

Best wishes.


Chomsky's written many books on many subjects, but he's not a messiah and not everyone agrees with him on many issues.

FWIW - in regards to Catalonia, he supports the independence movement:

https://www.rt.com/news/405105-acade...ession-franco/
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  #162  
Old 01.10.2017, 15:50
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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contra-productive and politically unprofessional.
The fundamental yes-sayers will get their scandal in the media, the moderate yes-sayers are not willing to face this kind of confrontation with the police and won't bother, the no-sayers have to fear the police as well as the yes-sayers so they'll stay away too.

And the world will never know, what the majority of the Catalan really want.
What a charade.
Charade? Scandal? I think these words fall quite short to the actual violence we can appreciate at the videos...using violence that way against peaceful citizens has no excuse.
I had no preferences before, but this kind of police repression (in Europe, our times!) is way over the top of what I can endorse, sorry. Mr Rajoy could have solved this many ways, honestly I don't think that after today's events many catalans will be willing to enter into conversations.
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  #163  
Old 01.10.2017, 17:49
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

Best video yet:

https://twitter.com/CatalansForYes/s...85965737078784

Watching this unfold and suddenly the basket case that is Latin America all makes sense.
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  #164  
Old 01.10.2017, 18:06
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

Interesting, this video was perfectly accessible at lunchtime today.
Wonder who deleted the link? Spanish authorities?
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  #165  
Old 01.10.2017, 19:16
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

Poor Catalans, starting a fight when it was obvious they would be going to loose. Now they’re blaming Madrid, gave them too much Don Quixote at school.
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  #166  
Old 01.10.2017, 19:20
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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Poor Catalans, starting a fight when it was obvious they would be going to loose. Now they’re blaming Madrid, gave them too much Don Quixote at school.
Meanwhile in Madrid, people are singing Franco songs and giving Nazi salutes.

https://twitter.com/CataloniaHelp2/s...31859654639616
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  #167  
Old 01.10.2017, 22:02
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

what a disgrace today in Spain.

what we have learned this week is that Iraq can better handle a referendum for independence than a EU country.

A LOL fact: a minority government slams down a democratic referendum.
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  #168  
Old 01.10.2017, 22:25
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

And to the people who keep saying "It's illegal" let's not forget that in 2006 Madrid promised the catalans a referendum only to declare such illegal in 2010.

So yes the Catalans have every reason to feel betrayed by Madrid on this subject.
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  #169  
Old 01.10.2017, 22:43
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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Meanwhile in Madrid, people are singing Franco songs and giving Nazi salutes.

https://twitter.com/CataloniaHelp2/s...31859654639616
I cannot deny the impact of a video, now that this thread looks more like Twitter, but I like to use sources more carefully and, in Spain, there were 9,909 people (0.04%) who voted for the Falange, the far right party, in the last elections, so this can unfortunately be seen these days but it is nonetheless good news that 0.04% is comparatively very low compared with the results in Poland, Austria, Switzerland, France, Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden, Italy, Belgium, UK, Finland, Hungary or Germany.
https://www.economist.com/blogs/grap...daily-chart-18

I am not surprised of what happened today (I would have been one year ago, but not after how events developed since September 6th and 7th). Other images from the disgraceful day today:
- A video of a member of Guardia Civil convincing a man very politely to leave the place with his young kid. https://twitter.com/manumarlasca/sta...11068130299904
- An "indepe" throwing a chair against a policeman who cannot stand up afterwards.
https://twitter.com/europapress/stat...22804367843329
- An image of a guy who was so into his right to vote that he voted 4 times!
https://twitter.com/forocoches/statu...25816364654592
- An image of violence from 2012 (it was the regional police, not the national one) which is being used as an image from today. https://twitter.com/jarcha182/status/914588058187526144
- A ballot box full of ballots before the voting started!
https://twitter.com/rosadiezglez/sta...08432312180737

I would also share other type of images but Loz1983 has done it for me already.

Last edited by etsius; 01.10.2017 at 23:02.
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  #170  
Old 01.10.2017, 22:49
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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And to the people who keep saying "It's illegal" let's not forget that in 2006 Madrid promised the catalans a referendum only to declare such illegal in 2010.
I'm sure the same argument was used in East Germany and Ireland once upon a time.

If today has shown us anything, it's that only one of these two former US Presidents is right:




Last edited by Loz1983; 02.10.2017 at 06:16.
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  #171  
Old 01.10.2017, 22:53
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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And to the people who keep saying "It's illegal" let's not forget that in 2006 Madrid promised the catalans a referendum only to declare such illegal in 2010.

So yes the Catalans have every reason to feel betrayed by Madrid on this subject.
Do you have any source for this? Because... sorry but this is not true. I will quote myself again for those who do not want to read my previous long posts but Spain cannot promise that without previous approval in a referendum where all Spanish citizens can vote.

Having said this, the Spanish PM (Rodríguez Zapatero) promised in 2006, before becoming PM, that he would approve whatever Estatut was approved in the Catalan Parlament. The Estatut is a like a mini-constitution for each of the 17 Spanish regions where it is stated what kind of autonomy they have in terms of education, finance, healthcare, law, etc... I agree on the fact that this was very irresponsible because he should have said that he would negotiate an Estatut, just in case something in it was in prejudice of the other regions. In the end, the PP (in the opposition) brought the case to the Constitutional Court, who decided in 2010 that 14 articles out of 223 were not compliant with the Constitution and, therefore, had to be modified. The other 209 stayed as they were. None of the original or final articles mentioned anything about any referendum.

Last edited by etsius; 01.10.2017 at 23:58.
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  #172  
Old 01.10.2017, 23:15
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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I cannot deny the impact of a video, now that this thread looks more like Twitter, but I like to use sources more carefully and, in Spain, there were 9,909 people (0.04%) who voted for the Falange, the far right party, in the last elections, so this can unfortunately be seen these days but it is nonetheless good news that 0.04% is comparatively very low compared with the results in Poland, Austria, Switzerland, France, Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden, Italy, Belgium, UK, Finland, Hungary or Germany.
https://www.economist.com/blogs/grap...daily-chart-18

I am not surprised of what happened today (I would have been one year ago, but not after how events developed since September 6th and 7th). Other images from the disgraceful day today:
- A video of a member of Guardia Civil convincing a man very politely to leave the place with his young kid. https://twitter.com/manumarlasca/sta...11068130299904
- An "indepe" throwing a chair against a policeman who cannot stand up afterwards.
https://twitter.com/europapress/stat...22804367843329
- An image of a guy who was so into his right to vote that he voted 4 times!
https://twitter.com/forocoches/statu...25816364654592
- An image of violence from 2012 (it was the regional police, not the national one) which is being used as an image from today. https://twitter.com/jarcha182/status/914588058187526144
- A ballot box full of ballots before the voting started!
https://twitter.com/rosadiezglez/sta...08432312180737

I would also share other type of images but Loz1983 has done it for me already.
What? It is ridiculous to try to compare a guy throwing a chair with what the policemen did today.

I am surprised with today's events. What is this use of violence good for? Now the positions seem quite irreconcilable. I fear this is not the end and (unless intervention from Europe, Mrs Merkel, the UN...dunno who) this can turn out very very ugly.
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  #173  
Old 01.10.2017, 23:26
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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What? It is ridiculous to try to compare a guy throwing a chair with what the policemen did today.

I am surprised with today's events. What is this use of violence good for? Now the positions seem quite irreconcilable. I fear this is not the end and (unless intervention from Europe, Mrs Merkel, the UN...dunno who) this can turn out very very ugly.
Where did I say I am comparing anything? I replied to a post showing a few people singing far right songs in Madrid. As if this meant something. My reply intended to show how this kind of videos can mean nothing when you take these isolated shots of what's really going on. Well, the video with the guy convincing the father with the kid to leave was to show a silver lining.

It is clearly a shameful and disgraceful day, but I am not surprised about this. By reading the news in Spain everyday it was foreseeable that this clash was going to happen and should have been avoided. And, as you say, this is not the end, let's hope that the politicians get together and talk or that somebody has a plan, but after everything we've gone through in the last month I am not optimistic and I really don't know what will happen after today.

Last edited by etsius; 01.10.2017 at 23:49.
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  #174  
Old 02.10.2017, 06:47
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Government in Spain-Catalonia

Reminded of the Nazis in Germany when they put down any opposition with violence. We don't want this in Europe. Get rid of this government in Spain. They are fascist!
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  #175  
Old 02.10.2017, 07:18
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

General strike called for Tuesday throughout Catalunya and protests will continue today at lunch time

Proud of how Catalans conducted themselves yesterday, I expected nothing less from them just as I expected nothing less than the response of the Spanish govt


The tipping point was clearly the events of yesterday, there is no going back to the Spain as most have known it - Visca Catalunya!
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  #176  
Old 02.10.2017, 08:04
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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Nice to know your opinion on democracy.
Was it not Churchill who once said: "The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter."
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  #177  
Old 02.10.2017, 08:41
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Re: Government in Spain-Catalonia

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We don't want this in Europe.
Europe is just reverting to type. The western portion has enjoyed a nice long holiday, but that will soon be over. I'm just glad to be living in Switzerland with family in England: if any two countries are able to ride out the coming storm it's these.

Looks like Brexit wasn't such a bad idea after all, eh?
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  #178  
Old 02.10.2017, 09:15
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

Can't help thinking what a mistake the Spanish government did...they should have known better. What just happened is so convenient for the Catalan separatists, now the great manipulation will be stronger than ever, images with blood and elderly will provoke the general outrage they so much needed.
Spain, such an immature baby, politically. And you just created the precedent, sort of. Europe had a nice, long period of peace and prosperity, why should we cherish that isn't it. I'm very dissapointed, but for other reasons than some people here.
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  #179  
Old 02.10.2017, 09:27
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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I cannot deny the impact of a video, now that this thread looks more like Twitter, but I like to use sources more carefully and, in Spain, there were 9,909 people (0.04%) who voted for the Falange, the far right party, in the last elections, so this can unfortunately be seen these days but it is nonetheless good news that 0.04% is comparatively very low compared with the results in Poland, Austria, Switzerland, France, Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden, Italy, Belgium, UK, Finland, Hungary or Germany.
https://www.economist.com/blogs/grap...daily-chart-18
Please, do understand that Polish right is completely not Germany's nationalist AFD, who is extolling Wehrmacht in WWII. You cannot at all equal a conservative party of a country which didn't create gas chambers with a reactionary party of a country which did, because such a party in Germany has to come to terms with their past - and either it rejects it, or remains silent, or, well, white-washes it, as in case of a leader of AFD. And now like-thinkers in other parties might rear their ugly head and say what what unthinkable before.
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  #180  
Old 02.10.2017, 09:29
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Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

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...now the great manipulation will be stronger than ever, images with blood and elderly will provoke the general outrage they so much needed....
Have you seen so many images?
Looking carefully, many are about that guy fighting with robocopo, he has a purple/crimson colour hoodie jumper.
Since it's taken from numerous angle, it gives the impression that there's numerous battles while in fact, all these pictures are about a very single quick event!

What do you expect, there are millions of idiots spoon fed by media, everybody is happy with the situation, why would it ever change?
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