Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Off-Topic > Off-Topic > International affairs/politics  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 15.09.2017, 17:53
Medea Fleecestealer's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 21,934
Groaned at 400 Times in 308 Posts
Thanked 16,886 Times in 9,522 Posts
Medea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond repute
Catalan independence referendum vote

Anyone else think this may turn ugly?

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41284764
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 15.09.2017, 18:40
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 8,170
Groaned at 293 Times in 222 Posts
Thanked 18,599 Times in 6,498 Posts
k_and_e has a reputation beyond reputek_and_e has a reputation beyond reputek_and_e has a reputation beyond reputek_and_e has a reputation beyond reputek_and_e has a reputation beyond reputek_and_e has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

Quote:
View Post
Anyone else think this may turn ugly?

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41284764
yes, the EU doesn't seem to like things like free will and democracy.

Reply With Quote
The following 6 users would like to thank k_and_e for this useful post:
  #3  
Old 15.09.2017, 19:11
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: CH
Posts: 10,409
Groaned at 342 Times in 279 Posts
Thanked 15,183 Times in 7,793 Posts
greenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

Quote:
View Post
yes, the EU doesn't seem to like things like free will and democracy.
The EU? Most of the Spanish people are against it, except for the Catalans of course.

Plus the article is stating exactly that - the Spanish government is taking some measures not EU. Before being an European "problem" is a Spanish one. In fact, I bet EU would like a bit of divide et impera.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank greenmount for this useful post:
  #4  
Old 15.09.2017, 19:19
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

Madrid reacts how it always has reacted towards Catalonia, repression.
Reply With Quote
The following 5 users would like to thank for this useful post:
This user groans at for this post:
  #5  
Old 15.09.2017, 21:28
grumpygrapefruit's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: NL & sometimes ZH
Posts: 6,365
Groaned at 39 Times in 38 Posts
Thanked 17,288 Times in 4,455 Posts
grumpygrapefruit has a reputation beyond reputegrumpygrapefruit has a reputation beyond reputegrumpygrapefruit has a reputation beyond reputegrumpygrapefruit has a reputation beyond reputegrumpygrapefruit has a reputation beyond reputegrumpygrapefruit has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

Quote:
View Post
The EU? Most of the Spanish people are against it, except for the Catalans of course.

Plus the article is stating exactly that - the Spanish government is taking some measures not EU. Before being an European "problem" is a Spanish one. In fact, I bet EU would like a bit of divide et impera.
Do you have a source for that? Because most of the Spaniards I know (inc most of my friends in Madrid) are pro EU
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 15.09.2017, 22:00
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: CH
Posts: 10,409
Groaned at 342 Times in 279 Posts
Thanked 15,183 Times in 7,793 Posts
greenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

Quote:
View Post
Do you have a source for that? Because most of the Spaniards I know (inc most of my friends in Madrid) are pro EU
I think you took it out of the context, it was a reply to someone else. I meant the rest of the spaniards (at least those that I know strongly believe this) are against the independence of Catalonia...this has nothing to do with EU for the moment. It was the Spanish government that reacted against the referendum, not EU.

I think it's a Spanish problem and don't see how EU can interfere in this matter. Well, at least for the moment.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank greenmount for this useful post:
  #7  
Old 20.09.2017, 11:21
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

Quote:
View Post
Anyone else think this may turn ugly?

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41284764
Oh yes, it's starting to turn ugly.

Spain police raid Catalonia government offices, arrest junior minister
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank for this useful post:
  #8  
Old 20.09.2017, 11:46
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Zurich
Posts: 90
Groaned at 1 Time in 1 Post
Thanked 32 Times in 19 Posts
hof86 has earned some respecthof86 has earned some respect
Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

Quote:
View Post
The EU? Most of the Spanish people are against it, except for the Catalans of course.

Plus the article is stating exactly that - the Spanish government is taking some measures not EU. Before being an European "problem" is a Spanish one. In fact, I bet EU would like a bit of divide et impera.
Well, the majority of the Spanish are actually against the referendum (sorry, it's in Spanish)

http://www.elmundo.es/espana/2017/09...e518b461f.html

And doing a referendum which is basically illegal / has no legitimacy leads nowhere...

https://www.ft.com/content/eb770a58-...2-cde3f882dd7b

That being said, the outcome is complicated. The Spanish government strategy was basically to do nothing, hoping that these guys will calm down and forget about that...which didn't happen, and here we are now.

Side note: good that I'm going to Barcelona next weekend
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank hof86 for this useful post:
This user groans at hof86 for this post:
  #9  
Old 20.09.2017, 13:13
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: zurich
Posts: 54
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 31 Times in 18 Posts
blueturtle has no particular reputation at present
Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

Quote:
View Post
Anyone else think this may turn ugly?

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41284764
I spoke to many Catalans during my trips last years. Though not every one wants independence, they all are dissatisfied by the fact that Spain gets so much revenue from the region but spends little there.

Before it gets ugly (The report says "The separatists have promised to declare independence within days if, as expected, the Yes vote prevails at the referendum."), Spain should start negotiating and give more autonomy to the region and spend more money on the local schools etc.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank blueturtle for this useful post:
  #10  
Old 20.09.2017, 13:33
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

Arrested for wanting independence. Unbelievable.

Spain need to be careful how they deal with this, if the crackdown is too strong then there'll be a backlash.

The UK should be proud for allowing the Scottish referendum vote to go ahead. Referendums and self determination are the way forward.
Reply With Quote
The following 5 users would like to thank for this useful post:
  #11  
Old 20.09.2017, 13:42
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

Quote:
View Post
Arrested for wanting independence. Unbelievable.

Spain need to be careful how they deal with this, if the crackdown is too strong then there'll be a backlash.

The UK should be proud for allowing the Scottish referendum vote to go ahead. Referendums and self determination are the way forward.
Historically Madrid only knows one way to deal with Catalan people who do not act like Madrid wants them to act, I think to many Catalan people have forgotten about this due to the great economical years in the region. Some reminders about the actual situation and the past might give the independence camp a support boost.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank for this useful post:
  #12  
Old 20.09.2017, 13:51
gaburko's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: BL
Posts: 1,003
Groaned at 158 Times in 106 Posts
Thanked 2,654 Times in 983 Posts
gaburko has a reputation beyond reputegaburko has a reputation beyond reputegaburko has a reputation beyond reputegaburko has a reputation beyond reputegaburko has a reputation beyond reputegaburko has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

Well, after having lived in both Barcelona and Madrid for some time I have always felt there's tension, but it will never get to the point of actual conflict. I was wrong. What Madrid did is just stupid. It might be lawful, but stupid as it only feeds on the fear of the Catalans that Madrid is oppressive. I would imagine that the % of Catalans that support separation has only increased now. Lets see...
Reply With Quote
The following 6 users would like to thank gaburko for this useful post:
  #13  
Old 20.09.2017, 13:53
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

*scenes*

Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank for this useful post:
  #14  
Old 20.09.2017, 14:01
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Zurich
Posts: 982
Groaned at 249 Times in 178 Posts
Thanked 2,158 Times in 997 Posts
J2488 has a reputation beyond reputeJ2488 has a reputation beyond reputeJ2488 has a reputation beyond reputeJ2488 has a reputation beyond reputeJ2488 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

Quote:
View Post
Arrested for wanting independence. Unbelievable.

Spain need to be careful how they deal with this, if the crackdown is too strong then there'll be a backlash.

The UK should be proud for allowing the Scottish referendum vote to go ahead. Referendums and self determination are the way forward.

Hardly.


the scots referendum was a populist-pleasing measure that only got traction because westminster thought it was never going to actually happen.


Consider that the week before the referendum, the first poll came out suggesting Yes would win. Within hours, all the major parties stopped fighting with each other, and sent top people to Scotland to try and swing back. It worked, and Scotland stayed, but for a while there were soiled underpants in westminster because the possibility of the UK breaking up. No party wanted to be involved in that.


It was a gamble that came very, very close to backfiring.


Had Scotland chosen to go independant, the UK would have been up a certain proverbial creek with no reliable means of propulsion.


Since Westminster got so heavily involved, you cant call it a truly impartial referendum.


You could only call it fair and honest if westminster had committed to support whichever side won, and left it at that.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank J2488 for this useful post:
  #15  
Old 20.09.2017, 14:02
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Zurich
Posts: 982
Groaned at 249 Times in 178 Posts
Thanked 2,158 Times in 997 Posts
J2488 has a reputation beyond reputeJ2488 has a reputation beyond reputeJ2488 has a reputation beyond reputeJ2488 has a reputation beyond reputeJ2488 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

Quote:
View Post
Referendums and self determination are the way forward.
Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups...
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank J2488 for this useful post:
The following 2 users groan at J2488 for this post:
  #16  
Old 20.09.2017, 14:08
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

Quote:
View Post
Hardly.


the scots referendum was a populist-pleasing measure that only got traction because westminster thought it was never going to actually happen.


Consider that the week before the referendum, the first poll came out suggesting Yes would win. Within hours, all the major parties stopped fighting with each other, and sent top people to Scotland to try and swing back. It worked, and Scotland stayed, but for a while there were soiled underpants in westminster because the possibility of the UK breaking up. No party wanted to be involved in that.


It was a gamble that came very, very close to backfiring.


Had Scotland chosen to go independant, the UK would have been up a certain proverbial creek with no reliable means of propulsion.


Since Westminster got so heavily involved, you cant call it a truly impartial referendum.


You could only call it fair and honest if westminster had committed to support whichever side won, and left it at that.
This is just your opinion. International observers found little issue with the way the referendum campaign was held and voting process was carried out.

The point is that the referendum was held in the first place, and its result would have been respected whatever the outcome. This is a good thing. Catalonia should also have the chance to vote.

Quote:
View Post
Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups...
Nice to know your opinion on democracy.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank for this useful post:
  #17  
Old 20.09.2017, 14:23
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Zurich
Posts: 982
Groaned at 249 Times in 178 Posts
Thanked 2,158 Times in 997 Posts
J2488 has a reputation beyond reputeJ2488 has a reputation beyond reputeJ2488 has a reputation beyond reputeJ2488 has a reputation beyond reputeJ2488 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

Quote:
View Post
This is just your opinion. International observers found little issue with the way the referendum campaign was held and voting process was carried out.

The point is that the referendum was held in the first place, and its result would have been respected whatever the outcome. This is a good thing. Catalonia should also have the chance to vote.



Nice to know your opinion on democracy.

International observers were looking at the way the results were colelcted and whether the end result reflected the voting behaviour. Nobody was evaluating the impartiality of the government beforehand.


And no, you cant really say that the referendum result would have been honoured, because the government was so vociferously against it, and there is no gaurantee they would have accepted the initial result.


Democracy is a terrible system, that gives the ignorant the same contribution to society's direction as the wise.


Unfortunately for us, there is no better system that could be implemented.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank J2488 for this useful post:
  #18  
Old 20.09.2017, 14:46
Treverus's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Luxembourg
Posts: 11,929
Groaned at 303 Times in 259 Posts
Thanked 22,588 Times in 8,185 Posts
Treverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

Quote:
View Post
yes, the EU doesn't seem to like things like free will and democracy.
The trick with democracy is to decide how far you draw the circle who can vote and who not in a referendum. If every province of every country can at all times decide to be independent do you end up with a mess. If you'd make a democratic vote in all of Spain on the topic will Catalonia never be independent. You have similar movements (some more serious, some less) in most EU countries in some form or another, from Belgium to Italy.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Treverus for this useful post:
  #19  
Old 20.09.2017, 15:42
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Steinach SG
Posts: 8,560
Groaned at 417 Times in 313 Posts
Thanked 11,199 Times in 5,881 Posts
Urs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

Quote:
View Post
This is just your opinion. International observers found little issue with the way the referendum campaign was held and voting process was carried out.

The point is that the referendum was held in the first place, and its result would have been respected whatever the outcome. This is a good thing. Catalonia should also have the chance to vote.

Nice to know your opinion on democracy.
The Catalans had their say 40 years ago. I may be mistaken but I think the Scots never did after the unification, this is a crucial difference.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Urs Max for this useful post:
  #20  
Old 20.09.2017, 16:24
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Catalan independence referendum vote

Quote:
View Post
And no, you cant really say that the referendum result would have been honoured, because the government was so vociferously against it, and there is no gaurantee they would have accepted the initial result.
If only there'd been another British referendum recently by which we could test your theory...
Reply With Quote
The following 5 users would like to thank for this useful post:
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Scottish independence referendum number 2, Indyref2 Sbrinz International affairs/politics 125 13.09.2019 14:55
EU Referendum - How did you vote? (Anonymous) Blueangel International affairs/politics 15 24.06.2016 16:03
UK expats -- Register to vote in the EU referendum Pachyderm International affairs/politics 1 10.05.2016 08:50
UK Expats Right to Vote in the EU Referendum MikeMe Other/general 14 28.04.2016 18:13
Catalan referendum ratbag International affairs/politics 75 10.11.2015 05:53


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 06:27.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0