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  #241  
Old 23.01.2018, 13:03
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

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In most Western countries, there already is, it's just called "Social Welfare". It would be great to see something like that in Africa and the Middle East. I agree, it would change the world for the better. Is anyone working on that?
UBI isn't welfare. It opens up a whole range of opportunities for everyone. It would do away with welfare. The topic is very much still in consideration and gaining traction as a solution to the rise of the Bots.

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What is a "Dreamer"? From what the right-wings tell me, they are illegal migrants. From what liberals tell me, they are young bright, young, dynamic people who want to change the world. If both are true, then wouldn't it be best if they returned to their home countries and used their brilliant minds to change the world THERE where it is truly needed?
Best for whom? Where would a Secondo here go? At what cost to them, their family, their colleagues, their society? There's a similar discussion thread somewhere on this Forum...


Last edited by Uncle Max; 23.01.2018 at 13:21.
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  #242  
Old 23.01.2018, 13:17
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

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Every place has pros and cons. I just think I have more freedom "here in the west" than what I would have in "other places in the east".
You have a Western culture, they have their culture. Europe is attractive as a Pull factor for sure, but there's also a heavy Push factor driving people away from their lands. Refugee camps are full of people who wish to just go home, but can't. Hang out in indefinite squalor in Amman / Beirut / Cairo or make the break for Stockholm?

I like Switzerland as it allows me to do whatever I want, live however I please - as long as I follow the rules - but I'm not culturally so far removed from the Swiss. The Ethiopians I know appreciate the chance to live here, but they all lament the exile.
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  #243  
Old 23.01.2018, 13:53
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

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I'll leave it to you to pick specific countries, I'll just provide a few bullet points:
  • Societies where a human's life is worth nothing and killing someone just to "defend your honor" is typical habit;
  • Societies where your parents decide who you have to marry;
  • Societies where you cannot live with a person of the same sex;
  • Societies where a woman has to walk one meter behing her husband or she'll get beated or worse;
  • Societies where a woman is not allowed to do certain jobs for no apparent reason;

My 2 cents.
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Mr Gandhi, what do you think of Western civilisation? etc. etc.
Oddly enough, my first thought was also India.

There they were believing they are the world's oldest civilisation but now they are not even classed as civilised.
Who knew
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  #244  
Old 23.01.2018, 13:54
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

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You have a Western culture, they have their culture. Europe is attractive as a Pull factor for sure, but there's also a heavy Push factor driving people away from their lands. Refugee camps are full of people who wish to just go home, but can't. Hang out in indefinite squalor in Amman / Beirut / Cairo or make the break for Stockholm?

I like Switzerland as it allows me to do whatever I want, live however I please - as long as I follow the rules - but I'm not culturally so far removed from the Swiss. The Ethiopians I know appreciate the chance to live here, but they all lament the exile.
Enjoy Switzerland while you can, the populist SVP are already the largest political party
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  #245  
Old 23.01.2018, 14:05
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

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The Ethiopians I know appreciate the chance to live here, but they all lament the exile.
...and they don't come together to improve their native country because...?
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  #246  
Old 23.01.2018, 14:15
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

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...and they don't come together to improve their native country because...?
You mean politically organise themselves? I guess they're too busy getting up at 04:30 in their one room, neon-lit two-person accomodation to get the 05:10 bus to do the cleaning of the corporate offices, where they must shake their head at the luxury.

Or they're gay and can't return.

Or their Dad was a bad hombre and their family name is mud.

Or their kid is in a school and things are peaceful here.

Spin a bottle, take a guess.

I'm certain they're not here to develop criminal links and subvert white Christian women. They'd love to pay more tax, if they could.
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  #247  
Old 23.01.2018, 14:23
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

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...and they don't come together to improve their native country because...?
There are many projects in Switzerland to improve Ethiopia.
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  #248  
Old 23.01.2018, 14:28
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

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Two bald guys arguing over a comb
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Legality doesn't matter, your own choice of words demonstrates this:
There are legal immigrants and illegal ones, but both are covered by the "immigrant" umbrella.

If immigrants were by definition legal their legal status wouldn't need to be mentioned, "legal immigrant" would be a pleonasm and "illegal immigrant" a self-contradiction.
Baldness epidemic
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  #249  
Old 23.01.2018, 14:31
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

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Does it benefit society to uproot Dreamers?
I don't see how it would.
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Secondos in Switzerland have a similar dilemma: are they or aren't they Swiss? If you believe in the concept of Volk, then maybe there's a point to be made, but if Society is to have any meaning beyond empty Nationalism then appreciating a Secondos place has to carry some weight.
However they Secondos are here legally. I'm not saying their emotional position is easy but their legal one is. Whether they naturalise or not is their choice, and choices have consequences.
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Baldness epidemic
Fake news
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  #250  
Old 23.01.2018, 14:47
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

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However they Secondos are here legally. I'm not saying their emotional position is easy but their legal one is. Whether they naturalise or not is their choice, and choices have consequences.
I'd hope a society is greater than the sum of the rules written to govern it.
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  #251  
Old 23.01.2018, 15:00
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

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I'd hope a society is greater than the sum of the rules written to govern it.
You compared them to the dreamers. I don't think the two are comparable.
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  #252  
Old 23.01.2018, 15:10
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

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You compared them to the dreamers. I don't think the two are comparable.
I can see it from the point of view that they are both foreigners in the only country they know. The difference is that the secondos are allowed to stay indefinitely but the Dreamers are in danger of being kicked out.

Neither have paperwork securing them to their adopted homeland. Neither have voting rights.
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  #253  
Old 23.01.2018, 15:44
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

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Oddly enough, my first thought was also India.

There they were believing they are the world's oldest civilisation but now they are not even classed as civilised.
Who knew
They are civilised, but I believe there is some room for improvement, isn't it?

And, to be clear, this also applies to our beautiful western society
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  #254  
Old 23.01.2018, 15:51
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

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They are civilised, but I believe there is some room for improvement, isn't it?
Civilized, not civilized, who's to say? Maybe "alternative lifestyle" is a better phrase?

...in any case, what is the problem there in Africa and the Middle East? Why aren't they able to improve the living standards? Why don't they come together there and find a way to improve, rather than all getting in a boat and coming to the EU?
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  #255  
Old 23.01.2018, 15:58
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

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...in any case, what is the problem there in Africa and the Middle East? Why aren't they able to improve the living standards? Why don't they come together there and find a way to improve, rather than all getting in a boat and coming to the EU?
Maybe that's the whole issue. Among people fleeing to Europe might be a large number of dissatisfied countrymen who tried to change things and ended up having to flee for their lives because of it.

Places with dictator-style leadership don't take kindly to do-gooders trying to improve life for themselves, their families and their fellow citizens. Never mind voicing opposition type views.
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  #256  
Old 23.01.2018, 16:09
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

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I can see it from the point of view that they are both foreigners in the only country they know. The difference is that the secondos are allowed to stay indefinitely but the Dreamers are in danger of being kicked out.

Neither have paperwork securing them to their adopted homeland. Neither have voting rights.
That's the secondo's choice and another reason the two simply don't compare. Easy or not, choices and decisions have consequences, the only one the secondos got to blame for them is themselves. It may be a tedious process but naturalisation for them should be close to trivial.
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  #257  
Old 23.01.2018, 16:14
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

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That's the secondo's choice and another reason the two simply don't compare. Easy or not, choices and decisions have consequences, the only one the secondos got to blame for them is themselves.
But surely you can see then that the dreamers have a very similar set of circumstances to secondos but a much less secure future and not as many rights.

Whether secondos decide to exercise their right to naturalise is irrelevant in this case. They simply benefit from a much more secure deal, not to mention the luxury of choice.
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  #258  
Old 23.01.2018, 16:21
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

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Civilized, not civilized, who's to say? Maybe "alternative lifestyle" is a better phrase?

...in any case, what is the problem there in Africa and the Middle East? Why aren't they able to improve the living standards? Why don't they come together there and find a way to improve, rather than all getting in a boat and coming to the EU?


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That's the secondo's choice and another reason the two simply don't compare. Easy or not, choices and decisions have consequences, the only one the secondos got to blame for them is themselves. It may be a tedious process but naturalisation for them should be close to trivial.
Ok, we're in two bald fellas territory here. In a strictly legal perspective, you win the internet. Yes, there is a difference. Have a comb.
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  #259  
Old 23.01.2018, 16:22
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

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Maybe that's the whole issue. Among people fleeing to Europe might be a large number of dissatisfied countrymen who tried to change things and ended up having to flee for their lives because of it.

Places with dictator-style leadership don't take kindly to do-gooders trying to improve life for themselves, their families and their fellow citizens. Never mind voicing opposition type views.
There's probably more economic migrants than revolutionaries, but it's just my guess.
But you are saying if we can take out a dictator, like Sadam Hussain or Col.Kadaffi, ...or if people could rise up and overthrow a dictator like in Egypt, then the people could take their country back and prosper?
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  #260  
Old 23.01.2018, 17:06
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

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There's probably more economic migrants than revolutionaries, but it's just my guess.
Most refugees are in no way revolutionaries, but the exact opposite: They are not willing to pick up a gun and fight for their lives. And we have decided a long time ago at some point where it wasn't black people and Muslims but fellow Europeans who were refugees that it's ok to not decide to go and fight your countries dictator and that it is ok to go abroad and search for refuge as long as you are in danger back home. That does not mean that anyone who is not a revolutionary is indeed an economic migrant. The vast majority of legal refugees are neither.

P.S: You picked your examples with a convenient bias. How about those countries where the strongmen have our nations support? Turkey just started a war and we are about to forget the people who just spend 3 years fighting IS and let them get killed by Erdogans army. I am pretty sure that some Kurdish fighters curse the day they decided to fight as you'd want them to and wish they had taken the trip to Europe instead... life isn't that simple.
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