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  #261  
Old 23.01.2018, 18:17
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

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There's probably more economic migrants than revolutionaries, but it's just my guess.
But you are saying if we can take out a dictator, like Sadam Hussain or Col.Kadaffi, ...or if people could rise up and overthrow a dictator like in Egypt, then the people could take their country back and prosper?
Not really what I meant - you belong to a village or town or tribe where a group of people are getting restless against the government or whatever fist is holding onto power and you are automatically swept up in whatever revenge they feel like exacting to send a message.

I am sure many are indeed economic migrants to varying degrees as well but that's not the only category of migrant, is it?

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A legal resident, as long as he otherwise stays within the limits of the law, can do whatever she pleases without fear, she enjoys full protection.

An illegal resident OTOH needs to fear detection at every corner, whenever she enters an official building, whenever it sees police ahead. They're bound to be exploited by their employers because they know they can't call on the authorities. Many benefits are simply not available, unemployment benefits for example. What do you think happens, for how long would they remain free if, as a victim, they reported a crime?

No, the two absolutely don't compare.
You know that Dreamers aren't illegal, don't you?

Development
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I don't think they need to be looking over their shoulders just yet.

Last edited by Sandgrounder; 23.01.2018 at 18:27. Reason: EDIT - don't know what happened to Urs Max post?
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  #262  
Old 23.01.2018, 19:01
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

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I can see it from the point of view that they are both foreigners in the only country they know. The difference is that the secondos are allowed to stay indefinitely but the Dreamers are in danger of being kicked out.

Neither have paperwork securing them to their adopted homeland. Neither have voting rights.
At the end of the day, nobody's rights are so secure that they can't be overthrown.

The world is full of conflicts involving people who have been living in the same place for generations suddenly being forced out because somebody decided they aren't welcome there any more.

I think its better to invest one's energy into avoiding conflicts in the first place rather than fanning the flames of discord and then lamenting when somebody gets hurt.

One part of that is avoiding paralell societies, and resisting blaming certain groups for broader problems.
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  #263  
Old 23.01.2018, 19:29
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

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Not really what I meant - you belong to a village or town or tribe where a group of people are getting restless against the government or whatever fist is holding onto power and you are automatically swept up in whatever revenge they feel like exacting to send a message.

I am sure many are indeed economic migrants to varying degrees as well but that's not the only category of migrant, is it?



You know that Dreamers aren't illegal, don't you?

Development
Relief
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Alien
Minors Act

I don't think they need to be looking over their shoulders just yet.
They are undocumented. Under DACA their deportation is deferred for two years. That doesn't make them legal residents, it just means they're not prosecuted and deported (plus other stuff, like ability to get a work permit). Since renewals have been stopped by Trump, roughly 4% former dreamers become proesecutable again each month.

That's why it's called "Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals". Deportation is just postponed, not voided.
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  #264  
Old 23.01.2018, 21:15
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

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"absolutely NOT what those Wirtschaftsflüchtlinge (economy refugees) from African or Middle Eastern countries are."

Over 15,000 U.S. doctors are from [Trump] banned Muslim countries.

Source

9,000 of these doctors are from Iran, 3,500 from Syria and more than 1,500 from Iraq, maybe these countries are not in the Middle East; what do I know!

There are over 78,000 people born in South Africa that currently live in the United States, all on social benefits you believe?

There is a severe brain drain on the economies of African countries due to many skilled hard working Africans leaving Africa to seek their economic fortunes in the US mainly and elsewhere. Hopefully if Trump succeeds in restricting such immigrants then Europe will benefit.

According to the 2000 US Census, the rate of college diploma acquisition by Nigerian born African/Americans is at 58.6%.
You're comparing the US (who always had less/none "social benefits" anyway, especially for people going there illegally, and are thus much less attractive to those who don't want to work, on top) - on almost 20 year old statistics - with Europe?

May I ask, are you in charge of the statistics department of the Social Democratic party by any chance?
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  #265  
Old 23.01.2018, 21:26
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

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You're comparing the US (who always had less/none "social benefits" anyway, especially for people going there illegally, and are thus much less attractive to those who don't want to work, on top) - on almost 20 year old statistics - with Europe?

May I ask, are you in charge of the statistics department of the Social Democratic party by any chance?
Do feel free to quote more recent statistics if you can find them
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  #266  
Old 23.01.2018, 21:37
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

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They are undocumented. Under DACA their deportation is deferred for two years. That doesn't make them legal residents, it just means they're not prosecuted and deported (plus other stuff, like ability to get a work permit). Since renewals have been stopped by Trump, roughly 4% former dreamers become proesecutable again each month.

That's why it's called "Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals". Deportation is just postponed, not voided.
Correct. Dreamers are not secondos born in the USA. They were brought to the USA illegally as children and have either overstayed hiding in the shadows or have been allowed to stay.

IMO any Dreamer solution needs to have long-term vision. Reagan signed legislation in the 80s that helped a few million illegals gain citizenship. Many of those that are illegally in the U.S. now came after that, hoping there would be another amnesty bill.
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  #267  
Old 23.01.2018, 22:18
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

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There's probably more economic migrants than revolutionaries, but it's just my guess.
But you are saying if we can take out a dictator, like Sadam Hussain or Col.Kadaffi, ...or if people could rise up and overthrow a dictator like in Egypt, then the people could take their country back and prosper?
Opportune you mention Egypt!

Retired General Sami Anan announced he would run against Egyptian President Sisi in the next election in March. Anan was a former member of Egypt’s supreme military council for armed forces (Scaf),

Now Egyptian authorities have arrested him plus 30 members of his campaign were also arrested as well as some of their family members. It’s not known where any of them are being held.”
They also denied him permission to run in presidential elections in March.

Do feel free to ask us again "Why don't they come together there and find a way to improve, rather than all getting in a boat and coming to the EU?"

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  #268  
Old 24.01.2018, 10:22
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

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Correct. Dreamers are not secondos born in the USA. They were brought to the USA illegally as children and have either overstayed hiding in the shadows or have been allowed to stay.

IMO any Dreamer solution needs to have long-term vision. Reagan signed legislation in the 80s that helped a few million illegals gain citizenship. Many of those that are illegally in the U.S. now came after that, hoping there would be another amnesty bill.
We seem to be drifting away from Sweden?

Anyway to pull on the oars in the wrong direction! It is becoming clear that Trump's aim in stopping DACA was to provide a lever for obtaining funding for his wall. Clever but a terribly cynical way to treat almost a million children
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  #269  
Old 24.01.2018, 11:56
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

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First do you guys are aware of cultural differences, you know you are having to deal with intolerant cultures and ignorance, since education system is failed in most of those countries?
Funny to hear this from an Albanian... The crime rate among Albanians is in Germany higher than the one from Syrians or Afghans. So: What exactly is the cultural difference or ignorance that causes serious crimes?
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  #270  
Old 24.01.2018, 12:03
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

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First do you guys are aware of cultural differences, you know you are having to deal with intolerant cultures and ignorance, since education system is failed in most of those countries?
Failed education systems in most of those countries? Sometimes the problem with such sweeping statements is that they simply turn out to be xenophobic nonsense.
I am sure in your case you will provide the sources to support your statement.
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Old 24.01.2018, 12:36
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

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IMO any Dreamer solution needs to have long-term vision. Reagan signed legislation in the 80s that helped a few million illegals gain citizenship. Many of those that are illegally in the U.S. now came after that, hoping there would be another amnesty bill.
This is the problem with amnesties in general. You create the expectation that there will be more of them and if people bank on t hey can be in trouble if thee aren't.

I don't know what long-term expectations Trump's tax amnesty is creating.
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  #272  
Old 24.01.2018, 17:14
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

Panorama had a good program on this week investigating the division that has taken place in Blackburn. Basically the main point is that integration has failed. The town is divided into a White British area and an Asian Muslim area, and the it's becoming more divided as time goes on. White flight is taking place and the number of full face veils seen amongst the Muslim community was stated to have increased dramatically in the last 60 years in the town.

Similar situations to that depicted in Blackburn were said to be taking place up and down the country and are the result of when too much immigration happens over a short period of time and isn't properly managed. I expect we'll see the same situation in Sweden and Germany.
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  #273  
Old 24.01.2018, 17:23
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

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Failed education systems in most of those countries? Sometimes the problem with such sweeping statements is that they simply turn out to be xenophobic nonsense.
I am sure in your case you will provide the sources to support your statement.
Failed education for sure but Islam comes first.
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  #274  
Old 24.01.2018, 17:24
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

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Funny to hear this from an Albanian... The crime rate among Albanians is in Germany higher than the one from Syrians or Afghans. So: What exactly is the cultural difference or ignorance that causes serious crimes?
Albanians, Syrians, Afghans... What do they have in common?
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  #275  
Old 24.01.2018, 17:25
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

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Panorama had a good program on this week investigating the division that has taken place in Blackburn. Basically the main point is that integration has failed. The town is divided into a White British area and an Asian Muslim area, and the it's becoming more divided as time goes on. White flight is taking place and the number of full face veils seen amongst the Muslim community was stated to have increased dramatically in the last 60 years in the town.

Similar situations to that depicted in Blackburn were said to be taking place up and down the country and are the result of when too much immigration happens over a short period of time and isn't properly managed. I expect we'll see the same situation in Sweden and Germany.
"increased dramatically in the last 60 years"

"too much immigration happens over a short period of time"

60 years is a short period
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  #276  
Old 24.01.2018, 17:40
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

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Albanians, Syrians, Afghans... What do they have in common?
Better food than Switzerland?

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Failed education for sure but Islam comes first.
Again: The highest crime rate among refugees comes from the Balkans, followed by Nigeria and Eritrea. The Arabs aren't even close. No matter how many times the usual suspects make their point - it just isn't true that you can blame it on Islam.

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Similar situations to that depicted in Blackburn were said to be taking place up and down the country and are the result of when too much immigration happens over a short period of time and isn't properly managed. I expect we'll see the same situation in Sweden and Germany.
I frankly don't expect the same in Sweden and Germany at all. For a simple reason: Syrians are not the same as the Pakistanis who came to the UK. The ladies in Syria dont wear full veils in their home country, so why would they in Sweden? Well, I was wearing something close to a full veil there in winter, but anyways...

The problem in the UK is not the number, but misguided efforts to accomodate even radical immigrants. Just as in the US does the freedom of speech and the freedom of religion apparnetly trump everything else. In other countries are rights a bit more balanced - you can believe in whatever you want, but you cannot deduct a god given right to sharia courts from the freedom of religion. And Mosques are for example far more controlled in Germany than in the UK - if your Imam is calling for holy war will the police take care of it. Still loads of space for improvements, but a lot of things work better there - when some salafists for example decided to roam the streets as a "sharia police" and tell off young muslims who were drinking or gambling (this started in the UK and was from there imported as an idea) were they arrested and trialed. You cannot call yourself "police" and we don't give radicals the same space.
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  #277  
Old 24.01.2018, 17:57
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

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Correct. Dreamers are not secondos born in the USA. They were brought to the USA illegally as children and have either overstayed hiding in the shadows or have been allowed to stay.
Dreamers are indeed illegal, but the argument is that it is not a fault of their own.

The issue with immigration is not really about illegal aliens, it is also about a broken legal system. It has been knowingly allowed to breakdown by society and its political system. It was a backdoor for cheap labor that was very much encouraged by just about everybody.

The question is how to address it from here onwards. Should we continue on with porous borders, and allow the supply of cheap labor to continue, or should we fix it and provide a working legal process to allow people to come in legally?

Politicians have knowingly torpedoed the solutions to this problem. Fixing it would have meant higher labor cost for American businesses. Hence Obama granted child aliens reprieve from deportation, while foregoing a legal solution for it. It makes him look like a transgressor in the process.

Trump pulled Obama's executive order and withdrew that shield of protection, compelling Congress to come up with a real solution. This is a brilliant political maneuver that will continually yield political gain for Trump. Trump will be able to milk this for a host of other concessions over time. The Democrats painted themselves in a corner with their DACA position.

I agree with Trump 1000% on this. Our immigration system and borders should be managed and controlled appropriately to allow for valid immigration. It would improve the quality of life in the US.


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I don't know what long-term expectations Trump's tax amnesty is creating.
What is the tax amnesty? The problem with situation is in validating an illegal process to continue on. You end up with a country that violates its own laws and principles. The job of Congress is to define those laws and principles, and the POTUS to execute it. That system has failed, and it needs to be fixed at the systemic level.
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  #278  
Old 24.01.2018, 19:01
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

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Failed education for sure but Islam comes first.
No sources, have to forward it to the unsubstantiated tray

Since you later mention three countries;
Albania
There are about 5000 schools throughout the nation.

Elementary education is compulsory from grades 1 to 9, but most students continue at least until a secondary education. Students must pass the graduation exams at the end of the 9th grade and also at the end of the 12th grade in order to continue their education.

In 2015, the overall literacy rate in Albania was 98.7%; the male literacy rate was 99.2% and female literacy rate was 98.3%.

Syria
Before the war started the nation was known to have a 95%-plus literacy rate and in 2011 91% of children attended school.

Afghanistan
In 2015, Afghanistan’s Ministry of Education reported that “the annual number of secondary graduates [had] risen from about 10,000 in 2001 to more than 266,000 in 2013 and [was] estimated to reach 320,000 in 2015.” public university enrollments rose from 7,800 in 2001 to 174,425 in 2015
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Old 24.01.2018, 19:10
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

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No sources, have to forward it to the unsubstantiated tray

Since you later mention three countries;
Albania
There are about 5000 schools throughout the nation.

Elementary education is compulsory from grades 1 to 9, but most students continue at least until a secondary education. Students must pass the graduation exams at the end of the 9th grade and also at the end of the 12th grade in order to continue their education.

In 2015, the overall literacy rate in Albania was 98.7%; the male literacy rate was 99.2% and female literacy rate was 98.3%.

Syria
Before the war started the nation was known to have a 95%-plus literacy rate and in 2011 91% of children attended school.

Afghanistan
In 2015, Afghanistan’s Ministry of Education reported that “the annual number of secondary graduates [had] risen from about 10,000 in 2001 to more than 266,000 in 2013 and [was] estimated to reach 320,000 in 2015.” public university enrollments rose from 7,800 in 2001 to 174,425 in 2015
Enrolling people in schools is not the same as education.

When it comes to science nobel laureates, or patent filings, none of those countries does particularly well.

Think about it, Steve Jobs's parents were Syrian. If Syria had created and nurtured more favourable opportunities, Apple could well have been founded in Syria and one of the world's most powerful companies would now be based in Syria and be creating a lot of jobs and riches there.
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Old 24.01.2018, 19:46
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

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well what do you know about albanians?
1. I know what the Kanun is.
2. I know how Albanian blood feuds are causing problems both at home as well as in the countries Albanians emigrated to.

Simply put: I find it funny if you of all people start to talk about ignorance, failed education and incompatibilities between cultures. The crime rate is a measurable fact and it seems that Arabs are more compatible to central European societies than Albanians.

P.S: For those who have no idea what I am ranting about:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...d-fueds-smolar
http://www.spiegel.de/international/...-a-564670.html
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