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Old 19.01.2018, 13:43
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

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Let me try. People from the same backgrounds tend to want to stick together really it´s as simple as that, just take a look at the Ex-pat bubbles in CH, the same principals apply, however instead of a relatively wealthy, well educated and intelligent group you get people from "shithole" countries, aka "failed states" remember these are people without any useful skills what so ever. They simply can´t compete with the local population and that shows, it´s not the doctors and engineers who are coming, people with whom you can hold debate with and who have at least a chance of integration. it´s the lowest common denominator, those who have no future in their own countries, people for whom violence is the answer to each and every question because they do not know any other way.
And if you think it´s bad now, wait until the second and third generation appear, just need to look at Germanys hard core third and fourth generation Turkish immigrants.
As I expected. Too simple.

You don't know many Somalis, do you? There are many you can hold a debate with, with whom you can have incredibly interesting conversations. And by the way, there are also Somalis with very broad education and speaking several languages (like Arabic, Italian, English to mention just a few).

Of course there are also the others, who come from the villages where they might even have been "someone" for all the reasons that don't count here.
But that does not explain the problem now.

As to the expat bubble: The Brits don't all live in one district here. I fact - apart from the Jewish community in Zurich - I know of no district that is occupied mainly by a group of people who think they have something strong in common, may it be nationality or religion or what ever.
Not even the "Züriberg" as our house-share-community happily lived amongst the rich when I was a student.
And I worked in the Jewish quarter in Zurich for a while and I loved it there, it had a very special atmosphere and I never felt excluded.
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  #22  
Old 19.01.2018, 13:49
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

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But how does a country (like Sweden) allow in massive numbers of migrants, the majority of who are not skilled workers or speak the local language...and then expect them to "flourish and thrive"? In reality, they end up living on social welfare, and moving into the same neighborhood to be with other people from their country, which then even further reduces their integration prospects. So really, the only result possible from mass immigration is cities like Mälmo where crime is out of control and people live in fear.

....at least that's my view. How would you address the "inequality"?
But this happens in New York too. In Chinatown apparently most people never need to learn English?
I'm not up to date, it's been a long time since I was there, but I was there and it's also not a no-go-zone for police either, or is it?
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Old 19.01.2018, 13:52
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

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But how does a country (like Sweden) allow in massive numbers of migrants, the majority of who are not skilled workers or speak the local language...and then expect them to "flourish and thrive"?
The same way the US did?

Tom
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Old 19.01.2018, 13:56
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

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But how does a country (like Sweden) allow in massive numbers of migrants, the majority of who are not skilled workers or speak the local language...and then expect them to "flourish and thrive"? In reality, they end up living on social welfare, and moving into the same neighborhood to be with other people from their country, which then even further reduces their integration prospects. So really, the only result possible from mass immigration is cities like Mälmo where crime is out of control and people live in fear.

....at least that's my view. How would you address the "inequality"?
I know nothing of Sweden nor the backgrounds of the immigrants there but I‘m wary to accept everyone's a crazed illiterate malcontent. It only takes a few rotten apples and nothing occurs without local criminality aiding and abetting.

The solution requires political will: politics solves these problems if people are willing to engage but consensus is not in everyone's interests, because human nature. I do know solutions need to be grassroots and top down if there‘s to be change and this can take a generation or two. It requires people being prepared to represent and lead from the front. Blaming and shaming tends not to change minds.

We can start by informing ourselves, but it‘s not popular to consider. Easier to blame and expect others to change.

And memes.
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Old 19.01.2018, 13:58
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

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The same way the US did?

Tom
Fair point. But dynamics are different. One major one, is/was that the US doesn't have the heavy social/welfare net that Sweden has. In the US you need to get up and work, nothing is handed to you. Even the Mexican migrants are on the corner every morning waiting for a work truck to come and pick them up. In Sweden on the other hand, the social/welfare state is so heavy, people can live fairly comfortably without working at all.
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Old 19.01.2018, 14:03
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

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The solution requires political will: politics solves these problems if people are willing to engage but consensus is not in everyone's interests, because human nature. I do know solutions need to be grassroots and top down if there‘s to be change and this can take a generation or two. It requires people being prepared to represent and lead from the front. Blaming and shaming tends not to change minds.
Can you be more specific? This is too vague. You don't mention any solutions.
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Old 19.01.2018, 14:05
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

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Fair point. But dynamics are different. One major one, is/was that the US doesn't have the heavy social/welfare net that Sweden has. In the US you need to get up and work, nothing is handed to you. Even the Mexican migrants are on the corner every morning waiting for a work truck to come and pick them up. In Sweden on the other hand, the social/welfare state is so heavy, people can live fairly comfortably without working at all.
I agree. But the main problem is that it is soooo difficult to actually work in an European country (Europe as the continent, not the EU).
It seems so much easier in the US to open a little shop, restaurant, what ever. Try that here??!
Get picked up by a truck for day's work? There is one place in Zurich where they do that but dog knows how many papers those guys need to show to even be allowed to hang around and wait there.
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Old 19.01.2018, 14:07
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

Huge problem in Sweden is also that it is not done to name problems, 80% of the Somalians in Sweden are unemployed and 70% of all have a low or even unspecified level of education. So what every sane country would do is come up with help and guidelines pointed towards the Somalians as a group since clearly the group as a whole needs such, this is however not done in Sweden since naming ethnics simply makes you a fascist. My parents in law for example were shocked when I said that Roma's are the most criminal group in the Netherlands, since it is not done to see them as a group and they should be treated like individuals without any special help which takes their ethnics into consideration.
That numbers clearly state that of the Adult Roma's 75% has one or more convictions, and of the one's below 18yrs 25% has one or more convictions meant nothing to them since it is only individuals and absolutely not a problem with the group. Thus offering special help/rulings for the group is in Sweden non-existent.
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Old 19.01.2018, 14:11
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

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Sweden has had consistently higher rates of rape compared to the rest of Europe because of its broader definition of rape, though.
1. Just to make this clear once again: Julian Assange is evading on what American and UK news like to call "rape allegations" - which was in his case that he had consensual unprotected sex and the girl later on changed her mind about her consent. So she can walk to the cops, file a report and the guy would then be called in and lectured about safe sex practices... it's so off, it's bizarre.

2. Sweden took in per capita way more refugees than any other country in Europe. That's why problems will naturally be bigger there.

3. I think what most Swedes are not happy with is the way the Swedish police is handling the situation. If you want to prevent crime do you need to give small time criminals a tough response to stop them from doing worse stuff. The Scandinavian approach of a very soft punishment focussed on reintegration into society works actually really well... but only with people who are part of that society. A refugee with the outlook to be sent home in a year might consider Swedish jails better than most refugee shelters. The in my eyes necessary things to do go against the grain of Swedish culture and is therefore a very hard truth to swallow...
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Old 19.01.2018, 14:25
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

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Huge problem in Sweden is also that it is not done to name problems, 80% of the Somalians in Sweden are unemployed and 70% of all have a low or even unspecified level of education. So what every sane country would do is come up with help and guidelines pointed towards the Somalians as a group since clearly the group as a whole needs such, this is however not done in Sweden since naming ethnics simply makes you a fascist... Thus offering special help/rulings for the group is in Sweden non-existent.

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I think what most Swedes are not happy with is the way the Swedish police is handling the situation. The Scandinavian approach of a very soft punishment focussed on reintegration into society works actually really well... but only with people who are part of that society. The in my eyes necessary things to do go against the grain of Swedish culture and is therefore a very hard truth to swallow...
Excellent points. This is exactly what I mean by "Sweden is changing".
...I wonder, if Sweden would have restricted immigration to more manageable numbers, would they have had the need for change? Maybe they could have kept their safe, idealistic bubble in tact? Or maybe it was bound to bust eventually anyway?
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Old 19.01.2018, 14:27
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

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Can you be more specific? This is too vague. You don't mention any solutions.
The democratic will of the people in Sweden won‘t be holding out for my solutions. Prevention is better than cure: fixing this problem is going to be a tougher political task than preparing and organising... I mean send the buggers back! Going there, taking their jobs and living off benefits. Bah.
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Old 19.01.2018, 14:34
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

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The democratic will of the people in Sweden won‘t be holding out for my solutions. Prevention is better than cure: fixing this problem is going to be a tougher political task than preparing and organising... I mean send the buggers back! Going there, taking their jobs and living off benefits. Bah.
So in other words, you are all for unlimited immigration, but then have no idea how to deal with the ugly realities of it.
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Old 19.01.2018, 14:40
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

I don't think the number is the problem, its the principle. Let's be honest on the topic for once: The vast majority of refugees, way over 99% are nice guys who appreciate the chance they got. The province of Baden-Wuerttemberg estimates that they only have a small two digit number of really bad nuts who are ruining it for all. They don't just make the news, they first of all start by causing trouble and violence in refugee shelters and only later elsewhere. So the vast majority of refugees is actually on the receiving end of the crimes comitted by refugee criminals. The key is to have the legal tools in place to combat the small number which really cause the problem.

Malmö had apparently a gang war with a couple of murders. This is not some city overrun by thousands of murdering refugees - there is a tiny number among them that need to be taken care of and the cops did not manage so far.

Throwing human rights out of the window because the politicians did not gave the police the necessary tools is probably the wrong answer to a problem.
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  #34  
Old 19.01.2018, 14:57
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

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I don't think the number is the problem, its the principle. Let's be honest on the topic for once: The vast majority of refugees, way over 99% are nice guys who appreciate the chance they got. The province of Baden-Wuerttemberg estimates that they only have a small two digit number of really bad nuts who are ruining it for all. They don't just make the news, they first of all start by causing trouble and violence in refugee shelters and only later elsewhere. So the vast majority of refugees is actually on the receiving end of the crimes comitted by refugee criminals. The key is to have the legal tools in place to combat the small number which really cause the problem.

Malmö had apparently a gang war with a couple of murders. This is not some city overrun by thousands of murdering refugees - there is a tiny number among them that need to be taken care of and the cops did not manage so far.

Throwing human rights out of the window because the politicians did not gave the police the necessary tools is probably the wrong answer to a problem.
Way over 99% are nice guys...

Well that would make them almost the least criminal group existing in Europe, I have serious troubles believing such.

Since you just said we should be honest you off course can back your statement up with facts.
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Old 19.01.2018, 15:12
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

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Way over 99% are nice guys...

Well that would make them almost the least criminal group existing in Europe, I have serious troubles believing such.

Since you just said we should be honest you off course can back your statement up with facts.
Ok, facts (for Germany):

- the number of refugees between 2014 and 2015 rose a whopping 440% for obvious reasons.
- the number of crimes reported by refugees rose by 79%. Which is pretty low. And why is that?
- when compared to locals within the same age, gender and educational background were refugees not more likely to be criminal
- refugees were not more likely comiting sex crimes than locals either.
- the groups with the highest crime rate are refugees from the Balkans, Nigeria and Eritrea. In other words: Not the Arabs everyone keeps on bashing.
- In Germany, with the over 800.000 refugees that year, were there 240 cases of at least "attemted manslaughter" or whatever you call an assault with the intent to hurt your oponent in English. Two thirds of the cases were between refugees of the same nationality. Leaving us with about 80 cases of violent crimes targeted at the local population within a group of, depending who you listen to, 800k to 1 Million refugees. In a country of 80 Million. So your chance is one in a Million to be attacked by a dude from the 1% of refugees who might do this sort of thing.

Admittedly, all numbers are for Germany. I cannot be arsed to read Swedish this afternoon. To sum it all up: The drama certain political parties, certain newspapers and people like Mr Koeppel make is completely unfounded.

https://www.focus.de/politik/deutsch...d_5291400.html
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  #36  
Old 19.01.2018, 15:27
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

He's not off course, he's sailing fine.

2014 there were 2,7 ‰ (no mistake, per 1000) Swiss criminals.
So claiming maybe 1% Somalis are criminal is quiet high, considering there are 14.32 million in Somalia and about 1 million looking for refuge.

But, I also read something in a German link worth thinking about when talking about %-criminality;

<<Erstens: „Es gibt Straftaten, die Deutsche nicht begehen können“, Verstöße gegen das Asylrecht zum Beispiel. Zweitens: „Die Polizei kann beeinflussen, wen sie kontrolliert.“ Und das seien nun mal häufig Menschen, die nicht unbedingt deutsch aussehen>>
There are criminal offenses that Germans are not able to commit such as violation of asylum law for example.
The police can influence, who it controls and these are often people who do not necessarily look German.
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Old 19.01.2018, 15:31
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

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Let's be honest on the topic for once: The vast majority of refugees, way over 99% are nice guys who appreciate the chance they got.
Of course it's a mixed bag. Clearly there are criminals coming in. Not being able to do any screening/background checks to weed out bad eggs doesn't help either. Or in many cases, the Swedish police have arrested some refugees for gang rape, but couldn't deport them for "humanitarian reasons" so they still remain in Sweden. Or maybe when they arrive they are happy and nice, but later fall into despair and turn to crime?

But yes, for the most of them, getting refugee status is like winning the lottery. Free money for life. Then they try to bring the rest of their families, etc. I don't think it's so much of a question of "if they are nice people" or not, but rather do we allow unlimited migration into Sweden/EU? It's fast reached a breaking point, as police, schools, etc. simply can't cope with it. Also, there are nearly 1 billion people living in war/poverty in Africa and the Middle East, is it the EU's responsibility to bring them all into Europe and integrate them here?


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Ok, facts (for Germany):
...
- the groups with the highest crime rate are refugees from the Balkans, Nigeria and Eritrea. In other words: Not the Arabs everyone keeps on bashing.
...
Admittedly, all numbers are for Germany. I cannot be arsed to read Swedish this afternoon. To sum it all up: The drama certain political parties, certain newspapers and people like Mr Koeppel make is completely unfounded.
Look like alot of the crime gangs in Sweden are coming from the Middle East:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organized_crime_in_Sweden

Most of the organized criminals are not newly arrived migrants, but ones who have been there a little while and know how to work the system. As you said, police have been too soft, and this is something that will be changing. Also the surveillance is allowed soon to be improved. Earlier the privacy rights of Swedes were more respected, but now this is something that has also had to finallychange as a result.

I think Arabs/Muslims are more getting the terrorist label due to Radical Islamic attacks, not so much organized crime.

Last edited by esto; 19.01.2018 at 15:45.
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Old 19.01.2018, 15:37
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

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Ok, facts (for Germany):

- the number of refugees between 2014 and 2015 rose a whopping 440% for obvious reasons.
- the number of crimes reported by refugees rose by 79%. Which is pretty low. And why is that?
- when compared to locals within the same age, gender and educational background were refugees not more likely to be criminal
- refugees were not more likely comiting sex crimes than locals either.
- the groups with the highest crime rate are refugees from the Balkans, Nigeria and Eritrea. In other words: Not the Arabs everyone keeps on bashing.
- In Germany, with the over 800.000 refugees that year, were there 240 cases of at least "attemted manslaughter" or whatever you call an assault with the intent to hurt your oponent in English. Two thirds of the cases were between refugees of the same nationality. Leaving us with about 80 cases of violent crimes targeted at the local population within a group of, depending who you listen to, 800k to 1 Million refugees. In a country of 80 Million. So your chance is one in a Million to be attacked by a dude from the 1% of refugees who might do this sort of thing.

Admittedly, all numbers are for Germany. I cannot be arsed to read Swedish this afternoon. To sum it all up: The drama certain political parties, certain newspapers and people like Mr Koeppel make is completely unfounded.

https://www.focus.de/politik/deutsch...d_5291400.html
refugees?
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Old 19.01.2018, 15:39
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

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.........
Two thirds of the cases were between refugees of the same nationality
To be fair, these are also cases not wanted to be experienced/witnessed/procecuted in the guest country
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Old 19.01.2018, 15:44
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

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......Most of the organized criminals are not newly arrived migrants, but ones who have been there a little while and know how to work the system.....
.... or lost the energy and the hope. As they had to learn that it was hardly possible to work - unlike they expected - and again they seem to have "no future" just like at home.

80% of my job with young immigrants was keeping their spirit up while they were on their way to find their place here.
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