Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Off-Topic > Off-Topic > International affairs/politics  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #381  
Old 27.01.2018, 16:35
MusicChick's Avatar
modified, reprogrammed and doctored²
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: La Cote
Posts: 16,836
Groaned at 362 Times in 249 Posts
Thanked 19,364 Times in 10,107 Posts
MusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond repute
Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

Quote:
View Post
I think it takes two sides to build a bridge.

The migrants were also not one bit culturally aware of the countries they were crossing. They managed to push all the worng buttons in the shortest possible time. The countries too, maybe didn't do enough to make it easy for them. But actually some people who did try were misunderstood. It was a no-win situation.

Germany didn't need to do much to sell itself. Everybody nows about German cars. And of course Merkel managed to position herself has a saviour. Add to the mix that many of the people who arrived were pretty naive and didn't really have a clue.
I think they did. To invest and risk all you got to make that travel, you want to see a decent return (even if it is just mere survival, ie lowest visibility). It does explain some behavior, which some see as clueless, some ungrateful, etc etc. It is logical and most of us would pass through to get to Germany. But to open the borders Merkel's style just to filter through and offload elsewhere, after her savior reputation was secured....peeved off V4. And not only because Germans wrecked our area and gassed our population 60yrs ago and now request to "populate" it under their terms (thinking a bit of EU monies will shut people up). I think that sentiment is still there. It is not really nationalism, I'd say those small autonomous places are finally growing some guts and assertivity. They still have the time. Germany or Sweden don't.
__________________
"L'homme ne peut pas remplacer son coeur avec sa tete, ni sa tete avec ses mains." J.H. Pestalozzi

“The only difference between a rut and a grave is a matter of depth.” S.P. Cadman

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." A. Einstein

Last edited by MusicChick; 27.01.2018 at 17:29.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank MusicChick for this useful post:
  #382  
Old 27.01.2018, 20:38
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: -
Posts: 247
Groaned at 141 Times in 99 Posts
Thanked 2,085 Times in 996 Posts
kriss kross has earned some respectkriss kross has earned some respect
Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

Quote:
View Post
So: What is happening in Sweden?
Immigration levels were too high for too long which hindered attempts at integration and lead to ghettoization and the emergence of parallel societies.

Throw in a politically correct culture where the fear of offending somebody outweighs the need for dialogue and you end up with Sweden.
Reply With Quote
  #383  
Old 27.01.2018, 20:52
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kt. Zürich
Posts: 10,163
Groaned at 447 Times in 385 Posts
Thanked 18,738 Times in 9,914 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

Quote:
View Post
Immigration levels were too high for too long which hindered attempts at integration and lead to ghettoization and the emergence of parallel societies.

Throw in a politically correct culture where the fear of offending somebody outweighs the need for dialogue and you end up with Sweden.
Alternatively the actions of criminal gangs are conflated with terrorism.

There is a basic difference; terrorists try to kill innocent people whereas criminal gangs try to avoid killing innocent people (third parties). This is why in ca. 100 grenade attacks in Sweden only two people were killed and one of them was dumb enough to pick up a live hand grenade

Of course such criminal gangs need to be eliminated.

I would not honour criminal gangs with the label "parallel societies".
Reply With Quote
  #384  
Old 27.01.2018, 21:04
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: -
Posts: 247
Groaned at 141 Times in 99 Posts
Thanked 2,085 Times in 996 Posts
kriss kross has earned some respectkriss kross has earned some respect
Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

Quote:
View Post
I would not honour criminal gangs with the label "parallel societies".
The Swedish Police Union told Radio Sweden that criminal gangs have created a "parallel society"

Reply With Quote
  #385  
Old 27.01.2018, 21:49
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: CH
Posts: 10,428
Groaned at 343 Times in 279 Posts
Thanked 15,210 Times in 7,806 Posts
greenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond repute
Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

Quote:
View Post
I agree Britain is not homogeneous but it did not seem a point worth pursuing as I did not understand the relevance of "homogeneous" to the topic
Yeah, agree. We can do without homogeneity. Just don't see how EU's plans will ever gonna work, Marton.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank greenmount for this useful post:
  #386  
Old 27.01.2018, 23:16
MusicChick's Avatar
modified, reprogrammed and doctored²
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: La Cote
Posts: 16,836
Groaned at 362 Times in 249 Posts
Thanked 19,364 Times in 10,107 Posts
MusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond repute
Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

Quote:
View Post
Alternatively the actions of criminal gangs are conflated with terrorism.

There is a basic difference; terrorists try to kill innocent people whereas criminal gangs try to avoid killing innocent people (third parties). This is why in ca. 100 grenade attacks in Sweden only two people were killed and one of them was dumb enough to pick up a live hand grenade
Right. Because 100 grenade attacks sound completely normal. Your normal, usual everyday criminality. In Sweden. Past 50 years. Maybe one can think that way, looking at the situation safely from here.

The problem is not, as you eloquently put it, in "dumb enough person who picked up a live hand granade". I do not think locals care if the threat is just theatrical manipulation or possible real slaughter. The signals from there sound dissappointed and worried.

Evidently, population numbers changed and with that the types of danger. It is up to the local people to address it and the community of new comers to self regulate and adjust.
__________________
"L'homme ne peut pas remplacer son coeur avec sa tete, ni sa tete avec ses mains." J.H. Pestalozzi

“The only difference between a rut and a grave is a matter of depth.” S.P. Cadman

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." A. Einstein
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank MusicChick for this useful post:
  #387  
Old 28.01.2018, 00:05
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kt. Zürich
Posts: 10,163
Groaned at 447 Times in 385 Posts
Thanked 18,738 Times in 9,914 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

Quote:
View Post
Right. Because 100 grenade attacks sound completely normal. Your normal, usual everyday criminality. In Sweden. Past 50 years. Maybe one can think that way, looking at the situation safely from here.

The problem is not, as you eloquently put it, in "dumb enough person who picked up a live hand granade". I do not think locals care if the threat is just theatrical manipulation or possible real slaughter. The signals from there sound dissappointed and worried.

Evidently, population numbers changed and with that the types of danger. It is up to the local people to address it and the community of new comers to self regulate and adjust.
Of course grenade attacks are not normal but it is also incorrect to link this issue to newcomers.

Quote:
Around 800 young men are active in different criminal networks in Sweden's three biggest cities, according to a review of police surveys carried out by broadcaster Sveriges Radio.

Swedish police intelligence from Gothenburg, Malmö and Stockholm shows that the people involved are almost always young men aged 15-25 who grew up in vulnerable areas, and sell drugs there.
Source
Reply With Quote
  #388  
Old 28.01.2018, 00:11
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Zürich
Posts: 901
Groaned at 84 Times in 66 Posts
Thanked 1,192 Times in 581 Posts
YuropFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeYuropFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeYuropFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeYuropFlyer has a reputation beyond repute
Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

I don't think a discussion with someone who thinks that "providing" statistics from the US in 2000 is somehow more relevant to discussing today's experienced situation in Europe.

It's quite easy, actually.

Free movement? Works only if no/ultra low social benefits exist.

Good social benefits? Works only if not everyone can join from anywhere in the world...

Try both together, and it will brutally fail. It's really simple. Sweden (and Germany, and Switzerland...) are learning it the hard way, right now.
Reply With Quote
  #389  
Old 28.01.2018, 00:47
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kt. Zürich
Posts: 10,163
Groaned at 447 Times in 385 Posts
Thanked 18,738 Times in 9,914 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

Quote:
View Post
I don't think a discussion with someone who thinks that "providing" statistics from the US in 2000 is somehow more relevant to discussing today's experienced situation in Europe.

It's quite easy, actually.

Free movement? Works only if no/ultra low social benefits exist.

Good social benefits? Works only if not everyone can join from anywhere in the world...

Try both together, and it will brutally fail. It's really simple. Sweden (and Germany, and Switzerland...) are learning it the hard way, right now.
Of course someone who posts without providing any sources is so credible

Free movement is a privilege enjoyed by citizens of the EU.
Refugees who come from outside of the EU have no free movement rights.
There are no free movement rights for illegal migrants who come from outside of the EU

Even if you are an EU citizen and you move to another country when you are unemployed then there is no guarantee you will get benefits from the new country.
Source
Reply With Quote
  #390  
Old 28.01.2018, 01:17
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Vaud
Posts: 1,431
Groaned at 113 Times in 73 Posts
Thanked 1,543 Times in 882 Posts
yacek has a reputation beyond reputeyacek has a reputation beyond reputeyacek has a reputation beyond reputeyacek has a reputation beyond repute
Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

Quote:
View Post
There have been many Ukrainians working in Poland before the recent conflict. They were well integrated and accepted. Ukrainians thus saw Poland as a country that would be welcoming towards them and where maybe they already had friends and relations, which would speed their integration.

The Poles also have old wounds and a difficult relationship with Russia, which has not fully healed to this day. Russia is stilkl seen by many as a threat, especially a military threat. Maybe the Poles saw the Ukrainas as victims of Russian oppression which made it easier for them to be open and welcoming.
Ukrainians in Poland: Ukraine has a huge economic crisis at the moment (probably due to the war with Russia), while Poland has relatively strong growth (at the same moment). There are resentments against Ukrainians who comitted genocide scale ethnic cleansing during WWII, but Polish opinion-leaders are conspicuously silent about the mass influx of Ukrainians workers. They're given work permits without restrictions so far, while they have to work on the black elsewhere in EU.
Ukrainian lang. is supposedly closer to Polish than to Russian (don't really know, it sounds like Russian to me).
I don't really understand why there is practically no discussion in the media in Poland because this the largest immigration ever I think.

Regarding refugees it is utmost hypocrisy to expect Poland or other EE states to pay for the wars waged by France, UK, US, Italy and Russia.

Polish society being like it is, with its most educated and elite social strata targeted by planned extermination by both Germans and Russians in WWII, and then gone through Soviet regime purges and oppression, is still a society in development and in nation building. From the point of view of both immigrants and refugees it is a shit hole country, and probably rightly so - a low-paid job worker can earn about euro 500 per month, the median is about euro 1k nett, and unemployment benefit of about euro 200 runs out after 6 months. In Poland there are relatively few renters, it used to be rhay you either own or you live with your parents. Of course I don't talk about offshore back office workers, but still the other workers rarely move, earn little, and building a new existence without family support is hard.

If the EU is bent on creating France-like banlieus (we already have troubled ones even without immigration) then hell with EU. Currently a leading opinion newspaper in PL is printing a constant stream of articles praising the advantages of adopting the Euro currency by Poland. Hopefully Poland will not do it because then the EU can twist its hand easily. It looks really like conspiracy of sorts, because then the leverage to coerce the politicians is much bigger - plenty of examples in the South.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank yacek for this useful post:
  #391  
Old 28.01.2018, 09:12
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: CH
Posts: 10,428
Groaned at 343 Times in 279 Posts
Thanked 15,210 Times in 7,806 Posts
greenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond repute
Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

Quote:
View Post
Of course grenade attacks are not normal but it is also incorrect to link this issue to newcomers.



Source
I think that in some parts of Europe there is also a fear of Islam coming from back in the history - i.e. Ottoman Empire. Try to refute there that there are no reasons for this fear and their anxieties are unjustified....lol. that. As well as of Russia, btw.
Now of course people can distinguish between the past and present days, but for them is still too similar with what happened back in the days - deportations in Soviet Russia, population engineering. If an immigrant would choose a certain country and would try to make it there, fine by me. But asylum seekers prisons or people off loads is just a big no no. Could that be, morally or ethically? Ever?
The EE societies, as yacek rightly mentioned, are societies in building, trying to overcome recent past's wounds and communism's effects. People are like everywhere, on a personal level - some more hospitable and helpful, some less so. But manageable, OK folks over all. If we weren't tolerant we couldn't have made it so far in history, trust me. Anyway, as "society" we're not prepared for what EU wants. Not on this scale, anyway.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank greenmount for this useful post:
  #392  
Old 28.01.2018, 10:02
MusicChick's Avatar
modified, reprogrammed and doctored²
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: La Cote
Posts: 16,836
Groaned at 362 Times in 249 Posts
Thanked 19,364 Times in 10,107 Posts
MusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond repute
Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

Quote:
View Post
Anyway, as "society" we're not prepared for what EU wants.
Because we don't think they are, either. Nor is Russia for their islamization, btw.

Last edited by MusicChick; 28.01.2018 at 10:27.
Reply With Quote
  #393  
Old 28.01.2018, 20:42
amogles's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 11,176
Groaned at 241 Times in 204 Posts
Thanked 23,465 Times in 9,976 Posts
amogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond repute
Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

Quote:
View Post
I agree Britain is not homogeneous but it did not seem a point worth pursuing as I did not understand the relevance of "homogeneous" to the topic
I would disagree

Compared to Eastern Europe, Britain is very homogenous. Okay, there may be lots of different religions and skin tones and things, but this isn't really a big deal for most. These differences are more on the surface. Past waves of immigration have integrated extremely well, and identity differences don't play a big role in societal or political dynamics, certain groups excepted.

Whether recent waves will follow in their footsteps remains to be seen. I think it will get more difficult, but that's just my view. I would be happy to be proven wrong.

If you think Britain isn't comparatively homogenous, you haven't really understood Eastern Europe,
Reply With Quote
  #394  
Old 28.01.2018, 21:06
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kt. Zürich
Posts: 10,163
Groaned at 447 Times in 385 Posts
Thanked 18,738 Times in 9,914 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

Quote:
View Post
I would disagree

Compared to Eastern Europe, Britain is very homogenous. Okay, there may be lots of different religions and skin tones and things, but this isn't really a big deal for most. These differences are more on the surface. Past waves of immigration have integrated extremely well, and identity differences don't play a big role in societal or political dynamics, certain groups excepted.

Whether recent waves will follow in their footsteps remains to be seen. I think it will get more difficult, but that's just my view. I would be happy to be proven wrong.

If you think Britain isn't comparatively homogenous, you haven't really understood Eastern Europe,
Try visiting NE England, Cornwall, Wales, Scottish Highlands
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank marton for this useful post:
  #395  
Old 28.01.2018, 21:53
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

Quote:
View Post

If you think Britain isn't comparatively homogenous, you haven't really understood Eastern Europe,
Britain: that sea-faring nation with commonwealth territories from every corner of the world that saw influxes of people both desired and undesired?

Yep - totally homogenous...
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank for this useful post:
  #396  
Old 28.01.2018, 22:46
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Steinach SG
Posts: 8,569
Groaned at 417 Times in 313 Posts
Thanked 11,219 Times in 5,889 Posts
Urs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond repute
Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

Quote:
View Post
Right. Because 100 grenade attacks sound completely normal. Your normal, usual everyday criminality. In Sweden. Past 50 years. Maybe one can think that way, looking at the situation safely from here.
Importing guns into Sweden is illegal, importing explosives however is legal. , including hand grenades. Hand grenade dealers face very little risk so rationally the weapon of choice are grenades.

With plenty of weapons of all kinds available in former Yugoslavia, the consequence is rather obvious.
Reply With Quote
  #397  
Old 29.01.2018, 07:34
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: CH
Posts: 10,428
Groaned at 343 Times in 279 Posts
Thanked 15,210 Times in 7,806 Posts
greenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond repute
Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

Quote:
View Post
I would disagree

Compared to Eastern Europe, Britain is very homogenous. Okay, there may be lots of different religions and skin tones and things, but this isn't really a big deal for most. These differences are more on the surface. Past waves of immigration have integrated extremely well, and identity differences don't play a big role in societal or political dynamics, certain groups excepted.

Whether recent waves will follow in their footsteps remains to be seen. I think it will get more difficult, but that's just my view. I would be happy to be proven wrong.

If you think Britain isn't comparatively homogenous, you haven't really understood Eastern Europe,
I would say - on he contrary....I guess this is one thing we're never going to agree.


Can't help thinking how funny this is in the end - this is exactly the image some Eastern Europeans have on UK, France and other Western European countries - let's put it in a few words: the opposite of homogeneity. There is an entire history to back this up, and forgive me amogles, but those past waves of immigrants don't seem to have integrated that well from where I stand - many reasons for that, and not at all simple of course.

The thing is, looking at some of the EE countries, they really don't want that kind of "homogeneity" you were talking about. We may argue if they have the right to desire so, them being the poorer parts of EU and all that, but the opinions are there.

Last election' results in the Czech Republic clearly show that under recent developments in the EU, the majority wants things to slow down - not being ready for the much advocated and praised Western homogeneity and integration successes.

Last edited by greenmount; 29.01.2018 at 08:13.
Reply With Quote
  #398  
Old 29.01.2018, 08:36
amogles's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 11,176
Groaned at 241 Times in 204 Posts
Thanked 23,465 Times in 9,976 Posts
amogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond repute
Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

Quote:
View Post
I think he meant Western Europe in general (not sure if CH was included here) but especially Britain, France and Germany. (the first two particularly not seeming homogenous in any way to me but I know I can be wrong)
I do think there are plenty of similarities between Switzerland and Eastern Eurooe.

Maybe Switzerland gives us a glimpse of what Easten Europe could have been like had Communism not got in the way.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank amogles for this useful post:
  #399  
Old 29.01.2018, 08:52
robBob's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Zurich
Posts: 2,707
Groaned at 53 Times in 40 Posts
Thanked 2,532 Times in 1,361 Posts
robBob has a reputation beyond reputerobBob has a reputation beyond reputerobBob has a reputation beyond reputerobBob has a reputation beyond reputerobBob has a reputation beyond repute
Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

Quote:
View Post
I do think there are plenty of similarities between Switzerland and Eastern Eurooe.

Maybe Switzerland gives us a glimpse of what Easten Europe could have been like had Communism not got in the way.
How so?
Reply With Quote
  #400  
Old 29.01.2018, 09:56
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

Quote:
View Post
The EE societies, as yacek rightly mentioned, are societies in building, trying to overcome recent past's wounds and communism's effects. People are like everywhere, on a personal level - some more hospitable and helpful, some less so. But manageable, OK folks over all. If we weren't tolerant we couldn't have made it so far in history, trust me. Anyway, as "society" we're not prepared for what EU wants. Not on this scale, anyway.
Tolerance, generosity, charity and all that stuff are for me best kept as personal values and traits people desire and develop. When these are demanded and forced on people from on high by their governments, they are no longer the same values. I don't believe it is good to force these on people, as it only compels them to fake it. I don't see this being all too different from state religions enforced on a people in a theocracy. It doesn't really work.

Personally, I would rather see these as genuine expressions of people's personal values rather than some enforced morals on people who don't truly hold them. When forced, its outcome tends to turn out being pretty horrendous and ugly.

What do you do with people who don't hold them? Call them "deplorables" and imprison them in re-education camps?
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank for this useful post:
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
1-0 against Liverpool!What is happening? englishspeaker Football/sports 5 03.11.2014 00:58
What's happening this weekend? M. Ploymi Travel/day trips/free time 18 16.09.2011 17:40
What happening to Switzerland ? BasP72 Other/general 3 01.05.2011 01:13
What is happening to Geneva ... It SUCKS Momus Daily life 159 15.08.2010 23:42
[chainsaw attack] What's happening in/to this country? ValleyCEO Daily life 102 08.08.2009 20:46


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 23:46.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0