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  #41  
Old 19.01.2018, 16:47
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

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Ok, facts (for Germany):

1. - the number of refugees between 2014 and 2015 rose a whopping 440% for obvious reasons.
2. - the number of crimes reported by refugees rose by 79%. Which is pretty low. And why is that?
3. - when compared to locals within the same age, gender and educational background were refugees not more likely to be criminal
4. - refugees were not more likely comiting sex crimes than locals either.
5. - the groups with the highest crime rate are refugees from the Balkans, Nigeria and Eritrea. In other words: Not the Arabs everyone keeps on bashing.
6. - In Germany, with the over 800.000 refugees that year, were there 240 cases of at least "attemted manslaughter" or whatever you call an assault with the intent to hurt your oponent in English. Two thirds of the cases were between refugees of the same nationality. Leaving us with about 80 cases of violent crimes targeted at the local population within a group of, depending who you listen to, 800k to 1 Million refugees. In a country of 80 Million. So your chance is one in a Million to be attacked by a dude from the 1% of refugees who might do this sort of thing.

Admittedly, all numbers are for Germany. I cannot be arsed to read Swedish this afternoon. To sum it all up: The drama certain political parties, certain newspapers and people like Mr Koeppel make is completely unfounded.

https://www.focus.de/politik/deutsch...d_5291400.html
Selective numbers you put up there, give people a little time to settle... The number of suspected crimes by refugees, asylum-seekers and illegal immigrants rose to 174,438 in 2016 which is a rise of 52.7% Crimes amongst refugees increased disproportionately even when taken in account the influx. (Not my words, but those of the German interior minister)

He also said this: “The proportion of foreign suspects, and migrants in particular, is higher than the average for the general population.” And he said that 1% is responsible for 40% of the crimes.

So how does the fact that 1% is responsible for 40% of the crimes hold up to your statement that way more than 99% are fine people, maybe your definition of who should be considered fine allows people to commit some crimes...?

To me your posting read as downplaying with imaginary numbers, and this indeed seems to be case.

And, People bash Arabs since for example people from Morocco are in several countries the most criminal large group, however they are often not seen as refugees, and expelled within weeks or disappear out of sight when they disabuse the asylum policies for a free holiday, and a lot of the Moroccans are even 2nd or 3rd generation. People dislike them not only based on feelings but also based on statistics but indeed do often not differentiate between the different Arab groups. Irak for example has high numbers on successfully integrated refugees.
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  #42  
Old 19.01.2018, 16:58
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

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Selective numbers you put up there, give people a little time to settle... The number of suspected crimes by refugees, asylum-seekers and illegal immigrants rose to 174,438 in 2016 which is a rise of 52.7% Crimes amongst refugees increased disproportionately even when taken in account the influx. (Not my words, but those of the German interior minister)

He also said this: “The proportion of foreign suspects, and migrants in particular, is higher than the average for the general population.” And he said that 1% is responsible for 40% of the crimes.

So how does the fact that 1% is responsible for 40% of the crimes hold up to your statement that way more than 99% are fine people, maybe your definition of who should be considered fine allows people to commit some crimes...?

To me your posting read as downplaying with imaginary numbers, and this indeed seems to be case.

And, People bash Arabs since for example people from Morocco are in several countries the most criminal large group, however they are often not seen as refugees, and expelled within weeks or disappear out of sight when they disabuse the asylum policies for a free holiday, and a lot of the Moroccans are even 2nd or 3rd generation. People dislike them not only based on feelings but also based on statistics but indeed do often not differentiate between the different Arab groups. Irak for example has high numbers on successfully integrated refugees.
Imaginary numbers?

Here people are innocent until convicted. But bad statistics of course look a hell of a lot better with a little speculation.

Before it was the asylum-seekers, it was the gardener. It was ALWAYS the gardener.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzzczWILqdk
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  #43  
Old 19.01.2018, 17:06
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

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Imaginary numbers?

Here people are innocent until convicted. But bad statistics of course look a hell of a lot better with a little speculation.

Before it was the asylum-seekers, it was the gardener. It was ALWAYS the gardener.
Yes I call his "Way more than 99% are fine people" a wishful imaginary thought.

And his statement up to now lacks proof to make it a fact.
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  #44  
Old 19.01.2018, 17:09
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

1. I gave you numbers from a conservative news source. Not exactly tree hugging hippies at Focus. Their source was a report by the federal police. No hippies there either.

2. You return with statements of a right winged politician which were made during an election campaign...

3. If you read the article I shared would you see that
- over a third of crimes comited by refugees are to do with their papers. If you arrive in Germany on your own without papers is this technically a small offense.
- another third of crimes were very small property issues. Mostly fare dodging follow by small time theft.

Yes, it's a personal opinion. I do not consider a person a bad criminal if he did not register in Greece but walked on to Germany. I also don't consider them serious criminals when they get caught riding a train without a ticket. Many are in some shelter in the middle of nowhere and might be too easily tempted to take a ride they technically cannot afford. Should they get a fine and a record? Sure. Does this turn a city into a no-go zone where the police cannot protect you? No.

So when you throw total numbers around do you need to understand that these numbers are not exactly all rape and murder.
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  #45  
Old 19.01.2018, 17:10
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

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Yes I call his "Way more than 99% are fine people" a wishful imaginary thought.

And his statement up to now lacks proof to make it a fact.
While we're all knocked out flat by your facts.

Come on, Edwin. It's a serious problem. Let's not have the usual "asylum seekers are generally bad" babble. We've had these threads ..... and the population of many countries hat this too .... it lead nowhere as we can see.


PS: Not one post of your's here contained a single link!
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  #46  
Old 19.01.2018, 17:16
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

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While we're all knocked out flat by your facts.

Come on, Edwin. It's a serious problem. Let's not have the usual "asylum seekers are generally bad" babble. We've had these threads ..... and the population of many countries hat this too .... it lead nowhere as we can see.
According to the BKA (Bundes Kriminal amt), nearly 300,000 cases were registered in 2016 in which at least one immigrant was arrested on suspicion of committing a crime. Although the total number of incidents decreased in 2016, there was a clear increase in the number of crimes committed by refugees.

Given the amount of time it often takes to wrap up a case, there are no numbers available on how many of those 300.000 cases will lead to someone to be a criminal instead of only a suspect.

But clearly his statement is false.

The fact that I would like the discussion to be done with actual numbers and not just made up numbers, and that I think there is nothing wrong with stating that a refugee due to whatever cause has a higher chance to be a criminal than a non refugee which is nothing more than a fact based on statistics apparently reduces me to some already to be a racist. If problems cannot be named they are less likely to be solved.

You'd make a good Swede.

PS: Have a link

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However, in April 2017, the crime figures released for 2016 showed that the number of suspected crimes by refugees, asylum-seekers and illegal immigrants increased by 50 percent.[5] The figures showed that most of the suspected crimes were by repeat offenders, and that 1 percent of migrants accounted for 40 percent of total migrant crimes.[5] In 2016 and 2017, reported crimes in Lower Saxony rose by more than 10 percent, an increase "attributed overwhelmingly to cases involving refugees."[6]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigr...ime_in_Germany

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According to the BKA, nearly 300,000 cases were registered in 2016 in which at least one immigrant was arrested on suspicion of committing a crime. Although the total number of incidents decreased in 2016, there was a clear increase in the number of crimes committed by refugees.
http://www.dw.com/en/are-refugees-mo...zen/a-38371284

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“The proportion of foreign suspects, and migrants in particular, is higher than the average for the general population.”
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Most of the crimes are committed by repeat offenders, and just 1 per cent of migrants account for 40 per cent of migrant crimes, according to the figures.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017...-figures-show/
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  #47  
Old 19.01.2018, 17:19
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

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According to the BKA (Bundes Kriminal amt), nearly 300,000 cases were registered in 2016 in which at least one immigrant was arrested on suspicion of committing a crime.
Why don't we look at the source you apparently have but not share

Afraid that there is a break down in the report what sort of offenses we are talking about?

Do we agree that fare dodging does not make a place unsafe?
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  #48  
Old 19.01.2018, 17:22
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

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According to the BKA (Bundes Kriminal amt), nearly 300,000 cases were registered in 2016 in which at least one immigrant was arrested on suspicion of committing a crime. Although the total number of incidents decreased in 2016, there was a clear increase in the number of crimes committed by refugees.

Given the amount of time it often takes to wrap up a case, there are no numbers available on how many of those 300.000 cases will lead to someone to be a criminal instead of only a suspect.

But clearly his statement is false.

The fact that I would like the discussion to be done with actual numbers and not just made up numbers, and that I think there is nothing wrong with stating that a refugee due to whatever cause has a higher chance to be a criminal than a non refugee which is nothing more than a fact based on statistics apparently reduces me to some already to be a racist. If problems cannot be named they are less likely to be solved.

You'd make a good Swede.
I am sorry but it is not possible for me to take you seriously.
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  #49  
Old 19.01.2018, 17:24
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

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Why don't we look at the source you apparently have but not share

Afraid that there is a break down in the report what sort of offenses we are talking about?

Do we agree that fare dodging does not make a place unsafe?
See above for links.

And I am not afraid, and I still have seen nothing that proves your statement to be correct, and even tho I placed facts that proof you wrong you still insist on your imaginary feel good number.

The internet works very simple, you make a statement so I ask you to back it up. You cannot do this so your statement is wrong.
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  #50  
Old 19.01.2018, 17:28
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

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I am sorry but it is not possible for me to take you seriously.
You can hit a button so you do not have to see my posts anymore
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  #51  
Old 19.01.2018, 17:34
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

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You can hit a button so you do not have to see my posts anymore
I don't need an ignore button for that

Gotta run, going for authentic Lebanese food.
They might kill me
Souldn't get your hopes up too high though
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  #52  
Old 19.01.2018, 17:40
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

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I don't need an ignore button for that

Gotta run, going for authentic Lebanese food.
They might kill me
This sort of shows how shortsighted you appear to be in this matter, or your sense of humor is just boring.

Oh my.. somebody wants to discuss with real numbers, he must be a racist and not even like their food.

Greets, and wish you a great meal (I in fact do love the Arab kitchen and consider it more tasty and less boring than the average Western European kitchen.
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Old 19.01.2018, 17:47
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

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This sort of shows how shortsighted you appear to be in this matter, or your sense of humor is just boring.
I cannot express how exciting your posts are... honestly: its not fun to make a debate when you aren't even trying to hide your prejudices.

Want an example: You quoted, out of context:
Quote:
According to the BKA, nearly 300,000 cases were registered in 2016 in which at least one immigrant was arrested on suspicion of committing a crime. Although the total number of incidents decreased in 2016, there was a clear increase in the number of crimes committed by refugees.
So let's understand this:
- the total number of crimes in Germany is declining.
- the number committed by refugees is climbing.

You take this as an argument that refugees are more likely to be criminal. What is missing in the statement? That there was a sharp increase of the number of refugees in the country in that year. So that the total number of crimes is going up is no way a surprise, it's basic statistics.

I could in the same way tear appart the other arguments, especially the ones from my dear interior minister... but as I said - it's just too exciting to debate with you...
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  #54  
Old 19.01.2018, 17:58
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

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I cannot express how exciting your posts are... honestly: its not fun to make a debate when you aren't even trying to hide your prejudices.

Want an example: You quoted, out of context:

So let's understand this:
- the total number of crimes in Germany is declining.
- the number committed by refugees is climbing.

You take this as an argument that refugees are more likely to be criminal. What is missing in the statement? That there was a sharp increase of the number of refugees in the country in that year. So that the total number of crimes is going up is no way a surprise, it's basic statistics.

I could in the same way tear appart the other arguments, especially the ones from my dear interior minister... but as I said - it's just too exciting to debate with you...
I am using the numbers presented by me to proof your statement wrong.

If 40% of the crimes committed by immigrants/refugees is committed by only 1% of them and the other 60% by the rest of them (no clue about percentage of them who does such, but not important, since the math already holds up)

Than simple math teaches us that it is impossible for "way over 99% to be fine people" as you said. (And here I define fine people as people who do not commit crimes.)

Please explain how confronted with such facts even spoken out by the German interior minister you think you can hold up your statement.

And please just answer the question, since that is what our discussion is about.

PS: Refugees are more likely to be criminal than the average German already purely based on for example their age, sex and education. Young man are overly presented in crime statistics, and refugees are in large percentage young man, so there is nothing shady about it, it is just facts. Would you compare Refugees to only a certain specific group of Germans (based on sex, age, income and education for example) and not the Germans as a whole than the numbers grow more towards each other.
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Old 19.01.2018, 18:21
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

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yadayadayada

Please explain how confronted with such facts even spoken out by the German interior minister you think you can hold up your statement.

PS: Refugees are more likely to be criminal than the average German already purely based on for example their age, sex and education. Young man are overly presented in crime statistics, and refugees are in large percentage young man, so there is nothing shady about it, it is just facts. Would you compare Refugees to only a certain specific group of Germans (based on sex, age, income and education for example) and not the Germans as a whole than the numbers grow more towards each other.
Simple:
- 1% of refugees comitt 40% of all crimes. You essentially want to know what I think about the other 60%.
- Over a third of all crimes of refugees have to do with their papers and wether or not they are telling the truth when registering. Even if we assume that the 1% of repeat offenders all did this, does this leave us with 30% of all cases left. And that's common sense: Lying on your registration or throwing away your passport is nothing you can do repeatedly. So this has already half of the remaining 60% covered.
- another third is as I said small time property crime. In plain English fare dodging and small time shoplifting. Nothing violent, nothing with weapons, robbery, drugs, sex or in any other way interesting.

Et voila: You got your 60% easily covered. Any you know what: It really does not matter if it is 1% or indeed 2% of refugees which are the bad apples. The point is that it is a tiny minority and that a country like Germany or indeed Sweden should be able to take care of the problem without right winged populism and blaming the whole lot instead of those few.

P.S: If you, once again, read the article I posted would you have seen that the statistic by the federal police already compared refugees to similar groups of German nationals in terms of age, sex and education. The numbers are not "closer", they are the same. An 18 year old male refugee is not more criminal than an 18 year old German boy and in fact less criminal than an 18 year old German male with a second generation migration background. But its so much easier to blame it on "the Arabs" than on the apparently failed integration and school policies of the last four decades.
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  #56  
Old 19.01.2018, 18:39
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

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Simple:
- 1% of refugees comitt 40% of all crimes. You essentially want to know what I think about the other 60%.
- Over a third of all crimes of refugees have to do with their papers and wether or not they are telling the truth when registering. Even if we assume that the 1% of repeat offenders all did this, does this leave us with 30% of all cases left. And that's common sense: Lying on your registration or throwing away your passport is nothing you can do repeatedly. So this has already half of the remaining 60% covered.
- another third is as I said small time property crime. In plain English fare dodging and small time shoplifting. Nothing violent, nothing with weapons, robbery, drugs, sex or in any other way interesting.

Et voila: You got your 60% easily covered. Any you know what: It really does not matter if it is 1% or indeed 2% of refugees which are the bad apples. The point is that it is a tiny minority and that a country like Germany or indeed Sweden should be able to take care of the problem without right winged populism and blaming the whole lot instead of those few.
Incredible this...

First you say 30% is due to their papers and them not telling the truth. Then you say another 30% is due to them lying on their registration or throwing away their passport.. And there you say you have 60% of all crimes covered. What is the difference between the first and the last 30%

Are you trolling? You just take the same group of 30% twice and just say Voila 60% of the crimes are actually not to be considered criminal or should be left out of the discussion since they are as it seems perfectly fine by you.

(why someone who throws away their passport and/or tells lies should be considered fine is a mystery to me...)

Let me make this very simple.

Imagine 10.000 Apples.

You say: Way more than 9900 Apples are fine.

I Proof that 1% is rotten, and that a part of the rest is rotten.

Due to this it is impossible that you are correct.
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  #57  
Old 19.01.2018, 18:43
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

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As I expected. Too simple.

You don't know many Somalis, do you? There are many you can hold a debate with, with whom you can have incredibly interesting conversations. And by the way, there are also Somalis with very broad education and speaking several languages (like Arabic, Italian, English to mention just a few)
.

Actually yes I do, remember where I now live, there are areas where "Spot the white man is a game" I would say 20% Somalis, 50% Nigerians and the rest... stick a map of Africa on the wall and get a handful of darts. Thing is, non of them mix with the Maltese, heck even the Britacolypse here in Bugibba doesn´t mix with the locals but will stick together at the drop of a pint. Remember we are not talking about the handful of polylingual individuals that get paraded as a shining beacon of Merkels last hope but the great unwashed.

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Of course there are also the others, who come from the villages where they might even have been "someone" for all the reasons that don't count here.
But that does not explain the problem now.
Actually I blame the missionaries and all the aid the west has crammed down the throat of Africa. Too many young males are surviving these days, there are not enough wars and no longer enough deadly epidemics to cull the population to acceptable levels, sounds harsh I know, but this is Africa we are talking about, our morals and views simply do not apply. In a lot of the more "conservative" parts villages will get together and send 20 or 30 of their surplus males on the journey, they expect that at least 10 will make it and be able to send money back to the villages, it´s a win-win situation, the villages get rid of the males and stand to make some money.
Thing is they HAVE to make money that is their end game and why should they not, the streets of Europe are paved with gold and you get money for free according to the propaganda. This is actually the main reason they are here not escape from war. (this is by the way paraphrased from the training material you get when you volunteer for working with the refugees)

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As to the expat bubble: The Brits don't all live in one district here. I fact - apart from the Jewish community in Zurich - I know of no district that is occupied mainly by a group of people who think they have something strong in common, may it be nationality or religion or what ever.
Not even the "Züriberg" as our house-share-community happily lived amongst the rich when I was a student.
And I worked in the Jewish quarter in Zurich for a while and I loved it there, it had a very special atmosphere and I never felt excluded.
Ok, there are no British Ex-pat ghettos in Zürich, there is one in Basel, it´s called "Pickwicks" thing is we are talking about two very similar cultures, and there is not much of a ΔE as there is between, let´s say Swede and Somali. The only overlap there is that the name of both countries starts with an "S"
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Old 19.01.2018, 18:54
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

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P.S: If you, once again, read the article I posted would you have seen that the statistic by the federal police already compared refugees to similar groups of German nationals in terms of age, sex and education. The numbers are not "closer", they are the same. An 18 year old male refugee is not more criminal than an 18 year old German boy and in fact less criminal than an 18 year old German male with a second generation migration background. But its so much easier to blame it on "the Arabs" than on the apparently failed integration and school policies of the last four decades.
The problem with comparing the refugees to German nationals is that Germany has more diverse demographics in regards to age and sex.

The majority of the refugees are 14-30 year old males - which just happen to be the group most likely to commit violent crimes.

Last edited by kriss kross; 19.01.2018 at 20:41.
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Old 19.01.2018, 19:01
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

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The problem with comparing the refugees to German nationals is that Germany has a much more diverse demographic in regards to age and sex.

The majority of the refugees are 14-30 year old males - which just happen to be the group most likely to commit violent crimes.
Treverus and I both have named this already, this is also not what the discussion is about (not to me at least)
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Old 19.01.2018, 19:44
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

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So in other words, you are all for unlimited immigration, but then have no idea how to deal with the ugly realities of it.
I‘m not for unlimited immigration. Keep calm, have a Rollmopp.

It‘s slightly frustrating how topics descend to point scoring and rivalry. The topics are complicated enough without tedious "You‘re wrong" discussions.

I wrote political will decides how these matters play out and as we see in this thread alone it's a heady brew trying to build consensus.

Considering the madness from which the immigrants flee it‘s no surprise normal rules don't apply. Blame the Sin, not the Sinner.
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