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  #881  
Old 16.08.2018, 16:33
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

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You mean like Switzerland having most of its officialdom available in English for those too precious to learn one of the languages? That kind of thing?
Or Swiss Cantons that can enforce pupils to shake the hand of their teacher or risk a fine.
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  #882  
Old 16.08.2018, 16:42
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

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Or Swiss Cantons that can enforce pupils to shake the hand of their teacher or risk a fine.
That one was rejected. No shaking, no forcing, no fining.

You were probably thinking of the Muslim parents wanting their daughter to sit out of mixed swimming lessons.

HTH
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  #883  
Old 16.08.2018, 16:53
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

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Who actually carried out the recent vandalism in Sweden. What's the actual story, I'm a bit slow.
I've read a few sources of news so far all all seem deliberately vague. Even the few witness statements just say "young men dressed in black"

Normally such stories normally have better pictures, some descriptions such as white youths, black youths. I mean if they were so well hidden, how do we even know it was men.
Given that some are arrested in Turkey for this I do assume based on nothing else that they are not called Larsson, Svensson or Ericsson.
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  #884  
Old 16.08.2018, 16:53
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

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That one was rejected. No shaking, no forcing, no fining.

You were probably thinking of the Muslim parents wanting their daughter to sit out of mixed swimming lessons.

HTH
Go to Basel Land and test it out.
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  #885  
Old 16.08.2018, 17:07
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

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Given that some are arrested in Turkey for this I do assume based on nothing else that they are not called Larsson, Svensson or Ericsson.
I guess it's easy to see how everyone gets so hysterical over Muslims in that case.

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Go to Basel Land and test it out.
I wonder how many people were wringing their hands and muttering about "the thin end of the wedge".
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  #886  
Old 16.08.2018, 18:41
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

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Around 100 cars were set alight in Gothenburg and surrounding cities
Another 13 on fire in Stockholm and Uppsala, and cars burned in Malmo.

A teenager has been arrested in Turkey in connection with the systematic firebombing of cars across Sweden earlier this week.

Justice and Home Affairs Minister Morgan Johansson called the attacks "despicable," according to The Local, writing on Twitter, "Last year the government tightened the punishment for aggravated vandalism, which can now give up to six years in jail. Hope the thugs get arrested so that they get the punishment they deserved."

'We have already started making calls to the parents of the youths who were taking part in this,' Gothenburg police spokesperson Ulla Brehm told SVT.

'We chose not to arrest anyone on the spot, but have identified them.'
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti..._campaign=1490
https://www.npr.org/2018/08/14/63847...uthorities-say


I can't wait for Sept.9 elections
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  #887  
Old 17.08.2018, 02:11
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

You forgot to highlight that he was arrested in Turkey, a muslim country last time I checked.
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  #888  
Old 17.08.2018, 02:19
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

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If you take a step back, though, is it really that significant? This close to an election, the far right would be finger pointing a Muslim who farted in a lift.

I could understand them making gains if there was a terrorist incident this close to the election but if that's all the far right have got, it just smacks a bit of desperation.

Then again, there's no accounting for what gets the knickers of some people in a twist, is there?
The problem with that lies in the fact that this verdict effectively creates two kinds of rights.

1) those claiming to act on a religious belief can act whichever way they want, irrespective of social norms.
2) the other party has to simply accept whatever the first's is, without ability to react to that as social norms see fit. Any reactioin against the first's is a violation of the human rights.

By that logic, if my spaghettimonster-in-the-sky belief tells me to tear off every Christian cross I may encounter I'm perfectly fine because I act on my religious belief. In reality however I'd be laughed at whereas the Christian's belief would be enforced. So not only are there two sets of law as per the top, there are also different kinds of religious beliefs, different levels of enforcibility.

All that in a secular state, mind.
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  #889  
Old 17.08.2018, 07:13
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

I don't see anything to laugh at here....it is sad that someone can believe that "God" doesn't want you to shake hands with other human beings.

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The problem with that lies in the fact that this verdict effectively creates two kinds of rights.

1) those claiming to act on a religious belief can act whichever way they want, irrespective of social norms.
.
And of course, there's nothing wrong with that....no? "Human rights" and all that jazz.
But anyway, I guess the Swedish know better to run their own state. As long as it stays there, they should be free to do whatever they please in their country.

Last edited by greenmount; 17.08.2018 at 07:29.
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  #890  
Old 17.08.2018, 08:32
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

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The problem with that lies in the fact that this verdict effectively creates two kinds of rights.

1) those claiming to act on a religious belief can act whichever way they want, irrespective of social norms.
2) the other party has to simply accept whatever the first's is, without ability to react to that as social norms see fit. Any reactioin against the first's is a violation of the human rights.

By that logic, if my spaghettimonster-in-the-sky belief tells me to tear off every Christian cross I may encounter I'm perfectly fine because I act on my religious belief. In reality however I'd be laughed at whereas the Christian's belief would be enforced. So not only are there two sets of law as per the top, there are also different kinds of religious beliefs, different levels of enforcibility.

All that in a secular state, mind.
As I said "taking a step back" in my earlier post, the sentiment was more to demonstrate that if I were a voter in Sweden and the far right parties were making a big song and dance about some woman not wanting to shake hands, I would be thinking "FFS, grow up and start worrying more about your policies!"

Tearing off religious symbols, on the other hand, can range from petty vandalism to personal assault, so that's not really the right thing to compare with a simple refusal to shake hands.

On a side note, not shaking hands is not that uncommon these days but if you are doing through the belief that you are worried about transferring or receiving coughs, colds and flu apparently it's all fine. If she'd said that instead of "I'm a Muslim" would that have made a difference?

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I don't see anything to laugh at here....it is sad that someone can believe that "God" doesn't want you to shake hands with other human beings.
Apparently "god" has been telling all sorts of people how they can act for centuries. It's the easiest way to explain away your bizarre behaviour and ditch personal responsibility for being a dick.
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  #891  
Old 17.08.2018, 22:20
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

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On a side note, not shaking hands is not that uncommon these days but if you are doing through the belief that you are worried about transferring or receiving coughs, colds and flu apparently it's all fine. If she'd said that instead of "I'm a Muslim" would that have made a difference?
I think it's a complete non-issue for the public, shaking hands or not is a personal decision. So is the other's reaction to that, that's why i think the decision to not hire is Ok as well.

The ruling however accepts only one, that produces a hierarchy when there should be none.
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And of course, there's nothing wrong with that....no? "Human rights" and all that jazz.
But anyway, I guess the Swedish know better to run their own state. As long as it stays there, they should be free to do whatever they please in their country.
There's no right or wrong, shaking hands or not isn't a moral decision. But you're free to be upset by the other's (in)action and react as you see fit (as long as you respect criminal law).
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  #892  
Old 18.08.2018, 08:05
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

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I think it's a complete non-issue for the public, shaking hands or not is a personal decision. So is the other's reaction to that, that's why i think the decision to not hire is Ok as well.

The ruling however accepts only one, that produces a hierarchy when there should be none.
There's no right or wrong, shaking hands or not isn't a moral decision. But you're free to be upset by the other's (in)action and react as you see fit (as long as you respect criminal law).
Frankly I find that a terrible lack of gratitude for the country that accepts people from different places, no questions asked. I don't understand why would someone want to be in a place where they don't think the local values are compatible with their own.

The fact that the Swedish justice agrees on this silliness (and others, unrelated to religions) it's not really surprising though, we live in that kind of era. And this is the point where I, unfortunately, have to agree with Loz - the rise of far right wing parties is not all of a sudden and not at all - unexplainable. Wanting to protect the local cultures is not a crime, neither here in CH, nor anywhere else. Religious freedom entails other things. But I guess we can't have this discussion, can we. Let's leave it at that, defo not that big of a deal for us expats in CH...

Last edited by greenmount; 18.08.2018 at 09:41.
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  #893  
Old 18.08.2018, 18:24
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

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Frankly I find that a terrible lack of gratitude for the country that accepts people from different places, no questions asked. I don't understand why would someone want to be in a place where they don't think the local values are compatible with their own.
Well, if enough people from a certain culture form a majority in a certain area, then they can build an enclave where they can effectively bring their culture with them, and drown out the culture that existed there before them.


Which is why the Islamic culture of refusing to shake hands and insisting on keeping other "imported" or "non-native" traditions is considered a big deal in EU. People in Europe still want to keep EU cultures and values. But yet one of our values is allowing people individual freedoms, so then it becomes a balancing act on how to still keep your culture, but at the same time allowing in large numbers of people from other cultures. The key points here is to restrict the immigration, and the ones who do immigrate should integrate into EU cultures and norms.



"Multiculturalism" is a kind of dangerous experiment, as you could wind up with either no culture, someone else's culture, or a completely new culture altogether that nobody had envisioned (ie: Western culture may eat/destroy itself)
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  #894  
Old 18.08.2018, 19:03
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

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Well, if enough people from a certain culture form a majority in a certain area, then they can build an enclave where they can effectively bring their culture with them, and drown out the culture that existed there before them.


Which is why the Islamic culture of refusing to shake hands and insisting on keeping other "imported" or "non-native" traditions is considered a big deal in EU. People in Europe still want to keep EU cultures and values. But yet one of our values is allowing people individual freedoms, so then it becomes a balancing act on how to still keep your culture, but at the same time allowing in large numbers of people from other cultures. The key points here is to restrict the immigration, and the ones who do immigrate should integrate into EU cultures and norms.



"Multiculturalism" is a kind of dangerous experiment, as you could wind up with either no culture, someone else's culture, or a completely new culture altogether that nobody had envisioned (ie: Western culture may eat/destroy itself)
"Well, if enough people from a certain culture form a majority in a certain area" you mean like EF and Brown sugar &&&
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Old 18.08.2018, 20:52
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

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"Multiculturalism" is a kind of dangerous experiment, as you could wind up with either no culture, someone else's culture, or a completely new culture altogether that nobody had envisioned (ie: Western culture may eat/destroy itself)
Multiculturalism is OK and even beautiful as long as everyone respects a common set of values, well at least to a certain degree. What I find ridiculous is the conviction that local cultures have to adapt and not the other way around - again, up to reasonable limits.
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Old 19.08.2018, 19:04
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

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Frankly I find that a terrible lack of gratitude for the country that accepts people from different places, no questions asked. I don't understand why would someone want to be in a place where they don't think the local values are compatible with their own.
Same (on a personal level).

But you (the state) can't say "no questions asked" only to be offended by their lack of gratitude, it's one or the other. If you think there's reason to be offended by that lack then there must be a correlating requirement. Good luck measuring gratitude objectively, or at least fairly - I trust you've heard of the Schweizermacher already.

With that said, I think you are talking about two different levels of our society. One is the state with its formal requirements - speaks the language, respects the local laws, and whatnot. The other is individual behavior as a social being - says Grüezi, shakes hands, etc. The latter can't be regulated by the state, it's simply none of government's business.
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Old 19.08.2018, 19:10
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

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Well, if enough people from a certain culture form a majority in a certain area, then they can build an enclave where they can effectively bring their culture with them, and drown out the culture that existed there before them.

Which is why the Islamic culture of refusing to shake hands and insisting on keeping other "imported" or "non-native" traditions is considered a big deal in EU. People in Europe still want to keep EU cultures and values. But yet one of our values is allowing people individual freedoms, so then it becomes a balancing act on how to still keep your culture, but at the same time allowing in large numbers of people from other cultures. The key points here is to restrict the immigration, and the ones who do immigrate should integrate into EU cultures and norms.
I think it's most interesting how you automatically equate "parallel society" to Muslims.

You're in dire need of a visit or two to Zürich Wiedikon, Enge and Wollishofen and check out the parallel society that's been there for multiple generations, and counting.

Hint:
It is indeed a religious group but they're neither Christian nor Muslim.
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Old 20.08.2018, 22:53
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

Immigrants views on the recent car burning

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  #899  
Old 22.08.2018, 10:29
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

Sweden’s Economy Is Getting a Lift From Migrants

Growth is running well above the rest of the EU, testifying to the country’s greater success in integrating newcomers.



https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-from-migrants
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Old 22.08.2018, 11:23
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

Dammit Trev, dont you know this thread is not to discuss whats actually going on in Sweden?

The title is just to give it a veneer of respectability. Its really just a place where the diseased part of EF can come and massage each others egos.

'Lets share stories on how Sweden has become so bad, that Lucifer himself is outsourcing the damned souls to Stockholm now. Reflection of reality not necassary'.
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