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  #981  
Old 22.08.2018, 15:11
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

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Because population change does not immediately impact a countrys ability to sustain its old people. Its an impact that grows slowly, but falls equally slowly.
So you admnit that it is safe for a population to be regressive, providing it doesn't drop too quickly?
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  #982  
Old 22.08.2018, 15:14
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

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Thank you. Finally.

Can you provide some evidence that even a slight majority of 3rd generation immigrants are causing all this trouble'?
Why do I need to prove something I did not state
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  #983  
Old 22.08.2018, 15:15
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

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Remember we are talking a country with growing productivity and fewer people here.

productivity in terms of GDP will increase, but that isnt the same as a governments balance of payments. Those are two very different things, that i would recommend you do some research on.

As I said, there are alternatives to getting rich by creating an underclass to exploit.



There are none so blind as those who refuse to see.

But let's play it your way for once.

The only way for a country to get richer, you believe, is to have hordes of unskilled labour, willing to work for so little that nobody will invest in robots. And what you neglect to say is that when they do reach the famous third generation and start giving back, is that they will no longer be willing to be the underdiogs, so need to be replaced by a new set of people willing to be exploited. And there need to be so many of them that the net population rises every time. Immigrants get old too you know, and turn into OAPs. Google the concept of pyramid scheme or Ponzi scheme. It's been tried before but never created permanent success for all. Actaully, it's been used mostly by thugs. Now extrapolate that thinking several generations. Sooner or later the earth is going to run out of resources. Do you see a problem here? Do you see where your robot-phobia is taking us?
Wrong on basically every point. Well done, you.

No, not hordes. Unskilled labour is as necessary as skilled labour, because skilled labour produces value from the proceeds of unskilled labour. Logical.

Nor will they be 'willing' to be the 'underdiogs' or not. Nobody wants to be the underdog, But guess what, if you're not the top dog, you are the underdog. This doesnt mean you're exploited. There are plenty of people who arent the top dog, but arent exploited. There is a middle ground, genius.

Unskilled labour generally are not 'willing' to work for cheap salaries, they have no choice. They can only take the salaries that are offered. Salaries are offered by bosses who will not pay higher salaries then would make it more expensive to have automation. If the salaries do get that high, they will go for automation instead, which will reduce the job pool completely. In other words, the unskilled labour only has the choice; work for a low salary or dont work at all.

You clearly have no idea of the concept of resource consumption per capita. Over time, if current resources are invested wisely, in clean technologies for example, then the resource consumption per capita will drop. The amount of resources required to maintain a certain population now will be far higher then required to maintain the same population in future.

Good lord.
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  #984  
Old 22.08.2018, 15:17
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

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So you admnit that it is safe for a population to be regressive, providing it doesn't drop too quickly?
Nope. Wrong again.

The best is for a population and its demographic (and therefore the EDR) to be stable in the long term, with old people dying off reliably and consistently, and immigrants propping up a low birth rate.
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  #985  
Old 22.08.2018, 15:19
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

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True, made worse by modern medicine so people live longer hitting EDR.
Ironically, modern medicine is doing more long term damage to the global economy then almost any natural phenomenon.
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  #986  
Old 22.08.2018, 15:27
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

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Nor will they be 'willing' to be the 'underdiogs' or not. Nobody wants to be the underdog, But guess what, if you're not the top dog, you are the underdog. This doesnt mean you're exploited. There are plenty of people who arent the top dog, but arent exploited. There is a middle ground, genius.
Middle class people are underdogs?
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You clearly have no idea of the concept of resource consumption per capita. Over time, if current resources are invested wisely, in clean technologies for example, then the resource consumption per capita will drop. The amount of resources required to maintain a certain population now will be far higher then required to maintain the same population in future.
Can you define far higher?

Food stays the same, surely my laundry machine now uses a little less water than 10 yrs ago, but the amount of water needed to grow my yearly food stays the same.

Electricity, well wind energy is a heavily subsidised hoax. Electrical cars consume less energy once made but in total save little to nothing when taking the build and expected lifetime taken along. Households even consume more and more electricity over the yrs.

How can be established that use of resources will show a drop to a far lower level while maintaining the same level of consumption?
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  #987  
Old 22.08.2018, 15:31
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

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Refugees in the Netherlands have an unemployment rate of 65% after 15 yrs, and majority of the jobs they posses are low skilled. Also the current influx is on average lower educated than the ones that arrived in the 90's/00's I do not see why Sweden would be any different on that.

But surely you will now explain to us how these numbers can be bend.
This graph from here shows a different picture for NL
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  #988  
Old 22.08.2018, 15:33
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

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So wait.

Of those recognised.. (not all whom enter and stay)
Of those who participate in this program.. (not all who are recognised)
Of those who finish the program (not all whom participate)
25% to 35% find a job after 90 days.

Now what I would find interesting is how high is this percentage when we extrapolate it to the entire group of refugees (only the recognised ones for my sake)

You cannot say that a group is successful by pointing out how a group within a group is doing without knowing the size of the smaller group.
In Sweden the integration program for refugees is compulsory, so no smaller group!
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  #989  
Old 22.08.2018, 15:49
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

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Middle class people are underdogs?

Can you define far higher?

Food stays the same, surely my laundry machine now uses a little less water than 10 yrs ago, but the amount of water needed to grow my yearly food stays the same.

Electricity, well wind energy is a heavily subsidised hoax. Electrical cars consume less energy once made but in total save little to nothing when taking the build and expected lifetime taken along. Households even consume more and more electricity over the yrs.

How can be established that use of resources will show a drop to a far lower level while maintaining the same level of consumption?

If you're not the top dog, you are, by definition, the underdog.

Wrong on almost all counts.


The issue is not just consumption level, but the resources required to be invested to support that level of consumption, and the habits of people using those resources.

Food consumption may stay the same or even increase, but technology and evolving viewpoints allows for the same nutritional value to require less resources. Case in point, the rise of vegetarianism and veganism is reducing the need for resource intensive meat farming. People are composting far more, then in the past, and recycling more of their goods. there is significant pressure to reduce non recyclables (eg, plastic).
Electricity generation may not increase (likely it will) but the consumption will decrease. Think of LED bulbs compared to halogen bulbs. Research into farming techniques and selective breeding (and GM) result in crops that make more efficient use of water.

Technology reduces the cost of producing drinkable water, and increases the recycling of water.

Wind energy is not a hoax, but even if it was, there are other more renewable sources of electricity. Solar panels, who's cost is getting lower and lower, for example. Rain bowsers which allow for rainwater to supplement tap water in homes. Double glazing and triple glazing which reduced the energy needed to heat homes. Minergie Systems, which recycle heat and reduce energy requirements for enire buildings.

Considering that LED bubs are so much more efficient then halogen bulbs, and the myriad increases in techonological efficiency, if your house is using more electricity then in the past, you need to consider renovating.

I could go on, but i dont need to.


All of these technologies will be developed in workspaces where skilled people will be assisted by unskilled people. Scientists will have lab techs, who will have cleaners. CEO's will make decisions in workplaces that include receptionists and administrative personnel.


That said, if you're one of these wierdos that believes climate change is a myth and theres nothing wrong with using fossil fuels, then anything goes, really.
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  #990  
Old 22.08.2018, 15:53
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

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This graph from here shows a different picture for NL
You need to learn to interpret what you read.

Those numbers are nowhere the current situation.

Of all refugees arriving in 2015 in the Netherlands who have been approved and got all permits, over 86% is today on welfare.

And yeah... mandatory courses.. LOL, in the Netherlands they are also mandatory , however over the last years only 30% actually succeeded doing so since just like in Sweden there is no punishment for not doing it. So why would they care. Also the refugees in the 90's came from cultures that for some reason where more willing to participate, from the current influx a lot of them simply don't care. Of the Eritreans in the Netherlands (large group on percentage) only 6% has done such course.

Mandatory.... HAHAHAHA
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  #991  
Old 22.08.2018, 15:56
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

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if you're one of these wierdos that believes climate change is a myth and theres nothing wrong with using fossil fuels, then anything goes, really.
Great!

Tom
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  #992  
Old 22.08.2018, 15:58
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

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You need to learn to interpret what you read.

Those numbers are nowhere the current situation.

Of all refugees arriving in 2015 in the Netherlands who have been approved and got all permits, over 86% is today on welfare.

And yeah... mandatory courses.. LOL, in the Netherlands they are also mandatory , however over the last years only 30% actually succeeded doing so since just like in Sweden there is no punishment for not doing it. So why would they care. Also the refugees in the 90's came from cultures that for some reason where more willing to participate, from the current influx a lot of them simply don't care. Of the Eritreans in the Netherlands (large group on percentage) only 6% has done such course.

Mandatory.... HAHAHAHA

So, your response to a genuine source is some made up statistics, teenage acronyms, more made up statistics, some wierd insinuation about cultures in the 90s, followed by a single word and unnecassary capitalisation.


Sounds about right.


By the way, how's the job hunt going, in this wonderful country that accepted you as an immigrant?
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  #993  
Old 22.08.2018, 15:59
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

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If you're not the top dog, you are, by definition, the underdog.
Black is the opposite of white, does not mean the other colours stopped existing.
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That said, if you're one of these wierdos that believes climate change is a myth and theres nothing wrong with using fossil fuels, then anything goes, really.
Bad habit you have, implying how people think about subjects they did not even mention. How about you stay on point and leave the distracting irrelevant nonsense out.
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Old 22.08.2018, 15:59
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

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So, your response to a genuine source is some made up statistics, teenage acronyms, more made up statistics, some wierd insinuation about cultures in the 90s, followed by a single word and unnecassary capitalisation.


Sounds about right.
Are you on drugs?
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Old 22.08.2018, 16:02
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

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Are you on drugs?


Yes, but they were produced using groundbreaking technology, that maximised efficiency and minimised resource consumption.
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  #996  
Old 22.08.2018, 16:04
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

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You need to learn to interpret what you read.

Those numbers are nowhere the current situation.

Of all refugees arriving in 2015 in the Netherlands who have been approved and got all permits, over 86% is today on welfare.

And yeah... mandatory courses.. LOL, in the Netherlands they are also mandatory , however over the last years only 30% actually succeeded doing so since just like in Sweden there is no punishment for not doing it. So why would they care. Also the refugees in the 90's came from cultures that for some reason where more willing to participate, from the current influx a lot of them simply don't care. Of the Eritreans in the Netherlands (large group on percentage) only 6% has done such course.

Mandatory.... HAHAHAHA
Do you have a source?

Tried googling it but came up with nothing. Well nothing that suggested your figures, anyway.

(I'm not on drugs, by the way, and I did take my "zip" of coffee)


EDIT - closest I can find is a Breitbart article (yeah, Breitbart... ) which speaks of 65% unemployed in 2014.

Last edited by Sandgrounder; 22.08.2018 at 16:16.
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  #997  
Old 22.08.2018, 16:05
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

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Black is the opposite of white, does not mean the other colours stopped existing.



Bad habit you have, implying how people think about subjects they did not even mention. How about you stay on point and leave the distracting irrelevant nonsense out.


To be fair, black is not a colour, but the absence of reflected light.
And white is also not technically a colour, but the reflection of all light.


Back to the point, just like black and white are opposites that do not preclude other colours, so the top dog and underdog can be opposites, without precluding other underdogs.


If i never indulged distracting irrelevant nonsense, i wouldnt be conversing with you right now...
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Old 22.08.2018, 16:13
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

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Do you have a source?

Tried googling it but came up with nothing. Well nothing that suggested your figures, anyway.

(I'm not on drugs, by the way, and I did take my "zip" of coffee)
Can you read Dutch?

Article about the mandatory courses https://www.parool.nl/binnenland/vee...niet~a4452642/ quoting official governmental numbers.

About participation on the job market concerning the current influx: https://www.trouw.nl/samenleving/vlu...land~ad49bdd1/
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Old 22.08.2018, 16:18
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

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Can you read Dutch?
I can stick it through google translate. Same as with all the other languages I don't speak.


...or maybe you could just translate the relevant bits?
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Old 22.08.2018, 16:19
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Re: What's Happening to Sweden?

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You need to learn to interpret what you read.

Those numbers are nowhere the current situation.

Of all refugees arriving in 2015 in the Netherlands who have been approved and got all permits, over 86% is today on welfare.

And yeah... mandatory courses.. LOL, in the Netherlands they are also mandatory , however over the last years only 30% actually succeeded doing so since just like in Sweden there is no punishment for not doing it. So why would they care. Also the refugees in the 90's came from cultures that for some reason where more willing to participate, from the current influx a lot of them simply don't care. Of the Eritreans in the Netherlands (large group on percentage) only 6% has done such course.

Mandatory.... HAHAHAHA
What is your reason for quoting NL failures to enforce mandatory courses in a thread about Sweden?

I am also not on drugs but then I have not visited a NL coffee shop for some time!
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