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  #61  
Old 03.03.2018, 17:52
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Re: Brexit (and other UK stuff) information roadshow in Swizterland

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Do you have a link? In order to operate legally I have to (and do) have a min. sole tradership which, according to the Greeks (not that they always have correct information), is only possible with an EU passport. As far as I have found to date, the Swiss bilaterals don't cover services, only employment and goods? Under article 32 of the draft EU thing this week, UK citizens will be prohibited from providing services on EU member state territories or to persons established in EU member states. But of course, the place of supply rules also apply...
I don't know for sure the rules for Greece, however the rules for Malta are Identical for Swiss / EU citizens, so I would be very surprised as both are EU countries.
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  #62  
Old 04.03.2018, 17:34
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Re: Brexit (and other UK stuff) information roadshow in Swizterland

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I don't know for sure the rules for Greece, however the rules for Malta are Identical for Swiss / EU citizens, so I would be very surprised as both are EU countries.
Rules on what? Services aren't part of the Bilaterale 2.
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  #63  
Old 04.03.2018, 18:11
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Re: Brexit (and other UK stuff) information roadshow in Swizterland

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Rules on what? Services aren't part of the Bilaterale 2.
If you move under free movement with a Swiss passport & set up a business your not providing a service under any Bilaterale agreement
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  #64  
Old 04.03.2018, 21:42
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Re: Brexit (and other UK stuff) information roadshow in Swizterland

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If you move under free movement with a Swiss passport & set up a business your not providing a service under any Bilaterale agreement
... provided your customers are locals/domestic. A Swiss shop serving custormers in Greece is a different thing.
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  #65  
Old 04.03.2018, 22:13
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Re: Brexit (and other UK stuff) information roadshow in Swizterland

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... provided your customers are locals/domestic. A Swiss shop serving custormers in Greece is a different thing.
The person concerned seems to have closed down his ZH base (offered the premises to rent on the forum) & was talking about boats in Greece, so I would assume anyone using the boats would be in Greece rather than Switzerland. Any taxable supply would be subject to Greek VAT etc, I can't see what CH has to do with this.
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  #66  
Old 05.03.2018, 01:58
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Re: Brexit (and other UK stuff) information roadshow in Swizterland

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The person concerned seems to have closed down his ZH base (offered the premises to rent on the forum) & was talking about boats in Greece, so I would assume anyone using the boats would be in Greece rather than Switzerland. Any taxable supply would be subject to Greek VAT etc, I can't see what CH has to do with this.
See #60.
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  #67  
Old 05.03.2018, 11:17
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Re: Brexit (and other UK stuff) information roadshow in Swizterland

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See #60.
See post 58 where he states he has a Swiss passport. So what your saying is that Swiss people don't have free movement after all?

Stelios has both EU & British passports so Easyjet can be either a British or EU majority owned airline.
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  #68  
Old 05.03.2018, 12:29
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Re: Brexit (and other UK stuff) information roadshow in Swizterland

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The person concerned seems to have closed down his ZH base (offered the premises to rent on the forum) & was talking about boats in Greece, so I would assume anyone using the boats would be in Greece rather than Switzerland. Any taxable supply would be subject to Greek VAT etc, I can't see what CH has to do with this.
Just to clarify, in case anyone stumbles on this and is led astray by your misunderstanding, we gave up those particular premises because they are too big for us now. I continue to run theory courses in Switzerland and practicals on the open sea.

I am a CH/GB citizen resident in CH delivering services in GR to citizens of all sorts of nationalities, both in person under my CH company and as bareboat charter under the GR self-employment.

The draft published last week contains the following:

Article 22 section 3
"Employed frontier workers shall retain the rights they enjoyed as workers in the State or States of work, and the right to enter and exit that State in accordance with Article 13."

Article 23 section 2
"Self-employed frontier workers shall have the same rights as employed frontier workers, without prejudice to Article 32 concerning the scope of rights."

Article 32
"In respect of United Kingdom nationals and their family members, the rights provided for by this Part shall not include further free movement to the territory of another Member State, the right of establishment in the territory of another Member State, or the right to provide services on the territory of another Member State or to persons established in other Member States."

I would love clarification of these clauses as it seems to me, as a lay person, that article 23 section 2 and article 32 are contradictory - how can a self-employed frontier worker have the rights of employed frontier workers if they are banned from providing services?

The draft affects me under my GB passport, but I can't find anything to see how I might be affected under my CH passport - everything I've googled to do with the CH bilaterals refer to working in CH
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  #69  
Old 05.03.2018, 12:32
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Re: Brexit (and other UK stuff) information roadshow in Swizterland

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So what your saying is that Swiss people don't have free movement after all?
This is precisely the question to which I can't find the answer.
Plus, it's Greece and Greece has internal laws relating to business ownership in general and the chartering of pleasure craft in particular. It may be that I would be able to work for a Greek company under FOM but not own one or provide services - but as I said, I can't seem to find that information.

Oh, and it's "she" btw

ETA: going to the horse's mouth, it looks like we're fine for 90 days' personal service provision per annum from a bilateral point of view. Beyond that, I don't know

Last edited by eng_ch; 05.03.2018 at 12:51.
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  #70  
Old 05.03.2018, 13:04
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Re: Brexit (and other UK stuff) information roadshow in Swizterland

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ETA: going to the horse's mouth, it looks like we're fine for 90 days' personal service provision per annum from a bilateral point of view. Beyond that, I don't know
You probably have to register an address & pay taxes locally, which is how it works if you provide services in CH for up to 90 days a year. For up to 8 or possibly 9 days in a year, no registration is required.
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  #71  
Old 05.03.2018, 13:42
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Re: Brexit (and other UK stuff) information roadshow in Swizterland

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ETA: going to the horse's mouth, it looks like we're fine for 90 days' personal service provision per annum from a bilateral point of view. Beyond that, I don't know
It might be worth contacting the people at greeka.com and picking their brains on the issue from the standpoint of a prospective advertiser. Even if you have no desire to advertise with them, they could point you in the right direction for English speaking local tax experts. https://www.greeka.com/add-business.htm

As my fluent Greek speaking OH spent too long last summer trying to extricate himself from paying income tax in Greece, it's not a system that you want to get embroiled in yourself, if you can avoid it. I've dealt with Greeka in the UK, and they were advertising for English speaking staff last summer, so they might just become a valid source of contact for you.
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  #72  
Old 05.03.2018, 15:20
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Re: Brexit (and other UK stuff) information roadshow in Swizterland

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You probably have to register an address & pay taxes locally, which is how it works if you provide services in CH for up to 90 days a year. For up to 8 or possibly 9 days in a year, no registration is required.
That's already in place with a sole tradership, innit? The question will be whether I'll be permitted to continue ownership of that sole tradership
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  #73  
Old 05.03.2018, 15:24
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Re: Brexit (and other UK stuff) information roadshow in Swizterland

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It might be worth contacting the people at greeka.com and picking their brains on the issue from the standpoint of a prospective advertiser. Even if you have no desire to advertise with them, they could point you in the right direction for English speaking local tax experts. https://www.greeka.com/add-business.htm

As my fluent Greek speaking OH spent too long last summer trying to extricate himself from paying income tax in Greece, it's not a system that you want to get embroiled in yourself, if you can avoid it. I've dealt with Greeka in the UK, and they were advertising for English speaking staff last summer, so they might just become a valid source of contact for you.
Thanks for the link, looks like one worth pursuing in more than one way. Much appreciated
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  #74  
Old 05.03.2018, 17:53
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Re: Brexit (and other UK stuff) information roadshow in Swizterland

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That's already in place with a sole tradership, innit? The question will be whether I'll be permitted to continue ownership of that sole tradership
My understanding is, as a Swiss national you will. I can't believe that so many people are paying for a Red passport if it's really that useless.
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Old 05.03.2018, 19:56
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Re: Brexit (and other UK stuff) information roadshow in Swizterland

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I would love clarification of these clauses as it seems to me, as a lay person, that article 23 section 2 and article 32 are contradictory - how can a self-employed frontier worker have the rights of employed frontier workers if they are banned from providing services?

The draft affects me under my GB passport, but I can't find anything to see how I might be affected under my CH passport - everything I've googled to do with the CH bilaterals refer to working in CH
Articles 22+23 say the rights you acquired and currently hold will persist beyond Brexit, though they will remain limited to the Member State(s) they already apply to ("shall retain the rights"). Article 32 says you can no longer acquire the same or other rights in other EU member states ("... of another Member State").

In short and according to the draft, as UK citizen you will keep holding the rights you hold at the time of Brexit but you can no longer acquire any additional rights, neither in the EU member country you are holding rights nor in any other EU member state.
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Old 05.03.2018, 20:32
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Re: Brexit (and other UK stuff) information roadshow in Swizterland

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See post 58 where he states he has a Swiss passport. So what your saying is that Swiss people don't have free movement after all?

Stelios has both EU & British passports so Easyjet can be either a British or EU majority owned airline.
Providing crossborder services is distinct from FMOP (though they may overlap).
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  #77  
Old 05.03.2018, 22:25
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Re: Brexit (and other UK stuff) information roadshow in Swizterland

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Thanks for the link, looks like one worth pursuing in more than one way. Much appreciated
Another aspect that you may want to pay attention to as it develops, to see if it causes any changes to Switzerland's relationship with the EU...

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Bern also spelled out for the first time just what it wants under a treaty that would replace the patchwork of 120 bilateral accords that now govern ties.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-s...-idUSKBN1GH27G
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  #78  
Old 06.03.2018, 11:50
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Re: Brexit (and other UK stuff) information roadshow in Swizterland

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Articles 22+23 say the rights you acquired and currently hold will persist beyond Brexit, though they will remain limited to the Member State(s) they already apply to ("shall retain the rights"). Article 32 says you can no longer acquire the same or other rights in other EU member states ("... of another Member State").
So you think the word "further" applies to all the clauses in the sentence? (with my translator's hat on, I would interpret "another" as meaning other than your state of residence or citizenship). I hope you're right.
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Old 06.03.2018, 12:30
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Re: Brexit (and other UK stuff) information roadshow in Swizterland

I understand it as follows, but keep in mind I'm not a native English speaker:
In respect of United Kingdom nationals and their family members, the rights provided for by this Part shall not include
- further free movement to the territory of another Member State
[thus you keep free movement rights within a state you already have the right for]
- the right of establishment in the territory of another Member State
- the right to provide services on the territory of another Member State or to persons established in other Member States
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Old 06.03.2018, 12:41
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Re: Brexit (and other UK stuff) information roadshow in Swizterland

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I understand it as follows, but keep in mind I'm not a native English speaker:
In respect of United Kingdom nationals and their family members, the rights provided for by this Part shall not include
- further free movement to the territory of another Member State
[thus you keep free movement rights within a state you already have the right for]
- the right of establishment in the territory of another Member State
- the right to provide services on the territory of another Member State or to persons established in other Member States
Yes, from the structure of the clause, that is how I also would rewrite it as a native English speaker. However that means:

"In respect of United Kingdom nationals and their family members, the rights provided for by this Part shall not include ... the right to provide services on the territory of another Member State or to persons established in other Member States"

Which means UK nationals can provide services ONLY to locals in the UK or the member state in which they are living; not to people in any other member state, and not to citizens or residents of other member states who might be visiting the member state in which you are living.

That, by my understanding, is a prohibition beyond that applied to third country nationals and is very disappointing if the EU is supposed to be positioning itself as the defender of citizens' rights.

However, I don't know what the source language of the draft is, so I don't know whether there is something lost in translation, poorly drafted in the first place or deliberately contradictory and ambiguous
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