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Old 08.03.2018, 15:33
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Re: Is S. Africa planning to follow Zimbabwe and destroy its economy?

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Sometimes it is not just ownership, but other factors as well, e.g. large scale farms can afford harvesters and so on. A smaller ones would need to organize in sort of cooperatives to pool the machines.
Same about access to credit, enough leverage to sell to the middlemen at a fair price (so that the middlemen and further processing doesn't cream off all the profit). All these structures are now in place relatively large farms.

In SA the unemployment is about 26%. I think to some extent it might be as underdeveloped country as a former communist countries; there the individual small plots of land served an important role in supplanting families food security and as a small income source. Basically families would do subsistence farming and also any other other (manufacturing, office or service job if available).

So a land redistribution could help more people to live in the mode subsistence farming until the country develops more so that those on a salary would no longer need to supplant their income with food from a subsistence farming. And, BTW, individual farmers are probably much better at creating healthy communities than unattached migrant workers.

Yes - but would those living in the cites really move out into the country to live in subsistence-farming, even if they got the land for free?

As said, having a garden-plot is nice and all - as a hobby. As soon as you have to make a living from it, it becomes something completely different.
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Old 08.03.2018, 16:10
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Re: Is S. Africa planning to follow Zimbabwe and destroy its economy?

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Yes - but would those living in the cites really move out into the country to live in subsistence-farming, even if they got the land for free?

As said, having a garden-plot is nice and all - as a hobby. As soon as you have to make a living from it, it becomes something completely different.
So, about 10-15 millions live in hunger in high crime slums (a quarter of households is hunger striken), while the country is exporting cash crops at the same time.
It would certainly be more beneficial to have overall somewhat less yield but less hunger as well.
Latifundia owners have no incentive to feed their own country men.
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Old 08.03.2018, 17:33
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Re: Is S. Africa planning to follow Zimbabwe and destroy its economy?

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So, about 10-15 millions live in hunger in high crime slums (a quarter of households is hunger striken), while the country is exporting cash crops at the same time.
It would certainly be more beneficial to have overall somewhat less yield but less hunger as well.
Latifundia owners have no incentive to feed their own country men.
Great idea moving people to the land to generate their own food. I wonder why it wasn't tried before (Or perhaps it was ?)
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Old 08.03.2018, 18:14
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Re: Is S. Africa planning to follow Zimbabwe and destroy its economy?

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Great idea moving people to the land to generate their own food. I wonder why it wasn't tried before (Or perhaps it was ?)
I don't know why the idea of forcing people to do it.
The townships unemployment is about 50%, and some grass roots local farming projects already there. I'm quite sure quite a few persons would leave the crime ridden slums if they had access to a plot of arable land.
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Old 08.03.2018, 18:45
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Re: Is S. Africa planning to follow Zimbabwe and destroy its economy?

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I don't know why the idea of forcing people to do it.
The townships unemployment is about 50%, and some grass roots local farming projects already there. I'm quite sure quite a few persons would leave the crime ridden slums if they had access to a plot of arable land.
So long as it remains arable

A report published last month by the Montpellier Panel – an eminent group of agriculture, ecology and trade experts from Africa and Europe – says about 65 percent of Africa’s arable land is too damaged to sustain viable food production.
Mostly damaged by poor farming methods.

Source

It is some sort of strange simplistic Victorian idea that you can give poor people arable land and they will be able to feed themselves.
Farming is a skilled and expensive business.
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Old 08.03.2018, 18:54
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Re: Is S. Africa planning to follow Zimbabwe and destroy its economy?

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So, about 10-15 millions live in hunger in high crime slums (a quarter of households is hunger striken), while the country is exporting cash crops at the same time.
It would certainly be more beneficial to have overall somewhat less yield but less hunger as well.
Latifundia owners have no incentive to feed their own country men.
If the country is exporting cash crops but still has hunger, maybe the problem is that profits are not being shared. This is a problem of solidairity, not of the profits themselves..

Reducing the efficiency and profitability of farms is not the solution, unless you subscribe to the view that we can only be truly equal if we are all equally poor.

It's a bit like saying, the banks on Zürich's Bahnhofstrasse make huge profits, but there are homeless on the street outside, so let's tell the homeless to run and manage the bank. Surely that's not solving a problem but creating an even bigger one.
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Old 08.03.2018, 19:02
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Re: Is S. Africa planning to follow Zimbabwe and destroy its economy?

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So long as it remains arable

A report published last month by the Montpellier Panel – an eminent group of agriculture, ecology and trade experts from Africa and Europe – says about 65 percent of Africa’s arable land is too damaged to sustain viable food production.
Mostly damaged by poor farming methods.
Actually the fertility of chunks of Africa is often overstated. A semi-arid climate is not naturally supportive of bountiful produce, but needs to be made productive by things such as irrigation and understanding of soil biology, which require time, money and skill. If you stop doing that, itthe land returns to being wjhat it was before, which is semi-arid scrubland, pretty quickly.
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Old 08.03.2018, 19:15
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Re: Is S. Africa planning to follow Zimbabwe and destroy its economy?

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If the country is exporting cash crops but still has hunger, maybe the problem is that profits are not being shared. This is a problem of solidairity, not of the profits themselves..

Reducing the efficiency and profitability of farms is not the solution, unless you subscribe to the view that we can only be truly equal if we are all equally poor.

It's a bit like saying, the banks on Zürich's Bahnhofstrasse make huge profits, but there are homeless on the street outside, so let's tell the homeless to run and manage the bank. Surely that's not solving a problem but creating an even bigger one.
I agree
Possibly a slightly better solution would be to tax farmers 10% of their crops and distribute that to the poor.

At least that way you stand a chance of maintaining the SA level of food production, maintaining the arable soil plus the poor get some food; possibly as much as their subsistence farming could produce.

Unfortunately in an endemically corrupt state like SA the chances of such a scheme actually delivering food to the poor are slight.
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Old 08.03.2018, 19:20
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Re: Is S. Africa planning to follow Zimbabwe and destroy its economy?

A friend of mine who went to SA recently said there are lost of guest workers from places like Mocambique. They're picking crops and waiting tables in restaurants. It seems to me that something is seriously wrong if a country that has such a high unemployment rate needs to turn to migrant labour on such a scale to get things done.

Maybe, even if you have to pay people a bit more, it is still cheaper overall than handouts.
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Old 08.03.2018, 19:44
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Re: Is S. Africa planning to follow Zimbabwe and destroy its economy?

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A friend of mine who went to SA recently said there are lost of guest workers from places like Mocambique. They're picking crops and waiting tables in restaurants. It seems to me that something is seriously wrong if a country that has such a high unemployment rate needs to turn to migrant labour on such a scale to get things done.

Maybe, even if you have to pay people a bit more, it is still cheaper overall than handouts.
Seems to be more and more the normal situation.

I have seen newspaper reports that US companies who suffered ICE raids and consequently had many illegal immigrants taken away then had problems to find US citizen replacements even with higher salaries than average.

There are jobs that only immigrants are prepared to do even with higher salaries, look at Trump's three wives (joke!)
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Old 08.03.2018, 19:47
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Re: Is S. Africa planning to follow Zimbabwe and destroy its economy?

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A friend of mine who went to SA recently said there are lost of guest workers from places like Mocambique. They're picking crops and waiting tables in restaurants. It seems to me that something is seriously wrong if a country that has such a high unemployment rate needs to turn to migrant labour on such a scale to get things done.

Maybe, even if you have to pay people a bit more, it is still cheaper overall than handouts.
Part of the problem is also that the work is not where the people are, people do not like to be pulled away from their community and their friends to work in another part of the country on a farm for what likely is to be considered low payment. What would it cost them overall, and what would they gain? They clearly currently have food and a house, how much more would they be able to pay from a salary which they would get from working on the fields? If it would be worth it for them to do such, I would think that a large group already would do so. But clearly there is not enough to gain for them to do so.

In the Netherlands they experimented with projects for unemployed people to reduce unemployment and reducing the amount of polish (among others) working now on the fields and in the greenhouses. Those projects became a huge disaster and up to today the most spoken language in greenhouses in the Netherlands is polish. One project I am aware of started out with 600 people, and ended with only 5 people continuing to do the work, and unlike South Africa they did not have to move home or anything of such.
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Old 08.03.2018, 20:00
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Re: Is S. Africa planning to follow Zimbabwe and destroy its economy?

If any project involves moving home, that puts transport costs (I mean, in an individual's or family's budget) up. This is because the family networks are strong, so one has to travel to see (and help) the other part of the family. For the poor, the costs of travel are often a significant impedement to gaining access to education, employment or land which isn't already right there where one already lives.
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Old 08.03.2018, 20:45
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Re: Is S. Africa planning to follow Zimbabwe and destroy its economy?

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I don't know why the idea of forcing people to do it.
The townships unemployment is about 50%, and some grass roots local farming projects already there. I'm quite sure quite a few persons would leave the crime ridden slums if they had access to a plot of arable land.
I didn't say they would be forced. do you have any data from previous similar experiments where this worked ?

subsistence farming is hard and prone to failures - even Slums are a better option. without modern technology & financial backing agriculture can't succeed.
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Old 08.03.2018, 20:55
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Re: Is S. Africa planning to follow Zimbabwe and destroy its economy?

Part of the problem is that "farm" is a pretty generic term that covers many different things. There are the larger farms that produce tons of items both for export and domestic consumption. Those would probably be safe(r) than a small fry. The winelands and orchards of the Western Cape come to mind.

There thousands of smaller holdings of a hectare or ten, where people grow their own food and also make products for the local farm stall. Some also supply local businesses such as butchers, bakers, and restaurants. Many of these smaller holdings are little B&Bs. Farm stalls and little B&Bs are hugely popular with tourists. What happens to those if the land/business is appropriated by someone who has no clue what they are doing, and there's no compensation?

I would not be surprised to see an uptick in the number of applications to change the tax status of properties. If you're classed as a farm for tax purposes, you're probably more of a target for this kind of initiative than if you're taxed as a regular house with a bit of land.
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Old 09.03.2018, 12:30
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Re: Is S. Africa planning to follow Zimbabwe and destroy its economy?

An interesting article which also shows the flipside of the coin. Land reform does need to occur, but the key is how it is done. Both sides up to now have made this process extremely difficult. I just hope this upcoming review process results in some sort of middle ground where land redistribution can occur in the right way. CR has been quite vocal and his comments do imply that that is the goal. SA has a real chance of showing how a process like this can be done right.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.za/wilm...us_a_23380342/
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Old 09.03.2018, 15:14
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Re: Is S. Africa planning to follow Zimbabwe and destroy its economy?

The debate about expropriation is not only about farm land. The City of Johannesburg is considering expropriation of inner-city buildings, namely those which have been "hijacked" and become semi-slums controlled by drug gangsters.

This article, from mid-2017, explains:
https://www.timeslive.co.za/news/sou...ng-about-them/

Some can be returned to their rightful owners. Other owners, however, have given up as the costs of restoring the hijacked building to liveable conditions would be too high. Where such owners cannot be traced, the Johannesburg municipality is seeking to expropriate the buildings and fix them up (or destroy and re-build) to provide affordable accommodation.

To be clear, this does not apply to the whole of the Johannesburg inner city, where much of the infrastructure is up and running, functioning well. In between, there are such troubled spots.
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Old 09.03.2018, 20:04
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Re: Is South Africa planning to follow Zimbabwe and destroy its economy?

Same for District 7 in CT where all the coloureds and blacks were thrown out and sent to the flatland deserts to the East of town without any infrastructure.

And magnificent Bo-Kaap- the Cape Malay colourful district - is being takent over by trendy B&Bs and AirBnB and the Cape Malays unable to remain for finanical reasons. Apartheid may have gone- but in reality- same old, same old ..
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Old 09.03.2018, 20:35
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Re: Is S. Africa planning to follow Zimbabwe and destroy its economy?

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An interesting article which also shows the flipside of the coin. Land reform does need to occur, but the key is how it is done. Both sides up to now have made this process extremely difficult. I just hope this upcoming review process results in some sort of middle ground where land redistribution can occur in the right way. CR has been quite vocal and his comments do imply that that is the goal. SA has a real chance of showing how a process like this can be done right.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.za/wilm...us_a_23380342/
As I posted before farming is an expensive business. You need extensive funds to buy seeds, fertiliser, crop protection products, water, fuel for farm vehicles etc. before you harvest your crop and get money.

The South African Govt. does not have the money to subsidise poor "farmers" and anyway the risk of unskilled farmers having crop failure and being unable to pay back prevents such subsidies.

Then there is the question of training people to be farmers, there are good SA agriculture training academies like here but they do not have the capacity to train millions plus their entry requirements are high.

You give farm land to uneducated untrained people who do not have the funds to farm and you will have a disaster as has been proven over and over again.

They do not need incentives, they need training and funding.
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Old 09.03.2018, 21:25
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Re: Is S. Africa planning to follow Zimbabwe and destroy its economy?

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You give farm land to uneducated untrained people who do not have the funds to farm and you will have a disaster as has been proven over and over again.
As https://www.englishforum.ch/2920017-post77.html this illustrates, even educated, trained people who do not have the funds to farm can be live out a disaster, too.
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Old 09.03.2018, 22:30
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Re: Is S. Africa planning to follow Zimbabwe and destroy its economy?

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As https://www.englishforum.ch/2920017-post77.html this illustrates, even educated, trained people who do not have the funds to farm can be live out a disaster, too.
True but if you start distributing arable land to only educated, trained people then you have completely given up on the idea of sharing the land with the "deserving poor" or the original black inhabitants or whatever.
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