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  #141  
Old 02.09.2018, 15:32
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Re: Is South Africa planning to follow Zimbabwe and destroy its economy?

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Being South African is, at this point in history, a worrying thing.
You've escaped, but do you have friends and family back there who are not so lucky? I'm genuinely insterested in what you saw for yourself, while you were there for those 15 months. And in understanding what the people you know there experience, from day to day.
That is lovely, doropfiz. With all due respect, if the previous user is what they claim to be (and not a troll....a real possibility unfortunately) and truly holds these views, he or she is in extreme minority on this thread or forum, and frankly I don't see the point of arguing their point.

For me personally it is more than clear that things are not as white and black and evil vs. Good as people here believe, but it takes some serious reflection and people are too quick to let the world know they have a strong opinion on everything, including things they personally never witnessed.

I'd rather spare everyone from arguing here while in extreme minority.
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  #142  
Old 02.09.2018, 16:34
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Re: Is South Africa planning to follow Zimbabwe and destroy its economy?

Certainly there are murders of white farmers but it is very difficult to get accurate statistics. If someone is murdered on a farm they are not necessarily the farmer, they could be farmers, family members, guests or workers; the official figures do not tell us which.

According to the SA police such murders are at the lowest for 20 years, see graph.

Politicians must please their voters so are under pressure to redistribute farm land although they know most people who are given land are either unable or not interested to actually farm their land.

One of the country’s largest tea plantations, formerly run by Lipton Teas international, has totally collapsed into weeds after less than ten years in black hands with 2,000 job losses,source.

The future looks grim, politicians will continue land redistribution, agricultural output will fall and the economy will continue to decline.

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  #143  
Old 02.09.2018, 18:22
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Re: Is South Africa planning to follow Zimbabwe and destroy its economy?

I'm not sure I can trust the official statistics at this point. Sadly.
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  #144  
Old 02.09.2018, 18:23
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Re: Is South Africa planning to follow Zimbabwe and destroy its economy?

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Oh, yes, greenmount, I also don't seek an argument about it here (or anywhere). My questions above were not intended to lead into a social or political debate.

I am, though, genuinely interested in anyone's personal experiences, and reports from their friends and family in South Africa, within the past year or two.

I'd appreciate it if those who've visited or lived in South Africa in recent times, or who know people who are there now, would write about what they saw and heard, perhaps along the lines of my question in Post 137 above.
Because it's you I'll make a few comments,but I could write a book.
My intention was to retire there,but I chose Thailand instead, as I have the
financial means, and the anti white racial rhetoric from the ANC and EFF is just too intense.I stayed near Durban for 12 months and then JHB for 3 months.
I saw all South Africans living in maximum security prisons they call home.
In the more affluent areas you have security companies patrolling the suburbs 24/7 with firearms.
In the malls etc., I saw the demographic employee ratio at around 99% Indian and Black,which proves that the exclusion of whites from the workforce via affirmative action has worked very well.
I saw whites begging at the traffic robots and was also approached in malls for money by whites unable to get jobs.
Generally I felt unsafe even though I stayed in an affluent suburb.
I would say that at present it's still not a bad place to live, as the supermarkets are well stocked and it's still relatively cheap to live there,but this can change very quickly.
I was actually in Zimbabwe when things unraveled there.Empty supermarket shelves and people queuing for a loaf of bread.Got ugly very quickly.

I never had a car,so I used Uber. In Pretoria,near the Thai embassy,I witnessed an Uber driver's car smashed up by normal taxi drivers using tyre irons.Ongoing violent taxi wars. I felt very unsafe in the area.
I never went to Cape Town,but the Western Cape is still managed by whites and coloureds.,so I think the experience there is less intense. Although there are some areas plagued by gang violence ,particularly in the coloured areas. Odile would be able to comment on that better than I can.
It's a large country, so you read about large trucks being hijacked on the highways by putting boulders in the road,and an entire black village claiming it's contents,and simply carrying the cargo away.
Bizarre place.
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  #145  
Old 02.09.2018, 19:15
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Re: Is South Africa planning to follow Zimbabwe and destroy its economy?

Cape Town is indeed VERY different to JBurg!

No violence in coloured areas in CT, but in black shanty towns yes- extreme poverty, hopelessness, injustice and lack of education do cause violence, tragically.

Cape Town is divided in very distinct areas - according to 'class', and colour, still today - with 'coloured' areas as buffer zones between plush white areas and black townships - often just divided by a road. It is incredibly striking.

So called 'coloureds', Cape Malays mostly- have done very well since apartheid and become very succesful, a new middle class.
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  #146  
Old 03.09.2018, 07:03
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Re: Is South Africa planning to follow Zimbabwe and destroy its economy?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=a_bDc7FfItk

Here is the documentary alluded to by 3wishes. It's free by the way and I can confirm that this is the current situation in South Africa.
Unspeakable murders of white farmers, including the boiling alive of white farmer children.
Break out the popcorn and enjoy,if you can.
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  #147  
Old 03.09.2018, 11:36
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Re: Is South Africa planning to follow Zimbabwe and destroy its economy?

I think it is really important to somehow post balanced opinions. So I will post my experience.



I left South Africa in 2005/6 at the age of 24ish. I did not leave because of not being able to find a job or because I was running away. I left because I was also lucky enough to have a European passport, and for the career I wanted to get into, Europe made more sense and was an interesting prospect.



We have a house back in SA, which I rent out. As mentioned previously, am I worried about the land appropriation issue and indeed all the other issues in SA? Of course yes. But I also like to think that they are "solvable" or at least can be worked on, and are not vastly different from other Emerging economies, with a few added dimensions of course.


I am still in very close contact with many of my High School friends. I see them every year when we go back and also I am in constant communication with them. What do they say? Well, mixed, as is to be expected. But, the majority are still living in SA, and are "relatively" happy. Granted there are 2 things to remember, most of my friends are well educated and thus are in good jobs (Lawyers, Doctors, Financial Services etc.). Secondly, most of my friends are in either Joburg, Cape Town or Mbombela. As a result, they earn well and/or are in areas where there are less problems. But, I do know for a fact that the odd few who are not so lucky in terms of work, i.e. working at minimum wage or are unemployed, are not so lucky. But then isn't this the same the world over? Granted the BEE issue does put an added dimension of difficulty into the employment area. But then again, South Africa has a huge unemployment rate, regardless of colour.



So, the point I am trying to make is. Is South Africa doomed? No. Is South Africa gonna succeed? Also No. But the real answer is, I have no clue, and nobody does. But a negative attitude will not help it succeed, but will definitely help it fail. Also, jumping to conclusions before the fact/reality will not help SA either. At the moment, the huge amount of noise around land appropriation is for the most part untrue. The reason I say this is because nothing has been decided yet and also we are going into an election year, which always results in massive amounts of rumours, non truths, empty promises etc. Yes, we have Zim as an example of what can go wrong, but let's first wait and see if SA can cut its own path.


I for one hope it will succeed because I do plan on going back one day and also contributing to its success. I do that already by remaining invested and also trying to to give a balanced view. South Africa has huge problems, but so do many other countries.
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  #148  
Old 03.09.2018, 11:44
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Re: Is South Africa planning to follow Zimbabwe and destroy its economy?

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=a_bDc7FfItk

Here is the documentary alluded to by 3wishes. It's free by the way and I can confirm that this is the current situation in South Africa.
Unspeakable murders of white farmers, including the boiling alive of white farmer children.
Break out the popcorn and enjoy,if you can.
But what has this and your other posts to do with the topic of this thread?
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Old 03.09.2018, 13:46
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Re: Is South Africa planning to follow Zimbabwe and destroy its economy?

Centuries of injustice, mass murders, genocide even (as in Namibia), cruelty, slavery, rape and worse ... and lands taken from the natives, rarely lead to peace and justice at the other end - especially when after such a struggle against a terrible regime, in this case apartheid- leads to little or no change in reality. Go and see what it is like - just drive from the airport to CT - and see the reality of living on the Cape Flats even today. Losing everything means nothing to those who have never had any of it- and can see they never will.

As said, most black africans with decent jobs in CT are from Zimbabwe, not local.
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  #150  
Old 03.09.2018, 13:50
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Re: Is South Africa planning to follow Zimbabwe and destroy its economy?

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But what has this and your other posts to do with the topic of this thread?
That documentary is about Suidlanders.

This article explains something of their activity during the half-year up till March 2018.
https://mg.co.za/article/2018-03-23-...s-swart-gevaar
Extract:
“Suidlanders are working with some people to form a global forum for nationalists. This is a big thing that terrifies the powers that be,” he [Roche, the spokesperson of Suidlanders] said.
He claimed the data drives that he sent home via UPS had been confiscated by the state, before declaring that the Suidlanders are “at the heart” of this global nationalist forum, which will convene for the first time later this year.
Roche this week said the forum would meet in June, and that he is working with lawyer William Johnson from the American Freedom Party, formerly known as the American Third Position.
According to the Southern Poverty Law Centre (SPLC), in 1985, Johnson proposed a constitutional amendment that would revoke the American citizenship of every non-white inhabitant of the US.
As such, it sounds to me as if they are one of the scary forces in South Africa.
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  #151  
Old 03.09.2018, 14:01
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Re: Is South Africa planning to follow Zimbabwe and destroy its economy?

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.. most black africans with decent jobs in CT are from Zimbabwe, not local.
I visited Durban last year, and did not find that to be the case there. Yes, there are many immigrants from Zimbabwe, Mozambique , Nigeria and Malawi. Many of those, as I understood, do not have permits and work illegally, but very hard. Their jobs are not really "decent" in the sense you mean it. The serious jobs with reliable monthly salaries, both lower and higher levels, were mostly held by South Africans. Of course, I say this as a broad tendency, and not absolutely.

As an example: I met an elderly white heterosexual couple, who lets a young Mozambican man live in an outhouse/shed in a corner of the yard around their house. He is very glad to stay rent-free, and in exchange for that does the gardening, and is happy to help them lift and carry things they can no longer manage. He is alert to the dogs' barking, which could mean danger from thieves, and the couple is grateful that he stays there and they all feel it is a win-win situation. As to the couple's adult children. They tried to help him get proper papers, but it is an uphill beaurocratic struggle with both Governments.
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  #152  
Old 03.09.2018, 14:11
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Re: Is South Africa planning to follow Zimbabwe and destroy its economy?

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a struggle against a terrible regime, in this case apartheid- leads to little or no change in reality.
Without any doubt, the injustice was, and is abominable and terrible. However, some things have changed.

I listened to a Zulu man of about 60, who told me about his lack of schooling, since his parents hadn't had the money for the fees (at that time, the school-fees for white children were, in proportion to their parents' earnings, a fraction of what black parents would have had to pay) and how he had worked as a gardener from the age of about 10, and often been hungry, and always afraid of the police. Having set out some of that, he said: "When my son was in primary school, he helped me to learn what I needed to get a driver's licence. I got a job as a driver, I can pay for our home and food, and now he is at university. He's going to be a lawyer. My parents could never have dreamed that such a thing would be possible, for us, as black people. We knew that Mandela was a lawyer, but he was lucky to go to the mission school. Now, lots of families are like mine."
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Old 03.09.2018, 14:23
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Re: Is South Africa planning to follow Zimbabwe and destroy its economy?

Oh of course there are wonderful stories - but they are, sadly, very much the exception rather than the rule.

Out of all the restaurant and Hôtel staff we met during our last 3 week there, in several locations around the Cape Province- only one was from the Cape Flats.
In our wonderful estate in Franschhoek - he said he was very lucky, the owners had picked him and sponsored him because he was so bright at school. He said it was very rare to get such a chance when you are born and bred in Cape Flats. (he was not a cleaner or labourer, but the assistant manager to the owners).

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  #154  
Old 03.09.2018, 15:32
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Re: Is South Africa planning to follow Zimbabwe and destroy its economy?

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Centuries of injustice, mass murders, genocide even (as in Namibia), cruelty, slavery, rape and worse ... and lands taken from the natives, rarely lead to peace and justice at the other end - especially when after such a struggle against a terrible regime, in this case apartheid- leads to little or no change in reality. Go and see what it is like - just drive from the airport to CT - and see the reality of living on the Cape Flats even today. Losing everything means nothing to those who have never had any of it- and can see they never will.

As said, most black africans with decent jobs in CT are from Zimbabwe, not local.



If I remember the video correctly (or the resulting discussion on reddit), the black people that are now claiming the land aren't those who owned the land originally when the settlers took it.


This all happened so long ago that trying to revert it is just silly and asking for trouble.
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Old 03.09.2018, 15:44
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Re: Is South Africa planning to follow Zimbabwe and destroy its economy?

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If I remember the video correctly (or the resulting discussion on reddit), the black people that are now claiming the land aren't those who owned the land originally when the settlers took it.

This all happened so long ago that trying to revert it is just silly and asking for trouble.
The settlers from Europe began their land claims in 1652.

The people who are now living in South Africa have suffered the criss-cross craziness of colonialism including and followed by the desire for ownership and power, by a whole range of governments, also the current one.

The question for South Africa's future, and of this thread, is whether there can be a better way for recovering from those traumata (and Bishop Tutu tried that, in a remarkable way, with his Truth and Reconciliation Commission), from their psychological and economic consequences, to move forward as a unified instead of a divided post-colonial country. If yes, then South Africa could have stable, working farms, and not get into the tragic difficulties of Zimbabwe, with lack of Food.

Trying to revert what happened cannot really be done. Even so, not doing anything at all is really silly, when so many are Angry about the wrongs that were done to their grandparents and parents, and so many are still suffering the consequences now. Not trying to set something right would turn out, I believe, to be "asking for trouble".

The challenge will be to find systems of redressing at least some part of the wrongs that were inflicted and suffered by the previous generations, in some way that makes sense to a sufficiently broad spectrum of the current population, without completely wasting everything for the future.
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  #156  
Old 03.09.2018, 16:03
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Re: Is South Africa planning to follow Zimbabwe and destroy its economy?

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Trying to revert what happened cannot really be done. Even so, not doing anything at all is really silly, when so many are Angry about the wrongs that were done to their grandparents and parents, and so many are still suffering the consequences now. Not trying to set something right would turn out, I believe, to be "asking for trouble".

The challenge will be to find systems of redressing at least some part of the wrongs that were inflicted and suffered by the previous generations, in some way that makes sense to a sufficiently broad spectrum of the current population, without completely wasting everything for the future.
two questions here

1) is parcelling out land to people really what they are demanding,
2) and would it really redress past wrongs and grievances more than it would create new ones? (rather than just converting urban poverty into rural poverty)

Or is it just a revenge-motivated populist proposal?

Maybe there is some other way of compensating people for past wrongs, one that benefits them more directly?

SA could learn, for example, from several EE countries were measures have been taken to compensate people who lost land under Communist era reforms, but in a way that does not overly penalize those who may have bought that land legitimately.
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  #157  
Old 03.09.2018, 16:04
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Re: Is South Africa planning to follow Zimbabwe and destroy its economy?

The problem is that the Government obviously has no money to pay a decent compensation to the current owners of the land.
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Old 03.09.2018, 16:08
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Re: Is South Africa planning to follow Zimbabwe and destroy its economy?

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two question here


Or is it just a revenge-motivated populist proposal?

AFAIK: Pretty much that.
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Old 04.09.2018, 15:34
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Re: Is South Africa planning to follow Zimbabwe and destroy its economy?

http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/unt...a-1226462.html


"Agricultural production output: minus 29.2%".


Ouch.
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Old 04.09.2018, 16:31
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Re: Is South Africa planning to follow Zimbabwe and destroy its economy?

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http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/unt...a-1226462.html


"Agricultural production output: minus 29.2%".


Ouch.
...due (at least mainly) to drought and hail damage.
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